The minimum wage increase: The good, the bad, the unknown

[Mac1958]

Hmm, what exactly is the definition of a small business?

Businesses under 50 employees.
.

 

[CowboyTed]

You and the liberals are smoking crack if you all think it will set off a chain reaction of salary increases, can't squeeze blood out of a turnip...it is trickle up poor...

Yes, it will have to create a chain reaction of salary increases, but companies that don't have the cash flow to handle that (and there will be many) will have to compress its work force (and/or reduce available hours) and institute other cost-cutting measures.

Those who back the increase say it will put more money in consumers hands, which in turn will cause them to spend more, which will (theoretically) put money in the hands of the employers who are having to pay more. What they don't understand is that this won't happen overnight, and low-margin businesses are going to have to react by cutting those jobs and hours.

I did see one study that says that if the increase is not done too quickly it can effectively be absorbed over time, and that was excellent news. And none of the plans I've seen call for an immediate jump to $15, although I suspect most of the minimum wage workers who are screaming for it don't realize that.

The wild card here is automation. Otherwise, the increase is coming, gang, and businesses know it.
.

Mac,

The biggest positive in a Min raise increase is the economy... To increase the flow in money in the economy putting money poor pocket is far more effective than putting in rich pocket.

Example:
Give Bill Gates a Million Dollars he won't notice and will not affect his spending... Give 1,000 people on min wage a $1000 and they will have it spent quicky, directly changing there spending habits... This money get put through the businesses thus increasing revenue...

That is why even though there is an increase in costs there is no proof of net job losses...
Ben Carson said raising the minimum wage will increase joblessness

 

[candycorn]

A perfectly rational & reasoned post by Cecilie1200 on another thread has inspired me to belch out the following thoughts on the almost inevitable minimum wage increase. Warning, no simplistic, binary, shallow bumper sticker sloganeering ahead. I'm hopeful they'll be kept to a minimum on this thread (he says, not holding his breath).

First, if we take it out to the 20,000 foot level, an increase in the minimum wage (to, say, $15) will certainly not only squeeze profits in a low-margin industry and ultimately increase retail costs, but it will necessarily set off a chain reaction of higher wages and costs right up the salary scale. It won't just be an increase in wages at the lowest end, which appears to be what the clearly informed think.

But here's where it gets interesting - what would that actually look like? Well, there's the good, the bad, and the unknown. I'll (mercifully) keep them all as short as possible, and if the thread goes anywhere, we can expand on them.

The Good: Obviously an increase in the minimum wage will put dollars (deserved or not, from a business perspective) in the hands of low-income workers, increasing their quality of life (theoretically) and provide better stability on the low end of the economic scale. And it would largely mitigate the most reasonable argument proponents of the increase have: In this country, it's absurd that people who work full time still require public assistance. That truly is a form of corporate welfare.

The Bad: As mentioned above, it will set off a chain reaction of salary increases up the scale across the board and increase prices. But more concerning is the fact that it will also lead to hours cutbacks, slower hiring and further momentum towards automation. A business has to protect itself, and unfortunately there are far too many people in this discussion who really don't have the foggiest idea what running a business involves. Further, wage inflation is mitigated somewhat by price inflation, rendering it less valuable.

The Unknown: Here's a discussion I never see. I don't have data to back this up (too lazy right now) but I'm guessing that among the most affected industries and products will be fast food and lower retail cost items. Okay, to make a long story short, perhaps we're then talking quality over quantity. So we might be less likely to buy 3 Big Macs™ and wash them down with an extra super duper size fries; we won't find ourselves buying seven $3 shirts; on the other end, more of us may settle for a 48" mondo big screen teevee instead of a 60" double mondo version. On and on.

I guess what I'm saying here is that proponents of the increase will never bring this up, I suspect because they're afraid it might damage their argument. Still, the "freedom" (there's that word) to cram our homes and mouths with a lot of cheap crap may very well dinged somewhat by this increase.

But is that necessarily a bad thing, really?

Just saying.


.

Good post.

As all of it was spot on, I can't disagree with it except maybe to expand on it.

Here is what I never see discussed; if you increase the federal minimum wage; that would mean that the wages that across sectors would increase. Dollar General will have to pay their workers more but so would their competitors, Family Dollar and Dollar Tree. I'm not seeing how this hurts any businesses at all; Retail markup will simply be higher than it used to be or the business owners and shareholders will have to accept a lower profit margin. The $0.99 Only stores will be the only ones really devastated by this because they artificially keep their prices below $0.99 and they will not be able to do so in that environment.
Outside of automation replacing employees, there isn't going to be any cutbacks on stores that are already thinly staffed. Wal Mart is losing sales to Amazon which tells you that people will wait days in their house to get a pair of size 8 Nikes from UPS instead of waiting minutes in a dingy store for a clerk to bring you some from the back room. Much has been made of the shift from the black Friday mosh-pit scenario to stores opening on Thanksgiving at 6:00 PM or now, Wal Mart is having it all week from what I understand. While consumers see this as a proliferation of making their lives easier by not having to get up so early to get bargains, retailers like Wal Mart and Target are happy to do this because their pathetic staffing levels are not exposed as much since there is no acute stress period with 5X the ordinary numbers of guests in their aisles.

