The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?

[Phoenall]

Sorry Challenger but your consistent inability to address any of the points presented isn't very convincing.

Happy to address a point once you make one worth addressing.

UNWRA is irrelevant to resolving who is indigenous to Palestine, but that said, the refugees UNWRA deals with nevertheless have a much greater claim to being indigenous than the Russians, Poles, Hungarians and other Eastern Europeans who came over on the boat in the 20th century.

The UNWRA does not define refugees. They only define who qualifies for aid.

The UNWRA does define who are Palestinians refugees and they pass the data on to the UN. This results in the UN allocating so much money to the UNWRA. The UN sets the criteria for refugee status, and one of those is 2 years residency in the country, because 90% of the alleged refugees were arrivals in the 1947 to 1949 time slot they did not meet the UN crir=teria and so UNWRA was formed. No other group has access to UNWRA funds and help but Palestinian muslims.

 

[Phoenall]

Also your assumption ( again offered with no basis in fact ) that the returnees were all from Europe is demonstrably wrong

Although Wiki isn't our best source its easy so I'll use it cause I doubt you read the links anyway LOL ;--)

Only about 35% of the Judaic population in Israel are from Europe ;--)

Demographics of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So again the baseless claims and assumptions are pretty easily proven false. Its actually a pretty easy game of find the flaw as the palestinian narrative seems entirely based on false information and revisionist history.

Really.

Check the Palestine Census of 1931 and when you discount that as "false information" and "revisionist history" Have a look at the Israeli Ministry of Aliya and Immigrant Absorbtion website which describes the various waves of European colonists who came over on the boat up until 1939, when you do the maths you find the figures are fairly close between the two sites up until the 5th Aliya. The Israeli government site points out that on average no more than 10% of Jewish colonists/immigrants came from outside Europe up until 1939, mainly from Yemen and Iraq. This means that 90% of Zionist colonists from 1882 to 1939 were indigenous Europeans. Oh, in case you are wondering, the 5th Aliya which boosted the colonialist population dramatically all came from Europe according to the Israeli site;
"The year 1929 began with signs of economical revival, which stimulated a new influx of immigrants known as the Fifth Aliyah. During the period of the Fifth Aliyah, which continued until the outbreak of the Second World War, more than a quarter of a million immigrants arrived from all parts of Europe, including Western and Central Europe."

https://ia800304.us.archive.org/18/...ndAdministrativeAreas/PalestineCensus1931.pdf

Know Israel

When you've done that, you can crawl back into your Hasbara bubble and get back to making things up for your masters.

And what about the 3 Ottoman head counts that show that the arab muslims were in the minority prior to WW1



CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Jerusalem After 1291
"...Present condition of the City: (1907 edition)

Jerusalem (El Quds) is the capital of a sanjak and the seat of a mutasarrif directly dependent on the Sublime Porte. In the administration of the sanjak the mutasarrif is assisted by a council called majlis ida ra; the city has a municipal government (majlis baladiye) presided over by a mayor. The total population is estimated at 66,000. The Turkish census of 1905, which counts only Ottoman subjects, gives these figures:
Jews, 45,000; Moslems, 8,000; Orthodox Christians, 6000; Latins, 2500; Armenians, 950; Protestants, 800; Melkites, 250; Copts, 150; Abyssinians, 100; Jacobites, 100; Catholic Syrians, 50. During the Nineteenth century large suburbs to the north and east have grown up, chiefly for the use of the Jewish colony. These suburbs contain nearly Half the present population...""

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Growth of Jerusalem 1838-Present

....... Jews Muslims Christians Total
1838 6,000 5,000 3,000 14,000
1844 7,120 5,760 3,390 16,270 ..... ..The First Official Ottoman Census
1876 12,000 7,560 5,470 25,030 .... .....Second """"""""""
1905 40,000 8,000 10,900 58,900 ....... Third/last, detailed in CathEncyc above
1948 99,320 36,680 31,300 167,300
1990 353,200 124,200 14,000 491,400
1992 385,000 150,000 15,000 550,000

http://www.testimony-magazine.org/jerusalem/bring.htm





You must be wrong as you are deflecting again and resorting to your hasbara claims

 

[Phoenall]

You're catching on

Now if you can only figure out why. Of course its amazingly simple and we've explained it to you a thousand times but you just don't seem to be able to grasp the concept.

Read back a little and see if you can figure out just who the indigenous people are in Judea ;--)

Fuck you!

I know why the Pals can't return, it's because Israel doesn't respect international law. And since you defend Israel's position, that means you don't respect international law, either.

