The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?

[Shusha]

Um. The same way the Lakota nation (as an example) can be surrounded by European colonized nations?

I used to date a girl from the Pueblo nation; man, she had a temper. I also dated a little Jewess, who was a total psycho in bed. Didn't see that coming?

You're right, Zionists from Europe, are now indigenous to Palestine.

Let's hook up! A man should only be married 4 days a week.

The Jewish people, no matter where they are currently living, are indigenous to Israel. Just like a Lakota can move to Quebec and still be Lakota. And her descendants will also still be Lakota.

Also I live in Canada, and I'm Irish and Scots:

 

[Billo_Really]

The Jewish people, no matter where they are currently living, are indigenous to Israel. Just like a Lakota can move to Quebec and still be Lakota. And her descendants will also still be Lakota.

Also I live in Canada, and I'm Irish and Scots:

My my, what a small world, I'm Irish to.

As far as being indigenous to Israel...

Zionists are indigenous to Israel, because Israel didn't exist until
May 15, 1948.​

As far as being indigenous to that area...

If the Jews that are indigenous to that area, then the Palestinian's are also indigenous to that area, as well, for they are both the same people.

According to amateur historian Tsvi Misinai, many Jews and Palestinians share not only DNA, but also customs and even names.

"We are of the same race and blood, and cooperation will bring great prosperity to the land," wrote Emir Faisal to Felix Frankfurter in 1917.

"Faisal's paternal line was Hashemite...meaning he was directly descended from Muhammad. But the mother of his maternal grandfather, King On, was descended from a family of forced Jewish converts to Islam that immigrated to the east bank of the Jordan, later returning to one of the villages west of the Jordan."

90 percent of all Palestinians are descended from the Jews.​

My my, it is a small world after all.

​

 

[Boston1]

The Jewish people, no matter where they are currently living, are indigenous to Israel. Just like a Lakota can move to Quebec and still be Lakota. And her descendants will also still be Lakota.

Also I live in Canada, and I'm Irish and Scots:

My my, what a small world, I'm Irish to.

As far as being indigenous to Israel...

Zionists are indigenous to Israel, because Israel didn't exist until
May 15, 1948.​

As far as being indigenous to that area...

If the Jews that are indigenous to that area, then the Palestinian's are also indigenous to that area, as well, for they are both the same people.

According to amateur historian Tsvi Misinai, many Jews and Palestinians share not only DNA, but also customs and even names.

"We are of the same race and blood, and cooperation will bring great prosperity to the land," wrote Emir Faisal to Felix Frankfurter in 1917.

"Faisal's paternal line was Hashemite...meaning he was directly descended from Muhammad. But the mother of his maternal grandfather, King On, was descended from a family of forced Jewish converts to Islam that immigrated to the east bank of the Jordan, later returning to one of the villages west of the Jordan."

90 percent of all Palestinians are descended from the Jews.​

My my, it is a small world after all.

​

LOL

I don't think you'd know a haplogroup from a psychgroup, although you might be a lot more familiar with that last. I'm damn sure you don't have any idea what a SNP is or that the human genome shares about 99% of its gene structure with that of a chimp.

Or are you suggesting we create a national homeland for chimps right smack in the middle of Mecca because their indigenous to Medina ;--)

Some thing else about those genetic studies that I'm sure you are not aware of is the opportunity for bias in the sampling group. Which would allow a dishonest researcher to show just about whatever they wanted.

Sorry but your argument simply doesn't wash. The defining characteristics of a indigenous people is often more cultural than genetic. Think Papua New Guinea if thats not to much trouble.

Looks like that world just got a little bigger didn't it ;--)

The part you don't seem to be able to wrap your ( can't believe I'm about to say it ;--) brain around is that two separate peoples and cultures can develop in relative proximity to one another and share some common DNA, little things like hair color and skin tone, yet still be a distinct people. DNA does not denote tribal or cultural uniqueness nor does it define an indigenous people.

 

[abu afak]

Sorry but your argument simply doesn't wash. The defining characteristics of a indigenous people is often more cultural than genetic. Think Papua New Guinea if thats not to much trouble.

Tinhead couldn't respond to this either. He said Jews were just a religion.

Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Jews (/dʒuːz/;[11] Hebrew: יְהוּדִים ISO 259-3 Yehudim, Israeli pronunciation [jehuˈdim]),
also known as the Jewish people, are an ethnoreligious group[12] originating from the Israelites, or Hebrews, of the Ancient Near East.[13][14] Jewish ethnicity, Nationhood and Religion are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish Nation,[15][16][17] while its observance varies from strict observance to complete nonobservance.
[........]​

 

[Shusha]

90 percent of all Palestinians are descended from the Jews.