Personally, I do not think the minimum wage should be raised all that much. I would say raise it to $10 per hour. It's been $7.25 for too long. And set a regular schedule to raise it based on costs of living criteria and other factors. Instead of making it some sort of issue and playing around with aspirations of wage earners and such, say every 6 years, the Feds will look into it. If the COL rose 2.1%, the FMW raises $0.05 or whatever.

 

[Mac1958]

You and the liberals are smoking crack if you all think it will set off a chain reaction of salary increases, can't squeeze blood out of a turnip...it is trickle up poor...

Yes, it will have to create a chain reaction of salary increases, but companies that don't have the cash flow to handle that (and there will be many) will have to compress its work force (and/or reduce available hours) and institute other cost-cutting measures.

Those who back the increase say it will put more money in consumers hands, which in turn will cause them to spend more, which will (theoretically) put money in the hands of the employers who are having to pay more. What they don't understand is that this won't happen overnight, and low-margin businesses are going to have to react by cutting those jobs and hours.

I did see one study that says that if the increase is not done too quickly it can effectively be absorbed over time, and that was excellent news. And none of the plans I've seen call for an immediate jump to $15, although I suspect most of the minimum wage workers who are screaming for it don't realize that.

The wild card here is automation. Otherwise, the increase is coming, gang, and businesses know it.
.

Mac,

The biggest positive in a Min raise increase is the economy... To increase the flow in money in the economy putting money poor pocket is far more effective than putting in rich pocket.

Example:
Give Bill Gates a Million Dollars he won't notice and will not affect his spending... Give 1,000 people on min wage a $1000 and they will have it spent quicky, directly changing there spending habits... This money get put through the businesses thus increasing revenue...

That is why even though there is an increase in costs there is no proof of net job losses...
Ben Carson said raising the minimum wage will increase joblessness

What I think many are missing is what is between "the rich" and "the poor": The Employer.

It just isn't as simple as opening a salary spigot and catching all the dollars. Global competition and a changing business economic landscape (such as the internet) have reduced margins in many (not all) industries, and the downsides I listed are going to happen. The question will be (a) the speed of the increases and (b) the amount of automation to which employers will have to turn.
.

 

[Freewill]

Minimum Wage Mythbusters

Myth: Raising the federal tipped minimum wage ($2.13 per hour since 1991) would hurt restaurants.

Not true: In California, employers are required to pay servers the full minimum wage of $9 per hour — before tips. Even with a 2014 increase in the minimum wage, the National Restaurant Association projects California restaurant sales will outpace all but only a handful of states in 2015.



Myth: Raising the federal tipped minimum wage ($2.13 per hour since 1991) would lead to restaurant job losses.

Not true: As of May 2015, employers in San Francisco must pay tipped workers the full minimum wage of $12.25 per hour — before tips. Yet, the San Francisco leisure and hospitality industry, which includes full-service restaurants, has experienced positive job growth this year, including following the most recent minimum wage increase.

Have you, as I assume a non-resident of CA, gone to a restaurant in CA? Their prices, compared to other parts of the country, are outrageously high. Sure they stay in business because it is not like there are many alternatives to eating.

 

[Mac1958]

A perfectly rational & reasoned post by Cecilie1200 on another thread has inspired me to belch out the following thoughts on the almost inevitable minimum wage increase. Warning, no simplistic, binary, shallow bumper sticker sloganeering ahead. I'm hopeful they'll be kept to a minimum on this thread (he says, not holding his breath).

First, if we take it out to the 20,000 foot level, an increase in the minimum wage (to, say, $15) will certainly not only squeeze profits in a low-margin industry and ultimately increase retail costs, but it will necessarily set off a chain reaction of higher wages and costs right up the salary scale. It won't just be an increase in wages at the lowest end, which appears to be what the clearly informed think.

But here's where it gets interesting - what would that actually look like? Well, there's the good, the bad, and the unknown. I'll (mercifully) keep them all as short as possible, and if the thread goes anywhere, we can expand on them.

The Good: Obviously an increase in the minimum wage will put dollars (deserved or not, from a business perspective) in the hands of low-income workers, increasing their quality of life (theoretically) and provide better stability on the low end of the economic scale. And it would largely mitigate the most reasonable argument proponents of the increase have: In this country, it's absurd that people who work full time still require public assistance. That truly is a form of corporate welfare.