So stop talking about this respect BS, because you obviously demonstrate you have none.

So which international law says that the Palestinians have the right to claim property they never owned. What year was it enacted and when was this made international law. The fact that you ignore and deny the International law enacted in 1923 that sets out the granting of part of Palestine to the Jews as their NATIONal home and delineates the boundaries of thatpart of Palestine means that you are the one with no respect for international law and will go to any lengths to show your hatred of the Jews that hence forth will be know as Judeaophobia, or the mentally debilitating abject fear of anything related to the Jews

 

[Phoenall]

Kinda throws a wrench into all this diatribe about Arab Muslims being indigenous to the Canaan valley area. Whoops, there's that term again ;--) did you ever look up just where they valley is and its relation to the mandated area ?

Comprehension not your strongpoint is it? I'll write it once again, slowly for you. There is no evidence that the indigenous people of the area called Palestine were ever displaced in any significant numbers by the Arab conquerors. Arab nobles/chieftains took over vacant estates left by the Roman nobles who chose to leave rather than pay taxes or convert, the peasantry remained in place. Over the next century or so these people took up Arabic language and customs and voluntarily converted to Islam (mainly to avoid taxes). If you can demonstrate otherwise, please do.

Your funny.

Your argument is nonexistent, you don't provide a single corroborating source and so far everything you've claimed had been demonstrably false. ( through the use of even just basic source material ) so yeah, not feeling any tremendous inclination to simply take your word for it. LOL

That just translates as, "Oh sh*t, I can't demonstrate otherwise, I'd better just try to use the old tactic of making childish accusations and hope this goes away..." another Hasbara fail by Busted1

Yep in the wrong again so I had better claim hasbara hoping that it will silence the opposition

 

[Phoenall]

Although the Sioux people may find the idea of returning to an ancestral homeland appealing, modern government doesn't work that way. The Ashkenazi Zionists who created modern Israel based their activity on Bible stories Lord Balfour learned in Sunday School.

Even if historically accurate, the Torah is no basis for displacement of millions of non-Jewish residents. Add to that the fact that the "history" of Old Testament has been shown to be myth, not fact and the injustice done by European Jews to Palestinians is even more cruel and absurd.

History is filled with injustice, just ask the Sioux people. The big difference between the West Bank and the Great Sious Reservation is that the West Bank is surrounded by 400,000,000 Muslims rich with oil money and armed to the teeth with American weapons.

Nebuchadnezzar booted out the Jews 2,500 years ago. Titus did it again 500 years later. This third attempt to set up a Jewish state in Palestine isn't going to work any better than the last two. God gave the Jews a land of milk and honey in exchange for keeping the Covenant. When the Jews abandoned the Covenant, God cancelled their deed to Palestine. No human power can reverse the Will of God.

How about recent events like the setting up of UNWRA in 1949 because the vast majority of Palestinians did not meet the criteria for being classed as refugees. They had less than 2 years residency on the land so could not be refugees and the UN had to invent a refugee agency for the arab muslims not allowed to return to their homes in arab league nations.

 

[Phoenall]

And of course you have some supporting evidence for that rather amazing claim Monty ?

I have posted the links to the source immigration data from the UN archives several times. It is just fact that close to 100% of the Jews in Palestine were from Europe. Reposting the links would be contrary to the rules.

No you have posted the novel produced by a committee that is stored in the UN archives, this does not mean that it is factual

 

[Phoenall]

And of course you have some supporting evidence for that rather amazing claim Monty ?

I have posted the links to the source immigration data from the UN archives several times. It is just fact that close to 100% of the Jews in Palestine were from Europe. Reposting the links would be contrary to the rules.

You mean the ones from just one year ? I saw those, classic cherrypicking. Any chance you can show all years ? Because as we all know by now only about 35% of todays Israeli's are returnees from Europe

We know that nearly 100% of the colonizing Jews were from Europe at the time of partition.

Do we, and how do you arrive at that conclusion from just one document sold as a novel by a committee

 

[Phoenall]

he's also ignoring the fact that these people are returning to their native land vs colonizing like the Arab Muslims

No, the Jews that colonized Palestine were from Europe. It was not the European's native land. The Muslims and Christian Palestinians are the native people of Palestine. That they converted to Islam or Christianity and adopted Arabic as their language does not change the DNA of the native people.