You do realize you have just conclusively disproved your own argument, don't you? Don't feel bad. Monte did the same thing.

If the reason that the Palestinians are connected to that particular territory is because they are descended from the Jews, then conclusively, the Jews are the indigenous ones -- the original, pre-existing, pre-colonial, pre-conquest culture. And, since, the Arab Muslim Palestinians have lost their Jewish culture (are no longer Jewish), and adopted the culture of the colonist conquest, they can no longer be considered part of the indigenous group.

 

[Boston1]

90 percent of all Palestinians are descended from the Jews.

You do realize you have just conclusively disproved your own argument, don't you? Don't feel bad. Monte did the same thing.

If the reason that the Palestinians are connected to that particular territory is because they are descended from the Jews, then conclusively, the Jews are the indigenous ones -- the original, pre-existing, pre-colonial, pre-conquest culture. And, since, the Arab Muslim Palestinians have lost their Jewish culture (are no longer Jewish), and adopted the culture of the colonist conquest, they can no longer be considered part of the indigenous group.

LMAO nice catch there Shusha. Once again shot yourself in your own foot now didn't you Billo

Tell us again how the Arab Muslims who arrived in about the 9th century are the indigenous people ;--)

 

[montelatici]

90 percent of all Palestinians are descended from the Jews.

You do realize you have just conclusively disproved your own argument, don't you? Don't feel bad. Monte did the same thing.

If the reason that the Palestinians are connected to that particular territory is because they are descended from the Jews, then conclusively, the Jews are the indigenous ones -- the original, pre-existing, pre-colonial, pre-conquest culture. And, since, the Arab Muslim Palestinians have lost their Jewish culture (are no longer Jewish), and adopted the culture of the colonist conquest, they can no longer be considered part of the indigenous group.

LMAO nice catch there Shusha. Once again shot yourself in your own foot now didn't you Billo

Tell us again how the Arab Muslims who arrived in about the 9th century are the indigenous people ;--)

A people don't lose their indigenous status because they adopt a different religion, culture and language. That would make Latin American Indios that are Catholic, speak Spanish and have adopted the Hispanic culture non-indigenous. You guys are a hoot.

 

[Boston1]

Obviously you don't comprehend the term indigenous

A definition which has been posted about a hundred times so far. Which is why I liken the entire revisionist Arab diatribe right up there with climate denial.

Quote

in·dig·e·nous

inˈdijənəs/

adjective

adjective: indigenous

1. originating or occurring naturally in a particular place; native.

End Quote

Quote

adjective

1.

originating in and characteristic of a particular region or country; native

End Quote

Quote

in·dig·e·nous (ĭn-dĭj′ə-nəs)

adj.

1. Originating, growing, or produced in a certain place or region. See Synonyms at native.

2.

a. Being a member of the original inhabitants of a particular place.

b. Of, belonging to, or characteristic of such inhabitants.

End Quote

Lets look at a few more

Quote

1. Indigenous people are people defined in international or national legislation as having a set of specific rights based on their historical ties to a particular territory, and their cultural or historical distinctiveness from other populations that are often politically dominant.
   n
   mWelcome to Indigenous Peoples Literature
   www.indigenouspeople.net/

End Quote

Quote

The ILO Convention no. 169states that a people are considered indigenous either:

• because they are descendants of those who lived in the area before colonization; or
• because they have maintained their own social, economic, cultural and political institutions since colonization and the establishment of new states.

End Quote

And for the last nail in that coffin

Quote

The identification outlined by the Chairperson of the United Nations' Working Group on Indigenous Populations, Mme. Erica-Irene Daes designates certain peoples as indigenous,

• because they are descendants of groups which were in the territory of the country at the time when other groups of different cultures or ethnic origins arrived there;
• because of their isolation from other segments of the country's population they have preserved almost intact the customs and traditions of their ancestors which are similar to those characterised as indigenous; and
• because they are, even if only formally, placed under a State structure which incorporates national, social and cultural characteristics alien to theirs.

End Quote

Let the kicking and screaming begin

Clearly the colonists are the Arab Muslims from the Arabian Peninsula who arrived in about 900 CE and the native peoples are clearly the Judaic people who originated in the area roughly 6500 years ago in the mid bronze age. and were subject to countless invaders and imposed regimes until they won independence again on that great day, May 15 1948

 

[Billo_Really]

Um. The same way the Lakota nation (as an example) can be surrounded by European colonized nations?