The Bad: As mentioned above, it will set off a chain reaction of salary increases up the scale across the board and increase prices. But more concerning is the fact that it will also lead to hours cutbacks, slower hiring and further momentum towards automation. A business has to protect itself, and unfortunately there are far too many people in this discussion who really don't have the foggiest idea what running a business involves. Further, wage inflation is mitigated somewhat by price inflation, rendering it less valuable.

The Unknown: Here's a discussion I never see. I don't have data to back this up (too lazy right now) but I'm guessing that among the most affected industries and products will be fast food and lower retail cost items. Okay, to make a long story short, perhaps we're then talking quality over quantity. So we might be less likely to buy 3 Big Macs™ and wash them down with an extra super duper size fries; we won't find ourselves buying seven $3 shirts; on the other end, more of us may settle for a 48" mondo big screen teevee instead of a 60" double mondo version. On and on.

I guess what I'm saying here is that proponents of the increase will never bring this up, I suspect because they're afraid it might damage their argument. Still, the "freedom" (there's that word) to cram our homes and mouths with a lot of cheap crap may very well dinged somewhat by this increase.

But is that necessarily a bad thing, really?

Just saying.


.

Good post.

As all of it was spot on, I can't disagree with it except maybe to expand on it.

Here is what I never see discussed; if you increase the federal minimum wage; that would mean that the wages that across sectors would increase. Dollar General will have to pay their workers more but so would their competitors, Family Dollar and Dollar Tree. I'm not seeing how this hurts any businesses at all; Retail markup will simply be higher than it used to be or the business owners and shareholders will have to accept a lower profit margin. The $0.99 Only stores will be the only ones really devastated by this because they artificially keep their prices below $0.99 and they will not be able to do so in that environment.
Outside of automation replacing employees, there isn't going to be any cutbacks on stores that are already thinly staffed. Wal Mart is losing sales to Amazon which tells you that people will wait days in their house to get a pair of size 8 Nikes from UPS instead of waiting minutes in a dingy store for a clerk to bring you some from the back room. Much has been made of the shift from the black Friday mosh-pit scenario to stores opening on Thanksgiving at 6:00 PM or now, Wal Mart is having it all week from what I understand. While consumers see this as a proliferation of making their lives easier by not having to get up so early to get bargains, retailers like Wal Mart and Target are happy to do this because their pathetic staffing levels are not exposed as much since there is no acute stress period with 5X the ordinary numbers of guests in their aisles.

Personally, I do not think the minimum wage should be raised all that much. I would say raise it to $10 per hour. It's been $7.25 for too long. And set a regular schedule to raise it based on costs of living criteria and other factors. Instead of making it some sort of issue and playing around with aspirations of wage earners and such, say every 6 years, the Feds will look into it. If the COL rose 2.1%, the FMW raises $0.05 or whatever.

Thanks.

That's why I brought up the quantity/quality issue. The ultimate decrease (if any) in actual quality of life. I'm trying to think this all the way through, and that to me seems to be the bottom line. If this, at some point, were to cause changes in our spending habits, I'm not convinced that's necessarily a negative.
.

 

[007]

A perfectly rational & reasoned post by Cecilie1200 on another thread has inspired me to belch out the following thoughts on the almost inevitable minimum wage increase. Warning, no simplistic, binary, shallow bumper sticker sloganeering ahead. I'm hopeful they'll be kept to a minimum on this thread (he says, not holding his breath).

First, if we take it out to the 20,000 foot level, an increase in the minimum wage (to, say, $15) will certainly not only squeeze profits in a low-margin industry and ultimately increase retail costs, but it will necessarily set off a chain reaction of higher wages and costs right up the salary scale. It won't just be an increase in wages at the lowest end, which appears to be what the clearly informed think.

But here's where it gets interesting - what would that actually look like? Well, there's the good, the bad, and the unknown. I'll (mercifully) keep them all as short as possible, and if the thread goes anywhere, we can expand on them.

The Good: Obviously an increase in the minimum wage will put dollars (deserved or not, from a business perspective) in the hands of low-income workers, increasing their quality of life (theoretically) and provide better stability on the low end of the economic scale. And it would largely mitigate the most reasonable argument proponents of the increase have: In this country, it's absurd that people who work full time still require public assistance. That truly is a form of corporate welfare.

The Bad: As mentioned above, it will set off a chain reaction of salary increases up the scale across the board and increase prices. But more concerning is the fact that it will also lead to hours cutbacks, slower hiring and further momentum towards automation. A business has to protect itself, and unfortunately there are far too many people in this discussion who really don't have the foggiest idea what running a business involves. Further, wage inflation is mitigated somewhat by price inflation, rendering it less valuable.

