The Red/Grey Chips Weren't Thermite After All

[eots]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNOM_U5UM6Q]THERMITE CUTTING STEEL - VALIDATED - EXPERIMENTALLY DEMONSTRATED - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Rat in the Hat]

 

[eots]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlPweD6R3Cc&feature=related]911 Polls - You Are Not Alone - YouTube[/ame]

 

[daws101]

THERMITE CUTTING STEEL - VALIDATED - EXPERIMENTALLY DEMONSTRATED - YouTube

 

[daws101]

911 Polls - You Are Not Alone - YouTube

true but your numbers were tiny to start with and are dwindling more everyday....

 

[Capstone]

Let's look at the experiments Truthers do, and compare with Dr. Millette's experiments, shall we.

Better yet, let's compare some of Millette's conclusions to those of Harrit and Jones.

From here:

So the only question I was asking myself when I scanned through Dr Millette's study was, did Dr Millette confirm the DATA in Harrit et al?

With regard to the physical structure and elemental composition of the chips, he basically did. He confirmed the EDS signature. He confirmed the presence of iron oxide nanoparticles and Al+Si plate-like particles. And he confirmed the organic carbon matrix.

What he didn't confirm was the claim that they ignite when heated and undergo an exothermic chemical reaction and produce molten iron spheres - which is, in my opinion, the most damning fact. But that's because he didn't test that! What he did instead was "ash" the chips by exposing them them to 400°C temperatures for one hour. Since this is 30 celcius degrees below the ignition temperature, it's not surprising he got the results that he did.

In order to claim that the red/gray chips are not nanothermite, Dr Millette knocks down a straw man. He notes that the nanocomposites documented in LLNL reports contain round elemental aluminium particles, the red/gray chips do not. Therefore, he concludes, the chips are not nanothermite, or even ordinary thermite. But all it really proves is that the red/gray chips are not the exact mixture of nanothermite documented in LLNL reports. But we never said they were. We've always claimed them to be A FORM of nanothermite. And until the claim that they react exothermically when heated to 430°C and produce molten iron is refuted, the nanothermite hypothesis is still scientifically valid.

In summary, there are several upsides to Dr Millette's work:

1. He's confirmed that the red/gray chips actually do exist.
2. He's confirmed that they were present in the WTC dust, even in samples independent of Steven Jones'.
3. He's confirmed the basic elemental composition and physical structure of the chips.
4. He's debunked the primer paint hypothesis: [...]

That's the beauty of truth; even the best attempts to subvert it ...are bound to confirm it instead.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

as usual,as he does in everyone of his posts all the time,Rat gets his ass handed to him on a platter. a very simple and easy thing to do when someone has to resort to lies to try and save face in his posts when he knows he is defeated.

 

[Capstone]

Bottom line: in the benefit v. cost analysis, the only justification I can see for Millette staying below the ignition temperature reported by Harrit ...is the very real prospect of watching his predetermined conclusion explode in his face.

 

[Rat in the Hat]

Bottom line: in the benefit v. cost analysis, the only justification I can see for Millette staying below the ignition temperature reported by Harrit ...is the very real prospect of watching his predetermined conclusion explode in his face.

And the only reason I can see why Herrit and Jones did not release their FTIR results was because that test did blow up in their faces. Why else would they fail to produce them after saying they would back in 2009?

And, as to the DSC test, which chip is Dr. Millette supposed to test to replicate the results accurately? Please let us know. And don't bother to ask the Herrit team, they won't be able to answer. Jeff Farrer didn't think it was anywhere near important to note which chip he tested. Yep, really thorough scientific method on his part, right?

 

[Capstone]

Rat,

I'll leave the explanations for the FTIR results and for any methodological sloppiness on Farrer's part to the scientists themselves. Rest assured, a detailed response to the MVA's study (and to any legitimate criticism it levels directly or indirectly at the paper published by Harrit's team) is already in the works, and it aint gonna take 3 years to complete it.

For my part, I'll simply reinforce the charge that Millette's study "knocks down a straw man".

Harrit's paper claims:

Separation of components using methyl ethyl ketone demonstrated that elemental aluminum is present. [...] Red/gray chips were soaked in methyl ethyl ketone (MEK) for 55 hours with frequent agitation and subsequently dried in air over several days. The chips showed significant swelling of the red layer, but with no apparent dissolution. In marked contrast, paint chips softened and partly dissolved when similarly soaked in MEK. It was discovered in this process that a significant migration and segregation of aluminum had occurred in the red-chip material. This allowed us to assess whether some of the aluminum was in elemental form. [...] Focusing the electron beam on a region rich in silicon, located in Fig. (15e), we find silicon and oxygen and very little else (Fig. 16). Evidently the solvent has disrupted the matrix holding the various particles, allowing some migration and separation of the components. This is a significant result for it means that the aluminum and silicon are not bound chemically.