Then explain why they were evicted from Palestine in 1099 and only re-migrated in the later part of the 19C after the Jews had been invited to colonise and make the desert bloom. Then why the UN had to invent a refugee agency just for arab muslims in 1949 because they did not meet the criteria they had set. This shows that the numbers of Palestinians that arrived between 1947 and 1949 amounted to the numbers of refugees on the UNWRA books at the end of the war of independence.

So moving to Palestine as part of an arab league invasion force does not make them indigenous to the area and able to claim land that they have never seen before in their lives.

 

[abu afak]

... And what about the 3 Ottoman head counts that show that the arab muslims were in the minority prior to WW1
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Jerusalem After 1291
"...Present condition of the City: (1907 edition)

Jerusalem (El Quds) is the capital of a sanjak and the seat of a mutasarrif directly dependent on the Sublime Porte. In the administration of the sanjak the mutasarrif is assisted by a council called majlis ida ra; the city has a municipal government (majlis baladiye) presided over by a mayor. The total population is estimated at 66,000. The Turkish census of 1905, which counts only Ottoman subjects, gives these figures:
Jews, 45,000; Moslems, 8,000; Orthodox Christians, 6000; Latins, 2500; Armenians, 950; Protestants, 800; Melkites, 250; Copts, 150; Abyssinians, 100; Jacobites, 100; Catholic Syrians, 50. During the Nineteenth century large suburbs to the north and east have grown up, chiefly for the use of the Jewish colony. These suburbs contain nearly Half the present population...""

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Growth of Jerusalem 1838-Present

....... Jews Muslims Christians Total
1838 6,000 5,000 3,000 14,000
1844 7,120 5,760 3,390 16,270 ..... ..The First Official Ottoman Census
1876 12,000 7,560 5,470 25,030 .... .....Second """"""""""
1905 40,000 8,000 10,900 58,900 ....... Third/last, detailed in CathEncyc above
1948 99,320 36,680 31,300 167,300
1990 353,200 124,200 14,000 491,400
1992 385,000 150,000 15,000 550,000

http://www.testimony-magazine.org/jerusalem/bring.htm

You must be wrong as you are deflecting again and resorting to your hasbara claims

Actually, that's a Direct PLAGIARIZATION of one of my many repeated posts.
ie HERE in July 2011
What was the impact of the Zionists on Palestine?
or 5 Times as "mbig" on DebatePolitics.com since 2009.
Google
and in 2008 on Christian Forums
"Right to Exist"?
As Abu Afak on Irish Indymedia 2004
Jerusalem Growth: 1838- - Indymedia Ireland

Complete with those unique Two links, (Incl the second now 10-yr-dead one from when I first posted it one Israel Forum 11 years ago), the portions Bolded, and commentary pointing out that the Testimony magazine data are the 3 Ottoman Censuses ("abu"), the amount of - - - - these between links, and these ..... in every spot, and words/sub-headings that do Not exist on Catholic Encyclopedia for many years (and MY words that Never existed there like "1907 edition")

The only thing you Nefariously and Dishonestly Omitted was the "abu" or "mbig" after the parenthesis in the census numbers on the second link.
At least the Second time too: Palestinians Hold The Key To Their Own Future
Geez, and I never even got "thanks" from you for anything.

Please cite /CREDIT me in the future.
abu afak/mbig

 

[Boston1]

The appropriate response to uncivilized messages on the forum is report the offender. Not to descend into similar uncivilized diatribe.

Your prison logic simply doesn't wash in polite society.

Also the body of your post is hardly credible

Quote

According to amateur historian Tsvi Misinai

End Quote

Wiki, amateurs and racists are your typical sources. Why am I not surprised

You use the report button as a weapon, which makes you a fucking hypocrite as well. You sit there and say the most fucked up shit to other people, then turnaround and try to silence your critics.

You're one of the most uncivilized posters at this website and you can also take that arrogant, condescending prose of yours and shove it up your ass! You're a phony and a fake.

All you got is ad hominems; you certainly can't debate worth a shit. Because if you could, you would specifically address the points in my post. Instead, you make these bullshit ad hominems and then act like you've just made a point.

You claimed there was more than DNA to show a link, that there were cultural differences. Well, I gave you a whole list of cultural similarities between Palestinian's and Jews that you were too pussy to address.

I use the system as it was intended to be used, rather than as a soap box for some personal grudge and although a healthy discussion is the essence of our time here I don't believe this area of the site was intended for over emotional profane laced outbursts directed against other members.

Basically the children have their space, separated from the adults, and you keep jumping the fence and throwing a tantrum.