The Unknown: Here's a discussion I never see. I don't have data to back this up (too lazy right now) but I'm guessing that among the most affected industries and products will be fast food and lower retail cost items. Okay, to make a long story short, perhaps we're then talking quality over quantity. So we might be less likely to buy 3 Big Macs™ and wash them down with an extra super duper size fries; we won't find ourselves buying seven $3 shirts; on the other end, more of us may settle for a 48" mondo big screen teevee instead of a 60" double mondo version. On and on.

I guess what I'm saying here is that proponents of the increase will never bring this up, I suspect because they're afraid it might damage their argument. Still, the "freedom" (there's that word) to cram our homes and mouths with a lot of cheap crap may very well dinged somewhat by this increase.

But is that necessarily a bad thing, really?

Just saying.


.

Raise the minimum wage to $10.00 an hour and see how it goes. $15.00 an hour is ridiculous.

 

[dblack]

A perfectly rational & reasoned post by Cecilie1200 on another thread has inspired me to belch out the following thoughts on the almost inevitable minimum wage increase. Warning, no simplistic, binary, shallow bumper sticker sloganeering ahead. I'm hopeful they'll be kept to a minimum on this thread (he says, not holding his breath).

First, if we take it out to the 20,000 foot level, an increase in the minimum wage (to, say, $15) will certainly not only squeeze profits in a low-margin industry and ultimately increase retail costs, but it will necessarily set off a chain reaction of higher wages and costs right up the salary scale. It won't just be an increase in wages at the lowest end, which appears to be what the clearly informed think.

But here's where it gets interesting - what would that actually look like? Well, there's the good, the bad, and the unknown. I'll (mercifully) keep them all as short as possible, and if the thread goes anywhere, we can expand on them.

The Good: Obviously an increase in the minimum wage will put dollars (deserved or not, from a business perspective) in the hands of low-income workers, increasing their quality of life (theoretically) and provide better stability on the low end of the economic scale. And it would largely mitigate the most reasonable argument proponents of the increase have: In this country, it's absurd that people who work full time still require public assistance. That truly is a form of corporate welfare.

The Bad: As mentioned above, it will set off a chain reaction of salary increases up the scale across the board and increase prices. But more concerning is the fact that it will also lead to hours cutbacks, slower hiring and further momentum towards automation. A business has to protect itself, and unfortunately there are far too many people in this discussion who really don't have the foggiest idea what running a business involves. Further, wage inflation is mitigated somewhat by price inflation, rendering it less valuable.

The Unknown: Here's a discussion I never see. I don't have data to back this up (too lazy right now) but I'm guessing that among the most affected industries and products will be fast food and lower retail cost items. Okay, to make a long story short, perhaps we're then talking quality over quantity. So we might be less likely to buy 3 Big Macs™ and wash them down with an extra super duper size fries; we won't find ourselves buying seven $3 shirts; on the other end, more of us may settle for a 48" mondo big screen teevee instead of a 60" double mondo version. On and on.

I guess what I'm saying here is that proponents of the increase will never bring this up, I suspect because they're afraid it might damage their argument. Still, the "freedom" (there's that word) to cram our homes and mouths with a lot of cheap crap may very well dinged somewhat by this increase.

But is that necessarily a bad thing, really?

Just saying.


.

Raise the minimum wage to $10.00 an hour and see how it goes. $15.00 an hour is ridiculous.

Screw that. Ten won't be enough to notice. Raise it to $20.00/hr. If the cretins really think mandating minimum wages does no harm, let's test the theory properly.

 

[Freewill]

Some fallacies I see.

One, minimum wage drives the wages of everyone. Yes, it is true for a lot of Union members that their wages are tied to the MW but for the rest of the folks, good luck.

Two, a company is going to employ less people if they are forced to pay a higher MW. I would think that companies do not have a lot of people sitting around doing nothing. I would think their business model allows for the work to be done with X amount of people. As long as we have the 40 hour week people can only work so long for straight time. So logically if the MW is raised then the company will either conform with higher prices for their product, thus a ripple effect, or they close. Certainly increasing the work force and maintaining profit, and yes maintaining profit is important, can't happen.

Thirdly, Very few work for MW now about 5 percent of the work force. Many of those in the service industry whose wages are supplemented by tips, which largely, in my opinion, are under the table, if cash.

Fourth, The government requiring anything usually goes very badly.

Fifth, the minimum wage was never meant to be a career. Basically it is meant to keep people from being slaves. The inflationary pressure created may mean that raising the MW, instead of companies raising their wages, might be the dog chasing its tail.

Any way, here are some statistics on MW:

Characteristics of Minimum Wage Workers: 2012

• Minimum wage workers tend to be young. Although workers under age 25 represented only about one-fifth of hourly paid workers, they made up about half of those paid the Federal minimum wage or less. Among employed teenagers paid by the hour, about 21 percent earned the minimum wage or less, compared with about 3 percent of workers age 25 and over. (Seetable 1 and table 7.)
  