Or Palestinian's surrounded by European Zionists?

 

[montelatici]

Obviously you don't comprehend the term indigenous

A definition which has been posted about a hundred times so far. Which is why I liken the entire revisionist Arab diatribe right up there with climate denial.

Quote

in·dig·e·nous

inˈdijənəs/

adjective

adjective: indigenous

1. originating or occurring naturally in a particular place; native.

End Quote

Quote

adjective

1.

originating in and characteristic of a particular region or country; native

End Quote

Quote

in·dig·e·nous (ĭn-dĭj′ə-nəs)

adj.

1. Originating, growing, or produced in a certain place or region. See Synonyms at native.

2.

a. Being a member of the original inhabitants of a particular place.

b. Of, belonging to, or characteristic of such inhabitants.

End Quote

Lets look at a few more

Quote

1. Indigenous people are people defined in international or national legislation as having a set of specific rights based on their historical ties to a particular territory, and their cultural or historical distinctiveness from other populations that are often politically dominant.
   n
   mWelcome to Indigenous Peoples Literature
   www.indigenouspeople.net/

End Quote

Quote

The ILO Convention no. 169states that a people are considered indigenous either:

• because they are descendants of those who lived in the area before colonization; or
• because they have maintained their own social, economic, cultural and political institutions since colonization and the establishment of new states.

End Quote

And for the last nail in that coffin

Quote

The identification outlined by the Chairperson of the United Nations' Working Group on Indigenous Populations, Mme. Erica-Irene Daes designates certain peoples as indigenous,

• because they are descendants of groups which were in the territory of the country at the time when other groups of different cultures or ethnic origins arrived there;
• because of their isolation from other segments of the country's population they have preserved almost intact the customs and traditions of their ancestors which are similar to those characterised as indigenous; and
• because they are, even if only formally, placed under a State structure which incorporates national, social and cultural characteristics alien to theirs.

End Quote

Let the kicking and screaming begin

Clearly the colonists are the Arab Muslims from the Arabian Peninsula who arrived in about 900 CE and the native peoples are clearly the Judaic people who originated in the area roughly 6500 years ago in the mid bronze age. and were subject to countless invaders and imposed regimes until they won independence again on that great day, May 15 1948

The colonists are the people that come from elsewhere to colonize a foreign territory. The people of Palestine have always lived in Palestine. The Zionists came from Europe, another continent. That's just a fact.

 

[Shusha]

A people don't lose their indigenous status because they adopt a different religion, culture and language.

Um. YEAH, they do. The definition of indigenous is the people belonging to the original, pre-existing, pre-colonial, pre-conquest CULTURE.

 

[Shusha]

The colonists are the people that come from elsewhere to colonize a foreign territory. The people of Palestine have always lived in Palestine. The Zionists came from Europe, another continent. That's just a fact.

The Jewish people are not colonizing foreign territory. They are returning to the territory to which they are indigenous. Returning home. Right of return. You are familiar with this concept, no?

The only people who have a right to decide who is included in their group is the group in question. The concepts are self-identification and acceptance by the group. Therefore, ALL Jews who self-identify and who are accepted into the group belong to the Jewish people and are therefore indigenous to the place where the Jewish people originated.

Removing people from a territory does not remove their belonging to a group.

 

[Boston1]

Neither of those two are playing with reality. I've seen them handed the simple facts right down to multiple definitions like I just posted and still they blither on with the denial and the revisionist nonsense.

There's no doubt who is the native people of Judea. The Judaic people. Its a no brainer, unless that is you are blinded by racism and hatred. Then all of a sudden a colonizing culture becomes the native culture. Or at least for the more deluded among us.

Its typical of cognitive dissonance that those who suffer haven't the mental fortitude to face reality, lest it challenge long standing beliefs they know damn well are complete BS

 

[Billo_Really]

LOL

I don't think you'd know a haplogroup from a psychgroup, although you might be a lot more familiar with that last. I'm damn sure you don't have any idea what a SNP is or that the human genome shares about 99% of its gene structure with that of a chimp.

Or are you suggesting we create a national homeland for chimps right smack in the middle of Mecca because their indigenous to Medina ;--)

Isn't it about time you report someone, you fuckin' pussy?

Some thing else about those genetic studies that I'm sure you are not aware of is the opportunity for bias in the sampling group. Which would allow a dishonest researcher to show just about whatever they wanted.

Well, you do know something about dishonesty.

Sorry but your argument simply doesn't wash. The defining characteristics of a indigenous people is often more cultural than genetic.