The next XEDS spectrum (Fig. 17) was acquired from a region that showed a high concentration of aluminum. Using a conventional quantification routine, it was found that the aluminum significantly exceeded the oxygen present (approximately a 3:1 ratio). Thus, while some of the aluminum may be oxidized, there is insufficient oxygen present to account for all of the aluminum; some of the aluminum must therefore exist in elemental form in the red material. This is an important result. Aluminum particles are covered with a layer of aluminum oxide irrespective of size, thus it is reasonable to find a significant oxygen content with the aluminum, given the very high surface area to volume ratio of these very fine particles. (emphasis Capstone's)

Millette's paper claims:

SEM-EDS phase mapping (using multivariate statistical analysis) of the red layer after exposure to MEK for 55 hours did not show evidence of individual aluminum particles (Appendix G). [...] There is no evidence of individual elemental aluminum particles of any size in the red/gray chips, therefore the red layer of the red/gray chips is not thermite or nano-thermite. (emphasis Capstone's)

See the distinction?

Harrit's team didn't observe "individual aluminum particles" either; they inferred the presence of elemental aluminum from the migration that showed the aluminum and silicon in the red layer weren't chemically bound to one another ...and from the deficiency of oxygen to account for the total amount of aluminum present in the samples.

 

[Capstone]

Setting aside the straw man, Millette's team could've circumvented some of the early criticism aimed at its own study, had they sufficiently heated some r/g chips from each of their own 4 samples. Why they apparently chose not to do so ...is a scientific mystery in itself. And that's a point that can't be overstated.

Kinda makes you wonder as to the possibility of any unreported anomalies...

 

[Rat in the Hat]

Setting aside the straw man, Millette's team could've circumvented some of the early criticism aimed at its own study, had they sufficiently heated some r/g chips from each of their own 4 samples. Why they apparently chose not to do so ...is a scientific mystery in itself. And that's a point that can't be overstated.

Kinda makes you wonder as to the possibility of any unreported anomalies...

Capstone,

In replies from inquiries, Dr. Millette has stated that he didn't see any point in testing the ignition point of the red layer just to see at what temperature the primer paint would burn in an oxygen atmosphere. But he is willing to do so, if someone is willing to front the $3,000 it would take to do the proper tests.

Are you game??

Also, as I posted before, he would also need to know precisely which chip Jeff Ferrer tested to get the most accurate comparison result. But that is impossible, due to Dr. Ferrer's failure to notate which one it was.




p.s., just as a side note, I would like to thank you for your calm, rational discussion on this subject. It has been a very refreshing change from the usual "shill", "agent" and "someone farted" exchanges that are prevalent in this sub-forum. You have my respect.

 

[eots]

setting aside the straw man, millette's team could've circumvented some of the early criticism aimed at its own study, had they sufficiently heated some r/g chips from each of their own 4 samples. Why they apparently chose not to do so ...is a scientific mystery in itself. And that's a point that can't be overstated.

Kinda makes you wonder as to the possibility of any unreported anomalies...

capstone,

in replies from inquiries, dr. Millette has stated that he didn't see any point in testing the ignition point of the red layer just to see at what temperature the primer paint would burn in an oxygen atmosphere. But he is willing to do so, if someone is willing to front the $3,000 it would take to do the proper tests.

Are you game??

Also, as i posted before, he would also need to know precisely which chip jeff ferrer tested to get the most accurate comparison result. But that is impossible, due to dr. Ferrer's failure to notate which one it was.




P.s., just as a side note, i would like to thank you for your calm, rational discussion on this subject. It has been a very refreshing change from the usual "shill", "agent" and "someone farted" exchanges that are prevalent in this sub-forum. You have my respect.

suddenly agent rat acts reasonable and sincere..this must be the face he puts on when trying to talk gullible debwunkers into fronting cash..lol

 

[Rat in the Hat]

setting aside the straw man, millette's team could've circumvented some of the early criticism aimed at its own study, had they sufficiently heated some r/g chips from each of their own 4 samples. Why they apparently chose not to do so ...is a scientific mystery in itself. And that's a point that can't be overstated.

Kinda makes you wonder as to the possibility of any unreported anomalies...

capstone,

in replies from inquiries, dr. Millette has stated that he didn't see any point in testing the ignition point of the red layer just to see at what temperature the primer paint would burn in an oxygen atmosphere. But he is willing to do so, if someone is willing to front the $3,000 it would take to do the proper tests.

Are you game??

Also, as i posted before, he would also need to know precisely which chip jeff ferrer tested to get the most accurate comparison result. But that is impossible, due to dr. Ferrer's failure to notate which one it was.