  
• In 2012, 6 percent of women paid hourly rates had wages at or below the prevailing federal minimum, compared with about 3 percent of men. (See table 1.)
  
  
• About 5 percent of White, Black, and Hispanic or Latino hourly paid workers earned the federal minimum wage or less. Among Asian workers paid at hourly rates, about 3 percent earned the minimum wage or less. (See table 1.)
  
  
• Among hourly paid workers age 16 and over, about 10 percent of those who had less than a high school diploma earned the federal minimum wage or less, compared with about 4 percent of those who had a high school diploma (with no college) and about 2 percent of college graduates. (See table 6.)
  
  
• Never-married workers, who tend to be young, were more likely than married workers to earn the federal minimum wage or less (about 8 percent versus about 2 percent). (See table 8.)
  
  
• About 11 percent of part-time workers (persons who usually work less than 35 hours per week) were paid the federal minimum wage or less, compared with about 2 percent of full-time workers. (See table 1 and table 9.)
  
  
• By major occupational group, the highest proportion of hourly paid workers earning at or below the federal minimum wage was in service occupations, at about 12 percent. About three-fifths of workers earning the minimum wage or less in 2012 were employed in service occupations, mostly in food preparation and serving related jobs. (See table 4.)
  
  
• The industry with the highest proportion of workers with hourly wages at or below the federal minimum wage was leisure and hospitality (about 19 percent). About half of all workers paid at or below the federal minimum wage were employed in this industry, the vast majority in restaurants and other food services. For many of these workers, tips and commissions supplement the hourly wages received. (See table 5.)
  
  
• The states with the highest proportions of hourly paid workers earning at or below the federal minimum wage were Louisiana, Oklahoma, Texas, and Idaho (all between 7 and 8 percent). The states with the lowest percentages of hourly paid workers earning at or below the federal minimum wage were Alaska, Oregon, California, Montana, and Washington (all under 2 percent). It should be noted that some states have minimum wage laws establishing standards that exceed the federal minimum wage. (See table 2 and table 3.)
  
  
• The proportion of hourly paid workers earning the prevailing federal minimum wage or less declined from 5.2 percent in 2011 to 4.7 percent in 2012. This remains well below the figure of 13.4 percent in 1979, when data were first collected on a regular basis. (See table 10.)

 

[Freewill]

Another thought. What if the MW is 10 dollars, and a person makes 11. The minimum wage is raised to 15, does everyone's boat float higher? I might be for this raise since my wife does work I don't want to do for a little more then MW. But by what I see if the company she is working for is forced to raise wages then her wages are more then likely to go to 0 not 15. Maybe not. I think the employees should organize then they can negotiate the best deal for both sides and not put the company out of business. And yes, union bashers, that is how it is suppose to work.

 

[007]

A perfectly rational & reasoned post by Cecilie1200 on another thread has inspired me to belch out the following thoughts on the almost inevitable minimum wage increase. Warning, no simplistic, binary, shallow bumper sticker sloganeering ahead. I'm hopeful they'll be kept to a minimum on this thread (he says, not holding his breath).

First, if we take it out to the 20,000 foot level, an increase in the minimum wage (to, say, $15) will certainly not only squeeze profits in a low-margin industry and ultimately increase retail costs, but it will necessarily set off a chain reaction of higher wages and costs right up the salary scale. It won't just be an increase in wages at the lowest end, which appears to be what the clearly informed think.

But here's where it gets interesting - what would that actually look like? Well, there's the good, the bad, and the unknown. I'll (mercifully) keep them all as short as possible, and if the thread goes anywhere, we can expand on them.

The Good: Obviously an increase in the minimum wage will put dollars (deserved or not, from a business perspective) in the hands of low-income workers, increasing their quality of life (theoretically) and provide better stability on the low end of the economic scale. And it would largely mitigate the most reasonable argument proponents of the increase have: In this country, it's absurd that people who work full time still require public assistance. That truly is a form of corporate welfare.

The Bad: As mentioned above, it will set off a chain reaction of salary increases up the scale across the board and increase prices. But more concerning is the fact that it will also lead to hours cutbacks, slower hiring and further momentum towards automation. A business has to protect itself, and unfortunately there are far too many people in this discussion who really don't have the foggiest idea what running a business involves. Further, wage inflation is mitigated somewhat by price inflation, rendering it less valuable.

The Unknown: Here's a discussion I never see. I don't have data to back this up (too lazy right now) but I'm guessing that among the most affected industries and products will be fast food and lower retail cost items. Okay, to make a long story short, perhaps we're then talking quality over quantity. So we might be less likely to buy 3 Big Macs™ and wash them down with an extra super duper size fries; we won't find ourselves buying seven $3 shirts; on the other end, more of us may settle for a 48" mondo big screen teevee instead of a 60" double mondo version. On and on.