As for DNA I didn't say "there was more than DNA" what I said was that its very easy for a bias researcher to show all kinds of things with DNA including that our genome also has 99% in common with a chimp but I wouldn't drop a nation of chimps in the middle of Mecca simply because some fool insists their indigenous. Might want to brush up on your own debating skills there Koko.

Oh and that amateur historian, if I can be so cavalier with the term historian, you referenced. Really ? Is that the best you can do is now add "amateur" historians to your list of racists and wiki quotes. Again, its not I, that needs to brush up on debating skills.

If you insist on discussing DNA evidence I'd suggest you first go check out "The Genetic Literacy Project" And then begin actually reading some studies, like

Jews Are a 'Race,' Genes Reveal

or

The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses

You might ( and thats a huge maybe ) then have the background to comprehend this one which I'm sure you'd ( instead of actually understanding it ) jump up and down and cry I win along with some litany of profane invectives.

Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes

However the essence of the argument about DNA isn't that there no similarities within a geological location, its that genetic similarities are somewhat irrelevant when it comes to tribal and cultural identities. No matter how you slice it, we know the Judaic culture developed in Judea and we know the Arabic culture developed on the Arabian Peninsula. So when it comes time to design a system of states that most fairly represents the native peoples of the area then it only stands to reason that we allow for a Judaic state within its ancestral boundaries. Just like we've allowed for Arabic states within their ancestral boundaries.

The Arabs have Syria and Jordan, Egypt as well as a host of others from the colonial period, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, the list is endless. So why not the Judaic people ?

From there, the only argument you present is one of bigotry and racism. In which case you foam and spit and cry foul that the Judaic people exist at all.

If you really want to continue to insist that the pali's are so similar to the Israeli's according to the DNA then we must also agree that they are quite nearly identical to chimpanzees and we should be throwing Muslims out of Mecca to make way for a Chimpanzee state.

Best of luck with that ;--)

Cheers

 

[Boston1]

Sorry Challenger but your consistent inability to address any of the points presented isn't very convincing.

Happy to address a point once you make one worth addressing.

UNWRA is irrelevant to resolving who is indigenous to Palestine, but that said, the refugees UNWRA deals with nevertheless have a much greater claim to being indigenous than the Russians, Poles, Hungarians and other Eastern Europeans who came over on the boat in the 20th century.

The UNWRA does not define refugees. They only define who qualifies for aid.

The UNWRA does define who are Palestinians refugees and they pass the data on to the UN. This results in the UN allocating so much money to the UNWRA. The UN sets the criteria for refugee status, and one of those is 2 years residency in the country, because 90% of the alleged refugees were arrivals in the 1947 to 1949 time slot they did not meet the UN crir=teria and so UNWRA was formed. No other group has access to UNWRA funds and help but Palestinian muslims.

Bingo

They knew that the immigration issue was going to jump up and bite them in the ass so they side stepped it and reinvented the term refugee. The move created such an uproar that a few years later the UN was forced to define what a real refugee was or have to admit literally millions of people to the roles of refugee status, and they simply couldn't afford it.

The UNWRA then went on to say that descendants of refugees were also refugees and eligible for aid, why ? Because this whole UN aid thing turns out to be a pretty nice gig and nearly 100% of all UNWRA employees were these so called palestinian refugees. No reason to screw up a good thing, free food, shelter, cloths, that damn refugee card was worth a fortune.

And so began the trade in refugee cards

But again no matter how you slice it the Arab Muslims that colonized Judea in the late dark ages hardly constitute an indigenous people in Judea. On the Arabian Peninsula they might be considered indigenous, but not in Judea.

 

[Coyote]

The colonists are the people that come from elsewhere to colonize a foreign territory. The people of Palestine have always lived in Palestine. The Zionists came from Europe, another continent. That's just a fact.

The Jewish people are not colonizing foreign territory. They are returning to the territory to which they are indigenous. Returning home. Right of return. You are familiar with this concept, no?

The only people who have a right to decide who is included in their group is the group in question. The concepts are self-identification and acceptance by the group. Therefore, ALL Jews who self-identify and who are accepted into the group belong to the Jewish people and are therefore indigenous to the place where the Jewish people originated.

Removing people from a territory does not remove their belonging to a group.

People need to keep that in mind when it comes to the Palestinians instead of working so hard to make them non-existant.

