The minimum wage increase: The good, the bad, the unknown

Mac1958

Diamond Member
Dec 8, 2011
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Opposing Authoritarian Ideological Fundamentalism.
A perfectly rational & reasoned post by Cecilie1200 on another thread has inspired me to belch out the following thoughts on the almost inevitable minimum wage increase. Warning, no simplistic, binary, shallow bumper sticker sloganeering ahead. I'm hopeful they'll be kept to a minimum on this thread (he says, not holding his breath).

First, if we take it out to the 20,000 foot level, an increase in the minimum wage (to, say, $15) will certainly not only squeeze profits in a low-margin industry and ultimately increase retail costs, but it will necessarily set off a chain reaction of higher wages and costs right up the salary scale. It won't just be an increase in wages at the lowest end, which appears to be what the clearly informed think.

But here's where it gets interesting - what would that actually look like? Well, there's the good, the bad, and the unknown. I'll (mercifully) keep them all as short as possible, and if the thread goes anywhere, we can expand on them.

The Good: Obviously an increase in the minimum wage will put dollars (deserved or not, from a business perspective) in the hands of low-income workers, increasing their quality of life (theoretically) and provide better stability on the low end of the economic scale. And it would largely mitigate the most reasonable argument proponents of the increase have: In this country, it's absurd that people who work full time still require public assistance. That truly is a form of corporate welfare.

The Bad: As mentioned above, it will set off a chain reaction of salary increases up the scale across the board and increase prices. But more concerning is the fact that it will also lead to hours cutbacks, slower hiring and further momentum towards automation. A business has to protect itself, and unfortunately there are far too many people in this discussion who really don't have the foggiest idea what running a business involves. Further, wage inflation is mitigated somewhat by price inflation, rendering it less valuable.

The Unknown: Here's a discussion I never see. I don't have data to back this up (too lazy right now) but I'm guessing that among the most affected industries and products will be fast food and lower retail cost items. Okay, to make a long story short, perhaps we're then talking quality over quantity. So we might be less likely to buy 3 Big Macs™ and wash them down with an extra super duper size fries; we won't find ourselves buying seven $3 shirts; on the other end, more of us may settle for a 48" mondo big screen teevee instead of a 60" double mondo version. On and on.

I guess what I'm saying here is that proponents of the increase will never bring this up, I suspect because they're afraid it might damage their argument. Still, the "freedom" (there's that word) to cram our homes and mouths with a lot of cheap crap may very well dinged somewhat by this increase.

But is that necessarily a bad thing, really?


Just saying.


.
 
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You forgot to mention a couple of the negatives likely to occur with an increase in the MW.

One...it will result in higher unemployment of those unskilled, because many small business owners will not be able to afford the higher wage costs.
Two...it will result in higher use of automation, in an effort to eliminate or reduce the high cost of labor...resulting in yet more unemployment for the unskilled.

A higher MW is a jobs killer, but in America today good intentions far outweigh the facts.
 
You forgot to mention a couple of the negatives likely to occur with an increase in the MW.

One...it will result in higher unemployment of those unskilled, because many small business owners will not be able to afford the higher wage costs.
Two...it will result in higher use of automation, in an effort to eliminate or reduce the high cost of labor...resulting in yet more unemployment for the unskilled.

A higher MW is a jobs killer, but in America today good intentions far outweigh the facts.

Indeed, a higher minimum wage will destroy the economy but lower taxes for corrupt and incompetent CEOs who get $billions in bonusses will create millions of jobs....

:banana:
 
You forgot to mention a couple of the negatives likely to occur with an increase in the MW.

One...it will result in higher unemployment of those unskilled, because many small business owners will not be able to afford the higher wage costs.
Two...it will result in higher use of automation, in an effort to eliminate or reduce the high cost of labor...resulting in yet more unemployment for the unskilled.

A higher MW is a jobs killer, but in America today good intentions far outweigh the facts.

Indeed, a higher minimum wage will destroy the economy but lower taxes for corrupt and incompetent CEOs who get $billions in bonusses will create millions of jobs....

:banana:
Well Mac it didn't take long for the simplistic, binary, shallow bumper sticker sloganeering to chime in....second post.
 
A perfectly rational & reasoned post by Cecilie1200 on another thread has inspired me to belch out the following thoughts on the almost inevitable minimum wage increase. Warning, no simplistic, binary, shallow bumper sticker sloganeering ahead. I'm hopeful they'll be kept to a minimum on this thread (he says, not holding his breath).

First, if we take it out to the 20,000 foot level, an increase in the minimum wage (to, say, $15) will certainly not only squeeze profits in a low-margin industry and ultimately increase retail costs, but it will necessarily set off a chain reaction of higher wages and costs right up the salary scale. It won't just be an increase in wages at the lowest end, which appears to be what the clearly informed think.

But here's where it gets interesting - what would that actually look like? Well, there's the good, the bad, and the unknown. I'll (mercifully) keep them all as short as possible, and if the thread goes anywhere, we can expand on them.