I guess what I'm saying here is that proponents of the increase will never bring this up, I suspect because they're afraid it might damage their argument. Still, the "freedom" (there's that word) to cram our homes and mouths with a lot of cheap crap may very well dinged somewhat by this increase.

But is that necessarily a bad thing, really?

Just saying.


.

Raise the minimum wage to $10.00 an hour and see how it goes. $15.00 an hour is ridiculous.

Screw that. Ten won't be enough to notice. Raise it to $20.00/hr. If the cretins really think mandating minimum wages does no harm, let's test the theory properly.

You have a point... make it $50.

 

[gipper]

Large enterprises employed more than half of all employees for the sixth consecutive year.

In 2012, large enterprises employed 59.9 million people (51.6 percent of all employees),

very small enterprises employed 20.4 million people (17.6 percent),

small enterprises employed 19.4 million people (16.7 percent),

and medium enterprises employed 16.3 million people (14.0 percent).

See Figure 1. See Table 1 on the next page for definitions of the enterprise employment size terms used in this report. The share of employment at large enterprises has increased steadily since 2004 (see Table 2). In 2004, 49.1 percent of employees were employed by large enterprises. By 2012, 51.6 percent of employees were employed by large enterprises. The employment share of small enterprises decreased from 17.9 percent in 2004 to 16.6 percent in 2010 and 2011, before rising slightly to 16.7 percent in 2012.
http://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2015/econ/g12-susb.pdf

Not a good trend....but the power elite love the centralization of business into big businesses. Why?

 

[Freewill]

You and the liberals are smoking crack if you all think it will set off a chain reaction of salary increases, can't squeeze blood out of a turnip...it is trickle up poor...

Yes, it will have to create a chain reaction of salary increases, but companies that don't have the cash flow to handle that (and there will be many) will have to compress its work force (and/or reduce available hours) and institute other cost-cutting measures.

Those who back the increase say it will put more money in consumers hands, which in turn will cause them to spend more, which will (theoretically) put money in the hands of the employers who are having to pay more. What they don't understand is that this won't happen overnight, and low-margin businesses are going to have to react by cutting those jobs and hours.

I did see one study that says that if the increase is not done too quickly it can effectively be absorbed over time, and that was excellent news. And none of the plans I've seen call for an immediate jump to $15, although I suspect most of the minimum wage workers who are screaming for it don't realize that.

The wild card here is automation. Otherwise, the increase is coming, gang, and businesses know it.
.

Mac,

The biggest positive in a Min raise increase is the economy... To increase the flow in money in the economy putting money poor pocket is far more effective than putting in rich pocket.

Example:
Give Bill Gates a Million Dollars he won't notice and will not affect his spending... Give 1,000 people on min wage a $1000 and they will have it spent quicky, directly changing there spending habits... This money get put through the businesses thus increasing revenue...

That is why even though there is an increase in costs there is no proof of net job losses...
Ben Carson said raising the minimum wage will increase joblessness

I am not disagreeing with you but wouldn't an increase in wages and the obvious resultant inflationary pressure hurt the poor even more?

 

[Mac1958]

....but the power elite love the centralization of business into big businesses. Why?

Aside from larger campaign contributions?
.

 

[Mac1958]

You and the liberals are smoking crack if you all think it will set off a chain reaction of salary increases, can't squeeze blood out of a turnip...it is trickle up poor...

Yes, it will have to create a chain reaction of salary increases, but companies that don't have the cash flow to handle that (and there will be many) will have to compress its work force (and/or reduce available hours) and institute other cost-cutting measures.

Those who back the increase say it will put more money in consumers hands, which in turn will cause them to spend more, which will (theoretically) put money in the hands of the employers who are having to pay more. What they don't understand is that this won't happen overnight, and low-margin businesses are going to have to react by cutting those jobs and hours.

I did see one study that says that if the increase is not done too quickly it can effectively be absorbed over time, and that was excellent news. And none of the plans I've seen call for an immediate jump to $15, although I suspect most of the minimum wage workers who are screaming for it don't realize that.

The wild card here is automation. Otherwise, the increase is coming, gang, and businesses know it.
.

Mac,

The biggest positive in a Min raise increase is the economy... To increase the flow in money in the economy putting money poor pocket is far more effective than putting in rich pocket.

Example:
Give Bill Gates a Million Dollars he won't notice and will not affect his spending... Give 1,000 people on min wage a $1000 and they will have it spent quicky, directly changing there spending habits... This money get put through the businesses thus increasing revenue...