The part you don't seem to be able to wrap your ( can't believe I'm about to say it ;--) brain around is that two separate peoples and cultures can develop in relative proximity to one another and share some common DNA, little things like hair color and skin tone, yet still be a distinct people. DNA does not denote tribal or cultural uniqueness nor does it define an indigenous people.

Did you say something about cultural?

" ...the evidence for the Jewish ancestry of the Palestinians is persuasive - very persuasive, when all the information is taken into account. First, there are the names - not just place names, but family names. "Many villages here have names that are not Arabic, and very rarely appear in other Arab lands. Among such names are Kafr Yasif, Kafr Kana, Kafr Yatta, Kafr Manda, Kafr Samia, and many others"

"west of the Jordan River, 277 villages and sites - nearly two-thirds! - had names that were similar to or the same as the Jewish settlements on the same sites during Second Temple times" - Ben-Zvi in his 1932 book The Peoples of Our Land

"Colonel Condor of the Institute for Israel Research found biblical names among Palestinian fellahin [peasants]. Many of these names have no root in the Arabic lexicon. Large, distinguished families from various parts of the country carry Hebrew names or Jewish family names."
​

It's not just names that are similar, but dialect as well...

The Palestinian dialect of Arabic contains many terms and words not found in "standard" Arabic - the result of the integration of Hebrew and Aramaic into the Arabic they were forced to learn after the various Arab and Turkish conquests.
​

And not just dialect, but customs as well...

Many Jewish customs have survived among the Palestinians,
"In Islam, parents are required to have their sons circumcised by the age of 13. While in many Islamic countries the custom is to wait several years, among Palestinians many perform the ritual a week after their son is born - meaning on the eighth day,"

Other customs include sitting seven days for deceased loved ones instead of just three

lighting memorial candles for the dead (a custom found nowhere in the Muslim world)

much of the legal code of the Beduin is remarkably similar to many laws in the Torah and the Mishna

several Palestinian families own ancient hanukkiot, which they used in mid-winter - around Hanukka

One of the most curious of the Jewish customs that were once widespread among the Palestinians was the putting on of tefillin - usually done by someone who was ill, especially by those suffering from headaches.

Many Beduin refrain from eating camel and other nonkosher animals, and around Pessah time, many Palestinians find themselves with a yen for matza.
​

Now go report someone, troll boy.

 

[Billo_Really]

The Jewish people are not colonizing foreign territory. They are returning to the territory to which they are indigenous. Returning home. Right of return. You are familiar with this concept, no?

Jews can return after 2000 years, but Palestinian's cannot return after 70?

Interesting?

 

[Boston1]

LOL

I don't think you'd know a haplogroup from a psychgroup, although you might be a lot more familiar with that last. I'm damn sure you don't have any idea what a SNP is or that the human genome shares about 99% of its gene structure with that of a chimp.

Or are you suggesting we create a national homeland for chimps right smack in the middle of Mecca because their indigenous to Medina ;--)

Isn't it about time you report someone, you fuckin' pussy?

Some thing else about those genetic studies that I'm sure you are not aware of is the opportunity for bias in the sampling group. Which would allow a dishonest researcher to show just about whatever they wanted.

Well, you do know something about dishonesty.

Sorry but your argument simply doesn't wash. The defining characteristics of a indigenous people is often more cultural than genetic.

The part you don't seem to be able to wrap your ( can't believe I'm about to say it ;--) brain around is that two separate peoples and cultures can develop in relative proximity to one another and share some common DNA, little things like hair color and skin tone, yet still be a distinct people. DNA does not denote tribal or cultural uniqueness nor does it define an indigenous people.

Did you say something about cultural?

" ...the evidence for the Jewish ancestry of the Palestinians is persuasive - very persuasive, when all the information is taken into account. First, there are the names - not just place names, but family names. "Many villages here have names that are not Arabic, and very rarely appear in other Arab lands. Among such names are Kafr Yasif, Kafr Kana, Kafr Yatta, Kafr Manda, Kafr Samia, and many others"

"west of the Jordan River, 277 villages and sites - nearly two-thirds! - had names that were similar to or the same as the Jewish settlements on the same sites during Second Temple times" - Ben-Zvi in his 1932 book The Peoples of Our Land

"Colonel Condor of the Institute for Israel Research found biblical names among Palestinian fellahin [peasants]. Many of these names have no root in the Arabic lexicon. Large, distinguished families from various parts of the country carry Hebrew names or Jewish family names."
​

It's not just names that are similar, but dialect as well...