The Good: Obviously an increase in the minimum wage will put dollars (deserved or not, from a business perspective) in the hands of low-income workers, increasing their quality of life (theoretically) and provide better stability on the low end of the economic scale. And it would largely mitigate the most reasonable argument proponents of the increase have: In this country, it's absurd that people who work full time still require public assistance. That truly is a form of corporate welfare.

The Bad: As mentioned above, it will set off a chain reaction of salary increases up the scale across the board and increase prices. But more concerning is the fact that it will also lead to hours cutbacks, slower hiring and further momentum towards automation. A business has to protect itself, and unfortunately there are far too many people in this discussion who really don't have the foggiest idea what running a business involves. Further, wage inflation is mitigated somewhat by price inflation, rendering it less valuable.

The Unknown: Here's a discussion I never see. I don't have data to back this up (too lazy right now) but I'm guessing that among the most affected industries and products will be fast food and lower retail cost items. Okay, to make a long story short, perhaps we're then talking quality over quantity. So we might be less likely to buy 3 Big Macs™ and wash them down with an extra super duper size fries; we won't find ourselves buying seven $3 shirts; on the other end, more of us may settle for a 48" mondo big screen teevee instead of a 60" double mondo version. On and on.

I guess what I'm saying here is that proponents of the increase will never bring this up, I suspect because they're afraid it might damage their argument. Still, the "freedom" (there's that word) to cram our homes and mouths with a lot of cheap crap may very well dinged somewhat by this increase.

But is that necessarily a bad thing, really?


Just saying.


.


You and the liberals are smoking crack if you all think it will set off a chain reaction of salary increases, can't squeeze blood out of a turnip...it is trickle up poor...
 
You forgot to mention a couple of the negatives likely to occur with an increase in the MW.

One...it will result in higher unemployment of those unskilled, because many small business owners will not be able to afford the higher wage costs.
Two...it will result in higher use of automation, in an effort to eliminate or reduce the high cost of labor...resulting in yet more unemployment for the unskilled.

A higher MW is a jobs killer, but in America today good intentions far outweigh the facts.

He did mention those.
 
You forgot to mention a couple of the negatives likely to occur with an increase in the MW.

One...it will result in higher unemployment of those unskilled, because many small business owners will not be able to afford the higher wage costs.
Two...it will result in higher use of automation, in an effort to eliminate or reduce the high cost of labor...resulting in yet more unemployment for the unskilled.

A higher MW is a jobs killer, but in America today good intentions far outweigh the facts.

If I owned a small business the first thing I do is hold a company meeting announcing the raise in minimum wage.
the second thing I do is tell Pedro that I have to let him go because of it.....

There you have it Libs!

Reality.....ain't it a bitch...
 
If I owned a small business the first thing I do is hold a company meeting announcing the raise in minimum wage.
the second thing I do is tell Pedro that I have to let him go because of it.....

There you have it Libs!

Reality.....ain't it a bitch...

If you have a business and you pay your employees only a minimum wage your business probably sucks anyway....

:alcoholic:
 
It might suck because of government doing all it can to shut it down.....

Excessive regulations.....
Taxes
O Care....
Increase in minimum wage.

On and on ....

And still many Americans try it...Go into business.Start their own company.
Good for them.Despite governments attempts to block them at every turn.
 
If I owned a small business the first thing I do is hold a company meeting announcing the raise in minimum wage.
the second thing I do is tell Pedro that I have to let him go because of it.....

There you have it Libs!

Reality.....ain't it a bitch...

If you have a business and you pay your employees only a minimum wage your business probably sucks anyway....

:alcoholic:
Typical.

Many small businesses employ young inexperienced workers. The MW is all their services are worth. These young workers need work experience to move ahead. Once the MW is set too high, these workers won't find jobs...but who cares as long as they vote D.
 
You forgot to mention a couple of the negatives likely to occur with an increase in the MW.

One...it will result in higher unemployment of those unskilled, because many small business owners will not be able to afford the higher wage costs.
Two...it will result in higher use of automation, in an effort to eliminate or reduce the high cost of labor...resulting in yet more unemployment for the unskilled.

A higher MW is a jobs killer, but in America today good intentions far outweigh the facts.

Indeed, a higher minimum wage will destroy the economy but lower taxes for corrupt and incompetent CEOs who get $billions in bonusses will create millions of jobs....

:banana:

Yep....I've seen two things from Republicans since the beginning of the Reagan terms:

1) Tax cuts for the wealthy

2) Borrow money from foreign banks to cover the shortfall

I might add that one in particular had a love for invading sovereign nations which had done no harm to the United States.
 
It might suck because of government doing all it can to shut it down.....

Excessive regulations.....
Taxes
O Care....
Increase in minimum wage.

On and on ....

And still many Americans try it...Go into business.Start their own company.
Good for them.Despite governments attempts to block them at every turn.

If you say so, I'm not an American so I really don't know the regulations in the homeland. Over here (EU), starting companies get all kinds of subsidies and I never hear them cry about the minimum wage.

:alcoholic:
 
Typical.

Many small businesses employ young inexperienced workers. The MW is all their services are worth. These young workers need work experience to move ahead. Once the MW is set too high, these workers won't find jobs...but who cares as long as they vote D.