That is why even though there is an increase in costs there is no proof of net job losses...
Ben Carson said raising the minimum wage will increase joblessness

I am not disagreeing with you but wouldn't an increase in wages and the obvious resultant inflationary pressure hurt the poor even more?

Some of the poor, yes, because they would see hours cut, some job losses and slower hiring at the low end.

This will be a trade-off, and the betting is that the more liquid economy will ultimately create more jobs in the long run.
.

 

[Freewill]

You and the liberals are smoking crack if you all think it will set off a chain reaction of salary increases, can't squeeze blood out of a turnip...it is trickle up poor...

Yes, it will have to create a chain reaction of salary increases, but companies that don't have the cash flow to handle that (and there will be many) will have to compress its work force (and/or reduce available hours) and institute other cost-cutting measures.

Those who back the increase say it will put more money in consumers hands, which in turn will cause them to spend more, which will (theoretically) put money in the hands of the employers who are having to pay more. What they don't understand is that this won't happen overnight, and low-margin businesses are going to have to react by cutting those jobs and hours.

I did see one study that says that if the increase is not done too quickly it can effectively be absorbed over time, and that was excellent news. And none of the plans I've seen call for an immediate jump to $15, although I suspect most of the minimum wage workers who are screaming for it don't realize that.

The wild card here is automation. Otherwise, the increase is coming, gang, and businesses know it.
.

Mac,

The biggest positive in a Min raise increase is the economy... To increase the flow in money in the economy putting money poor pocket is far more effective than putting in rich pocket.

Example:
Give Bill Gates a Million Dollars he won't notice and will not affect his spending... Give 1,000 people on min wage a $1000 and they will have it spent quicky, directly changing there spending habits... This money get put through the businesses thus increasing revenue...

That is why even though there is an increase in costs there is no proof of net job losses...
Ben Carson said raising the minimum wage will increase joblessness

I am not disagreeing with you but wouldn't an increase in wages and the obvious resultant inflationary pressure hurt the poor even more?

Some of the poor, yes, because they would see hours cut, some job losses and slower hiring at the low end.

This will be a trade-off, and the betting is that the more liquid economy will ultimately create more jobs in the long run.
.

Again, how does a company cut hours and stay in business? The implication is that companies are just keeping people employed because they are cheap, is this true?

I am not arguing with you I really just don't see that happening.

 

[dblack]

.... the power elite love the centralization of business into big businesses. Why?

Control.

 

[Mac1958]

You and the liberals are smoking crack if you all think it will set off a chain reaction of salary increases, can't squeeze blood out of a turnip...it is trickle up poor...

Yes, it will have to create a chain reaction of salary increases, but companies that don't have the cash flow to handle that (and there will be many) will have to compress its work force (and/or reduce available hours) and institute other cost-cutting measures.

Those who back the increase say it will put more money in consumers hands, which in turn will cause them to spend more, which will (theoretically) put money in the hands of the employers who are having to pay more. What they don't understand is that this won't happen overnight, and low-margin businesses are going to have to react by cutting those jobs and hours.

I did see one study that says that if the increase is not done too quickly it can effectively be absorbed over time, and that was excellent news. And none of the plans I've seen call for an immediate jump to $15, although I suspect most of the minimum wage workers who are screaming for it don't realize that.

The wild card here is automation. Otherwise, the increase is coming, gang, and businesses know it.
.

Mac,

The biggest positive in a Min raise increase is the economy... To increase the flow in money in the economy putting money poor pocket is far more effective than putting in rich pocket.

Example:
Give Bill Gates a Million Dollars he won't notice and will not affect his spending... Give 1,000 people on min wage a $1000 and they will have it spent quicky, directly changing there spending habits... This money get put through the businesses thus increasing revenue...

That is why even though there is an increase in costs there is no proof of net job losses...
Ben Carson said raising the minimum wage will increase joblessness

I am not disagreeing with you but wouldn't an increase in wages and the obvious resultant inflationary pressure hurt the poor even more?

Some of the poor, yes, because they would see hours cut, some job losses and slower hiring at the low end.

This will be a trade-off, and the betting is that the more liquid economy will ultimately create more jobs in the long run.
.

Again, how does a company cut hours and stay in business? The implication is that companies are just keeping people employed because they are cheap, is this true?

I am not arguing with you I really just don't see that happening.

Well, it depends on the economics of the business. Some businesses can get away with it through increased productivity, some would have to introduce automation, some would have to scale back/revise operations overall.

We're talking about a wide spectrum here, because businesses all have different percentages of workforces that would be affected, and different percentages of payroll vs. other costs.
.

 

[Freewill]

Yes, it will have to create a chain reaction of salary increases, but companies that don't have the cash flow to handle that (and there will be many) will have to compress its work force (and/or reduce available hours) and institute other cost-cutting measures.