The Palestinian dialect of Arabic contains many terms and words not found in "standard" Arabic - the result of the integration of Hebrew and Aramaic into the Arabic they were forced to learn after the various Arab and Turkish conquests.
​

And not just dialect, but customs as well...

Many Jewish customs have survived among the Palestinians,
"In Islam, parents are required to have their sons circumcised by the age of 13. While in many Islamic countries the custom is to wait several years, among Palestinians many perform the ritual a week after their son is born - meaning on the eighth day,"

Other customs include sitting seven days for deceased loved ones instead of just three

lighting memorial candles for the dead (a custom found nowhere in the Muslim world)

much of the legal code of the Beduin is remarkably similar to many laws in the Torah and the Mishna

several Palestinian families own ancient hanukkiot, which they used in mid-winter - around Hanukka

One of the most curious of the Jewish customs that were once widespread among the Palestinians was the putting on of tefillin - usually done by someone who was ill, especially by those suffering from headaches.

Many Beduin refrain from eating camel and other nonkosher animals, and around Pessah time, many Palestinians find themselves with a yen for matza.
​

Now go report someone, troll boy.

The appropriate response to uncivilized messages on the forum is report the offender. Not to descend into similar uncivilized diatribe.

Your prison logic simply doesn't wash in polite society.

Also the body of your post is hardly credible

Quote

According to amateur historian Tsvi Misinai

End Quote

Wiki, amateurs and racists are your typical sources. Why am I not surprised

 

[Boston1]

The Jewish people are not colonizing foreign territory. They are returning to the territory to which they are indigenous. Returning home. Right of return. You are familiar with this concept, no?

Jews can return after 2000 years, but Palestinian's cannot return after 70?

Interesting?

You're catching on

Now if you can only figure out why. Of course its amazingly simple and we've explained it to you a thousand times but you just don't seem to be able to grasp the concept.

Read back a little and see if you can figure out just who the indigenous people are in Judea ;--)

 

[Billo_Really]

The appropriate response to uncivilized messages on the forum is report the offender. Not to descend into similar uncivilized diatribe.

Your prison logic simply doesn't wash in polite society.

Also the body of your post is hardly credible

Quote

According to amateur historian Tsvi Misinai

End Quote

Wiki, amateurs and racists are your typical sources. Why am I not surprised

You use the report button as a weapon, which makes you a fucking hypocrite as well. You sit there and say the most fucked up shit to other people, then turnaround and try to silence your critics.

You're one of the most uncivilized posters at this website and you can also take that arrogant, condescending prose of yours and shove it up your ass! You're a phony and a fake.

All you got is ad hominems; you certainly can't debate worth a shit. Because if you could, you would specifically address the points in my post. Instead, you make these bullshit ad hominems and then act like you've just made a point.

You claimed there was more than DNA to show a link, that there were cultural differences. Well, I gave you a whole list of cultural similarities between Palestinian's and Jews that you were too pussy to address.

 

[Billo_Really]

You're catching on

Now if you can only figure out why. Of course its amazingly simple and we've explained it to you a thousand times but you just don't seem to be able to grasp the concept.

Read back a little and see if you can figure out just who the indigenous people are in Judea ;--)

Fuck you!

I know why the Pals can't return, it's because Israel doesn't respect international law. And since you defend Israel's position, that means you don't respect international law, either.

So stop talking about this respect BS, because you obviously demonstrate you have none.

 

[Phoenall]

Kinda throws a wrench into all this diatribe about Arab Muslims being indigenous to the Canaan valley area. Whoops, there's that term again ;--) did you ever look up just where they valley is and its relation to the mandated area ?

Comprehension not your strongpoint is it? I'll write it once again, slowly for you. There is no evidence that the indigenous people of the area called Palestine were ever displaced in any significant numbers by the Arab conquerors. Arab nobles/chieftains took over vacant estates left by the Roman nobles who chose to leave rather than pay taxes or convert, the peasantry remained in place. Over the next century or so these people took up Arabic language and customs and voluntarily converted to Islam (mainly to avoid taxes). If you can demonstrate otherwise, please do.

Your funny.

Your argument is nonexistent, you don't provide a single corroborating source and so far everything you've claimed had been demonstrably false. ( through the use of even just basic source material ) so yeah, not feeling any tremendous inclination to simply take your word for it. LOL

Everything you have claimed is demonstrably false. All source documentation disproves your every assertion.

Source documentation is not put together by a committee and sold as a novel, which is what you try and pass off as evidence. You would not know a source document if it jumped up and bit your nose