P.s., just as a side note, i would like to thank you for your calm, rational discussion on this subject. It has been a very refreshing change from the usual "shill", "agent" and "someone farted" exchanges that are prevalent in this sub-forum. You have my respect.

suddenly agent rat acts reasonable and sincere..this must be the face he puts on when trying to talk gullible debwunkers into fronting cash..lol

Or perhap it may be the cost that most labs would ask to perform a proper analysis of the 6 different types of "super-duper-ultra-micro-mini-femto-nano-thermXte" chips that "hide the FTIR" Herrit & Jones, and Jimmy "Why the fuck should I write down which of the potato chips I tested" Ferrer spewed about in their Bentham "peer-review"

 

[eots]

capstone,

in replies from inquiries, dr. Millette has stated that he didn't see any point in testing the ignition point of the red layer just to see at what temperature the primer paint would burn in an oxygen atmosphere. But he is willing to do so, if someone is willing to front the $3,000 it would take to do the proper tests.

Are you game??

Also, as i posted before, he would also need to know precisely which chip jeff ferrer tested to get the most accurate comparison result. But that is impossible, due to dr. Ferrer's failure to notate which one it was.




P.s., just as a side note, i would like to thank you for your calm, rational discussion on this subject. It has been a very refreshing change from the usual "shill", "agent" and "someone farted" exchanges that are prevalent in this sub-forum. You have my respect.

suddenly agent rat acts reasonable and sincere..this must be the face he puts on when trying to talk gullible debwunkers into fronting cash..lol

Or perhap it may be the cost that most labs would ask to perform a proper analysis of the 6 different types of "super-duper-ultra-micro-mini-femto-nano-thermXte" chips that "hide the FTIR" Herrit & Jones, and Jimmy "Why the fuck should I write down which of the potato chips I tested" Ferrer spewed about in their Bentham "peer-review"

I dont think so...sounds like a debwunker cash grab to me

 

[Rat in the Hat]

suddenly agent rat acts reasonable and sincere..this must be the face he puts on when trying to talk gullible debwunkers into fronting cash..lol

Or perhap it may be the cost that most labs would ask to perform a proper analysis of the 6 different types of "super-duper-ultra-micro-mini-femto-nano-thermXte" chips that "hide the FTIR" Herrit & Jones, and Jimmy "Why the fuck should I write down which of the potato chips I tested" Ferrer spewed about in their Bentham "peer-review"

I dont think so...sounds like a debwunker cash grab to me

Put up, or shut up, Gage-dupe.

Or are you afraid to put YOUR money where your mouth is????

ETA: Before you decide, consider this. Box Boi Dickey G has NEVER funded an independent investigation into any aspect of 9/11. Why is that?????

 

[eots]

Or perhap it may be the cost that most labs would ask to perform a proper analysis of the 6 different types of "super-duper-ultra-micro-mini-femto-nano-thermXte" chips that "hide the FTIR" Herrit & Jones, and Jimmy "Why the fuck should I write down which of the potato chips I tested" Ferrer spewed about in their Bentham "peer-review"

I dont think so...sounds like a debwunker cash grab to me

Put up, or shut up, Gage-dupe.

Or are you afraid to put YOUR money where your mouth is????

why would I give money to some broke ass Czech tele -tubbie / self proclaimed amateur debunker and his crew ..he can buy his own hot dogs and vodka

 

[Rat in the Hat]

I dont think so...sounds like a debwunker cash grab to me

Put up, or shut up, Gage-dupe.

Or are you afraid to put YOUR money where your mouth is????

why would I give money to some broke ass Czech tele -tubbie / self proclaimed armature debunker and his crew ..he can buy his own hot dogs and vodka

Which of these members of MVA SCIENTIFIC CONSULTANTS are you calling a "tele-tubbie"?

And, just for comparison, why don't you post a picture of yourself without splattering a bunch of warpaint on yourself???

 

[uscitizen]

The towers had thermites? No wonder they fell so easially.

 

[eots]

Put up, or shut up, Gage-dupe.

Or are you afraid to put YOUR money where your mouth is????

why would I give money to some broke ass Czech tele -tubbie / self proclaimed armature debunker and his crew ..he can buy his own hot dogs and vodka

Which of these members of MVA SCIENTIFIC CONSULTANTS are you calling a "tele-tubbie"?
it says they have a "staff" of 18, fuck they could raise the money in a office pool . how hurtin is this paper tiger ??

And, just for comparison, why don't you post a picture of yourself without splattering a bunch of warpaint on yourself???

I think you know who I'm talking about but regardless 3 grand should be nothing to high rollers like MVA Scientific Consultants ...