Those who back the increase say it will put more money in consumers hands, which in turn will cause them to spend more, which will (theoretically) put money in the hands of the employers who are having to pay more. What they don't understand is that this won't happen overnight, and low-margin businesses are going to have to react by cutting those jobs and hours.

I did see one study that says that if the increase is not done too quickly it can effectively be absorbed over time, and that was excellent news. And none of the plans I've seen call for an immediate jump to $15, although I suspect most of the minimum wage workers who are screaming for it don't realize that.

The wild card here is automation. Otherwise, the increase is coming, gang, and businesses know it.
.

Mac,

The biggest positive in a Min raise increase is the economy... To increase the flow in money in the economy putting money poor pocket is far more effective than putting in rich pocket.

Example:
Give Bill Gates a Million Dollars he won't notice and will not affect his spending... Give 1,000 people on min wage a $1000 and they will have it spent quicky, directly changing there spending habits... This money get put through the businesses thus increasing revenue...

That is why even though there is an increase in costs there is no proof of net job losses...
Ben Carson said raising the minimum wage will increase joblessness

I am not disagreeing with you but wouldn't an increase in wages and the obvious resultant inflationary pressure hurt the poor even more?

Some of the poor, yes, because they would see hours cut, some job losses and slower hiring at the low end.

This will be a trade-off, and the betting is that the more liquid economy will ultimately create more jobs in the long run.
.

Again, how does a company cut hours and stay in business? The implication is that companies are just keeping people employed because they are cheap, is this true?

I am not arguing with you I really just don't see that happening.

Well, it depends on the economics of the business. Some businesses can get away with it through increased productivity, some would have to introduce automation, some would have to scale back/revise operations overall.

We're talking about a wide spectrum here, because businesses all have different percentages of workforces that would be affected, and different percentages of payroll vs. other costs.
.

Again, not arguing just discussing. Your first paragraph, why wouldn't a company be doing those very things regardless of the MW?

Take yourself for example, or at least what I think. You have an office I assume with a secretary. I assume your secretary makes something over the MW. Now we can assume she/he (must be PC) serves a function. If nothing else screens your calls because you are busy all day with clients, or posting on Internet web sites.

Let's just say she makes 2 dollars over the MW which is 10 dollars. MW is raised to 15 dollars meaning she now has receive a 20 percent wage increase. Where does that 20 percent come from?

 

[Mac1958]

Mac,

The biggest positive in a Min raise increase is the economy... To increase the flow in money in the economy putting money poor pocket is far more effective than putting in rich pocket.

Example:
Give Bill Gates a Million Dollars he won't notice and will not affect his spending... Give 1,000 people on min wage a $1000 and they will have it spent quicky, directly changing there spending habits... This money get put through the businesses thus increasing revenue...

That is why even though there is an increase in costs there is no proof of net job losses...
Ben Carson said raising the minimum wage will increase joblessness

I am not disagreeing with you but wouldn't an increase in wages and the obvious resultant inflationary pressure hurt the poor even more?

Some of the poor, yes, because they would see hours cut, some job losses and slower hiring at the low end.

This will be a trade-off, and the betting is that the more liquid economy will ultimately create more jobs in the long run.
.

Again, how does a company cut hours and stay in business? The implication is that companies are just keeping people employed because they are cheap, is this true?

I am not arguing with you I really just don't see that happening.

Well, it depends on the economics of the business. Some businesses can get away with it through increased productivity, some would have to introduce automation, some would have to scale back/revise operations overall.

We're talking about a wide spectrum here, because businesses all have different percentages of workforces that would be affected, and different percentages of payroll vs. other costs.
.

Again, not arguing just discussing. Your first paragraph, why wouldn't a company be doing those very things regardless of the MW?

Take yourself for example, or at least what I think. You have an office I assume with a secretary. I assume your secretary makes something over the MW. Now we can assume she/he (must be PC) serves a function. If nothing else screens your calls because you are busy all day with clients, or posting on Internet web sites.

Let's just say she makes 2 dollars over the MW which is 10 dollars. MW is raised to 15 dollars meaning she now has receive a 20 percent wage increase. Where does that 20 percent come from?

Yep, fair points.

It's essentially a domino effect: Regardless of where a business is on the efficiency scale, they'll all do the same thing: First they'll look at ways to increase productivity, from software to automation to simply expecting employees to do more in the same amount of time (and there will be a LOT of that). Once they've determined what that accomplishes, next they'll look at operational efficiency, i.e., various internal systems. Then maybe they'll look at streamlining or eliminating redundant or lower-profit products and services. Maybe squeeze vendors a bit more. Then they'll have to look at hours, layoffs and/or slower hiring.

Career tip: I'll bet there will be a surge in demand for business efficiency consultants!

And also remember, I don't think we'd see that immediate jump all the way. Businesses would have some time to absorb incremental increases.
.