 

[Coyote]

I want to clarify a little confusion about moderation - IP is Zone 2, flaming IS allowed as long as there is content related to the topic. The site wide rules say foul language is loosely tolerated. Those who tend to use strong language need to realize that there is a limit but the bar is low (that's the loosely tolerate part) and that there must be material related to the topic, that is more than lip service to allow the flames (which folks are doing a good job at). When foul is offensive - you can always put the person on ignore.

 

[Boston1]

This isn't hard work, Coyote, its actually already done, basic history is about all it is. There simply is no distinct palestinian culture, its virtually indistinguishable from Arab Muslim culture as a whole.

Even if someone wants to concede the issue its irrelevant as the Arab Muslims have more than fair representation in multiple states of the region. No reason at all the Judaic people shouldn't also be represented.

 

[Coyote]

This isn't hard work, Coyote, its actually already done, basic history is about all it is. There simply is no distinct palestinian culture, its virtually indistinguishable from Arab Muslim culture as a whole.

Even if someone wants to concede the issue its irrelevant as the Arab Muslims have more than fair representation in multiple states of the region. No reason at all the Judaic people shouldn't also be represented.

I think you and I will have to agree to disagree there. The Judaic people ARE represented, by a Jewish state.

 

[montelatici]

This isn't hard work, Coyote, its actually already done, basic history is about all it is. There simply is no distinct palestinian culture, its virtually indistinguishable from Arab Muslim culture as a whole.

Even if someone wants to concede the issue its irrelevant as the Arab Muslims have more than fair representation in multiple states of the region. No reason at all the Judaic people shouldn't also be represented.

Palestinian culture (and history) is specific to the Palestinians. Trying to claim that Palestinian culture is indistinguishable from the general Arab Muslim culture, firstly this ignores the fact that denies that within the Palestinian population world-wide, diaspora included 35% are Christian, not just Muslim. And, like Muslim Palestinians would like to have an ancestral homeland and possibly return to their ancestral homeland. Palestine is not the ancestral homeland of European Zionists.



Secondly, your contention is so idiotic that if applied to any other people, e.g. the Hispanic people, you would deny that there is any difference culturally between a Colombian and an Argentine.

 

[Boston1]

This isn't hard work, Coyote, its actually already done, basic history is about all it is. There simply is no distinct palestinian culture, its virtually indistinguishable from Arab Muslim culture as a whole.

Even if someone wants to concede the issue its irrelevant as the Arab Muslims have more than fair representation in multiple states of the region. No reason at all the Judaic people shouldn't also be represented.

I think you and I will have to agree to disagree there. The Judaic people ARE represented, by a Jewish state.

They are now, and they should be, its the ONLY Jewish state. The Arabs on the other hand have something like 49 states, I'd have to go count them up but if anything the Arab Muslims are over represented, and the Judaic people, under.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

This isn't hard work, Coyote, its actually already done, basic history is about all it is. There simply is no distinct palestinian culture, its virtually indistinguishable from Arab Muslim culture as a whole.

Even if someone wants to concede the issue its irrelevant as the Arab Muslims have more than fair representation in multiple states of the region. No reason at all the Judaic people shouldn't also be represented.

I think you and I will have to agree to disagree there. The Judaic people ARE represented, by a Jewish state.

They are now, and they should be, its the ONLY Jewish state. The Arabs on the other hand have something like 49 states, I'd have to go count them up but if anything the Arab Muslims are over represented, and the Judaic people, under.

There are about 22 Arab countries and 57 Muslim countries.

 

[montelatici]

The Palestinian people have no state, they are underrepresented. Palestinians follow different religions, not just Islam. Can't you get that through your thick skull.

 

[Shusha]

I think you and I will have to agree to disagree there. The Judaic people ARE represented, by a Jewish state.

Yes, but the gist of this thread, and indeed the foundational ideology of the entire conflict is that the Jewish people have no rights to self-determination and self-rule and that the Jewish National Home should be dismantled.. The arguments made here by myself and Boston are primarily to counter that line of thinking, both because it is the morally correct thing to do and because its the only way to peace.

Boston is also trying to point out that the Palestinian people also already have representation and self-rule in Palestine -- Jordan. They already have a State. Boston is not wrong on that. He is absolutely correct. What they want now is at least one (realistically now two) more States. Part of the reason they want those two more States, not the entire reason, but part, is to accomplish the goal described above -- to dismantle the Jewish National Home.

However, I add that, regardless of their origins and the length of time they have existed as a distinct people, the West Bank and Gaza Palestinians are one now and because of that must be addressed. The only question is how to address them. I don't think Boston (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) objects to self-determination for a Palestinian people -- he just doesn't think it should be carved out of Israel.