Really? You guys always cry about small businesses but I bet the vast majority of the minimum wage jobs are paid by corporations like Wallmart and McDonalds.

And as I said, if your small business can't even afford a small pay rise for a few employees that business is in trouble anyway. But if it's really that big of a problem why not simply give small business a wage subsidy if they hire unemployed people? Shouldn't be a problem since the government saves $$$ by not having to pay them social security.

:alcoholic:
 
You and the liberals are smoking crack if you all think it will set off a chain reaction of salary increases, can't squeeze blood out of a turnip...it is trickle up poor...
Yes, it will have to create a chain reaction of salary increases, but companies that don't have the cash flow to handle that (and there will be many) will have to compress its work force (and/or reduce available hours) and institute other cost-cutting measures.

Those who back the increase say it will put more money in consumers hands, which in turn will cause them to spend more, which will (theoretically) put money in the hands of the employers who are having to pay more. What they don't understand is that this won't happen overnight, and low-margin businesses are going to have to react by cutting those jobs and hours.

I did see one study that says that if the increase is not done too quickly it can effectively be absorbed over time, and that was excellent news. And none of the plans I've seen call for an immediate jump to $15, although I suspect most of the minimum wage workers who are screaming for it don't realize that.

The wild card here is automation. Otherwise, the increase is coming, gang, and businesses know it.
.
 
Minimum Wage Mythbusters

Myth: Raising the federal tipped minimum wage ($2.13 per hour since 1991) would hurt restaurants.

Not true: In California, employers are required to pay servers the full minimum wage of $9 per hour — before tips. Even with a 2014 increase in the minimum wage, the National Restaurant Association projects California restaurant sales will outpace all but only a handful of states in 2015.



Myth: Raising the federal tipped minimum wage ($2.13 per hour since 1991) would lead to restaurant job losses.

Not true: As of May 2015, employers in San Francisco must pay tipped workers the full minimum wage of $12.25 per hour — before tips. Yet, the San Francisco leisure and hospitality industry, which includes full-service restaurants, has experienced positive job growth this year, including following the most recent minimum wage increase.
 
Typical.

Many small businesses employ young inexperienced workers. The MW is all their services are worth. These young workers need work experience to move ahead. Once the MW is set too high, these workers won't find jobs...but who cares as long as they vote D.

Really? You guys always cry about small businesses but I bet the vast majority of the minimum wage jobs are paid by corporations like Wallmart and McDonalds.

And as I said, if your small business can't even afford a small pay rise for a few employees that business is in trouble anyway. But if it's really that big of a problem why not simply give small business a wage subsidy if they hire unemployed people? Shouldn't be a problem since the government saves $$$ by not having to pay them social security.
:alcoholic:
It is apparent you know NOTHING about small business. McDonald's is a franchise operation...no doubt you don't know what that means.

There are close to 30 million small businesses in the US. They employ millions of Americans...you fool.

Please get informed before posting again...you fool.

Small businesses comprise what share of the U.S. economy?

Small businesses make up:
99.7 percent of U.S. employer firms,
64 percent of net new private-sector jobs,
49.2 percent of private-sector employment,
42.9 percent of private-sector payroll,
46 percent of private-sector output,
43 percent of high-tech employment,
98 percent of firms exporting goods, and 33 percent of exporting value.

Source: U.S. Census Bureau, SUSB, CPS; International Trade Administration; Bureau of Labor Statistics, BED; Advocacy-funded research, Small Business GDP: Update 2002- 2010, www.sba.gov/advocacy/7540/42371.
 
Typical.

Many small businesses employ young inexperienced workers. The MW is all their services are worth. These young workers need work experience to move ahead. Once the MW is set too high, these workers won't find jobs...but who cares as long as they vote D.

Really? You guys always cry about small businesses but I bet the vast majority of the minimum wage jobs are paid by corporations like Wallmart and McDonalds.

And as I said, if your small business can't even afford a small pay rise for a few employees that business is in trouble anyway. But if it's really that big of a problem why not simply give small business a wage subsidy if they hire unemployed people? Shouldn't be a problem since the government saves $$$ by not having to pay them social security.
:alcoholic:
It is apparent you know NOTHING about small business. McDonald's is a franchise operation...no doubt you don't know what that means.

There are close to 30 million small businesses in the US. They employ millions of Americans...you fool. Vastly more Americans are employed by small businesses than big business...you fool.

Please get informed before posting again...you fool.

Small businesses comprise what share of the U.S. economy?

Small businesses make up:
99.7 percent of U.S. employer firms,
64 percent of net new private-sector jobs,
49.2 percent of private-sector employment,
42.9 percent of private-sector payroll,
46 percent of private-sector output,
43 percent of high-tech employment,
98 percent of firms exporting goods, and 33 percent of exporting value.

Source: U.S. Census Bureau, SUSB, CPS; International Trade Administration; Bureau of Labor Statistics, BED; Advocacy-funded research, Small Business GDP: Update 2002- 2010, www.sba.gov/advocacy/7540/42371.

Hmm, what exactly is the definition of a small business?

:alcoholic:
 

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