The lefties want "equality". Is equality possible?

[Londoner]

Every citizen would get free, gov't provided healthcare. No costs, ever, for any treatment.

If your taxes went to expanded health care rather than corrupt wars, the middle class would have more money to spend right now. Instead, there is zero demand.

The Right told us we could remove all the postwar mechanisms that buttressed middle class demand. They told us that if we made the wealthiest Americans even wealthier, the money would trickle down into solid jobs and benefits for the middle class -- and consumer demand would follow.

So we bought it. We spent 30 of rolling back government investment in the middle class so we could give tax cuts to corporations and the wealthy. Did the promised jobs and benefits trickle down? Nope, they trickled to China and India. Consequently, the American middle class had less and less money to spend, while money and political power became increasingly concentrated in a place where it was used to buy elections, regulators, and legislation.

How did we compensate for the fact that the money was getting stuck on top and wasn't sufficiently trickling down to the average middle class consumer? Answer: we built the largest credit economy on earth, i.e., we loaned the middle class the money they used to make in wages and benefits. We went on a 30 year debt binge: we sustained the largest consumption economy on earth with credit. Eventually, of course, we broke the bank.

The moral of the story: we don't want a distribution scheme which leaves one class with enough money to buy Washington and the media, while another requires terminal credit to keep the real economy going. If our taxes went to things like affordable health care for all (as opposed to corrupt wars), the middle class would have more money to spend right now and the economy wouldn't be a deflationary spiral. People on the right don't get it: when Reagan decided to give corporations cheap labor and roll back middle class support programs, he choked demand. When he tried to compensate for this policy failure with an over-reliance on credit instruments, he destroyed the thing that separates us from the 3rd world: the middle class.

America R.I.P
1776-1980

 

[California Girl]

We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal...

Key word: created. That does not mean everybody is always equal all through life.

 

[Annie]

We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal...

They start off equal. They are all equally free. They should be equal in the eyes of the law.

But the reality, you have people like John McCain getting into the Naval Academy based on Daddy pulling strings. Or George Bush being jumped over thousands more qualified to get into Harvard based on Daddy pulling strings. You see, Affirmative Action is OK as long as it helps only rich white people.

and many on the left believe it's ok for the NBPP to become poll watchers. It's ok for the Justice Department to gerrymander via section 5 a great number of states. It's ok for DOJ to send 'investigators' to various states with histories of voter registration fraud, to prevent groups from trying to shine a lot on the systemic registration fraud.

Yeah, you're all about equal protection, as long as it favors the outcome you wish. It's not about equal protection it's about the means justifying the ends.

 

[California Girl]

They start off equal. They are all equally free. They should be equal in the eyes of the law.

But the reality, you have people like John McCain getting into the Naval Academy based on Daddy pulling strings. Or George Bush being jumped over thousands more qualified to get into Harvard based on Daddy pulling strings. You see, Affirmative Action is OK as long as it helps only rich white people.

Or Obama getting into Harvard because he's black?

Except that being the Editor of the Harvard Law Review means he was in the top 10% of his class. He taught "Constitutional Law" at the University Level for 10 years. He went to Harvard based on "student loans" which he didn't finish paying off until his forties. They were "paid off" from the money he received when he wrote two best selling books.

The right just want to hate him so much, that fucking "black guy" in the "WHITE" House, they just can't see him as a hard working American who actually represents the American Dream going from "food stamps" to the nation's highest elected office. They will never see anything good from Obama. They refuse too. The hate is simply too deep.

Like I said before, his name could be "George Washington Lincoln" born in Washington DC under a Cherry tree and delivered by Ron Paul and the right would still hate him. They can deny it all they want, but they are a Conservative Confederate Party that is 90% white. That is the reality.

Firstly, he had to get into Harvard before he became Editor. So that point is idiotic.

Secondly, he got a PolSci degree from Columbia. That degree, at best, showed a GPA of 3.3. That's not an overly brilliant or even vaguely decent score.

Third, the post of Editor - when Obama was at Harvard - was by vote - so you can't say he was top 10.

And... if he was "top 10", please 'splain where the extra intellect came from... cuz he sure as hell wasn't setting records at Columbia.

 

[Granny]

Equality, equality. Has anyone ever considered how boring we would be if everybody had the exact same thoughts, same opinions, same clothes, same talent, same income, same house, and the list of sameness goes on and on.

We are not equal by design. "Equality" should not infer an absolute state of being. We are designed to think differently, act differently ... we have choices ... and many times it's that choice that makes the difference in our "equality" one to another. There will NEVER be a state of total equality. There will never be a state of complete peace - there will always be wars, sickness, wellness, goodness, evil, freedom and slavery.

Rather than being hung up so much on those who "have" and those who "have-not" maybe we should just be thankful for those things we do have. I'd far rather be a poor, healthy person than be a filthy rich person with diseases that can't be cured regardless.

It's what we do with our lives that really matters.

 

[editec]

Saw the following quote in another thread:

"Your apparent definition of leftism isn't remotely accurate. To go for as uncontroversial and official a defintion as possible, we turn to the dictionary where a leftist is described as: "someone who seeks radical social and economic change in the direction of greater equality. "

Leftist | Define Leftist at Dictionary.com"

I thought about it, and pondered a wonderful debate. The left, it seems, wants a large government to guarantee social equality, while the right, it seems, would rather have the freedom to succeed above what others may attain. Very general, but for debate and the above definition, it seems the farther left we get, the more "equality" becomes a catch phrase, and to the right we get more "freedom" used as a term.

So, this question is mostly for lefties. Can we have equality?

What if we could construct a government that guaranteed equal income for all citizens? Every citizen in the USA would make $60,000 a year. I'm sure we have enough $$ in the USA to make that happen. No more, no less.

Every citizen would get free, gov't provided healthcare. No costs, ever, for any treatment.

Every citizen would get free school. College and high school. And housing.

But would we not then bicker about other "inequalities"? Some would have to live in apartments, while others in houses. Not fair? Lets say we somehow made that fair. Others would whine about their school not being as nice, which we already have in public education.

But lets say by some miracle, all public schools were made equal. Somehow we accomplish that ultimate educational dream.

Would folks then not complain that their comfort levels are not equal? That why do they have to live in Akron, OH, and not San Diego, CA?? Because remember, with equal pay, home prices would be nearly equal, so everyone would want to live in the nicer areas. With no rich people, and no poor people, we'd all be middle class. Who gets to live in the ocean front homes, and who gets stuck in Southwest Atlanta?????

But lets say somehow, some miraculous way, we made all 300,000,000 US citizens equal in pay, education, employment, housing, healthcare. We delivered the total utopian dream!!!

Would we not then have folks crying inequality in stuff like attractiveness of wives? Sounds silly, but imagine everyone is equal, in all aspects of life except physical appearance. Wouldn't the fat single people claim discrimination by the thin people who won't date them? We damn near have that going on now.

Can't we just face a fact: Envy is human nature. We cannot provide total equality. But we can provide equal opportunity. We cannot provide an equal starting point. But we can provide an unlimited stopping point. Somewhere out there are 2 kids born today, 1 kid is born into wealth, another into poverty, and in 40 years, the poor kid will be rich and the rich kid will be poor, because of personal decisions.

So, can we provide total equality?

No.

But that doesn't mean we ought to exascerbate inequality and make it permanent via tax codes and policies that favor them what has, either.

Now before you call me a communist consider this from Andrew Carnegie (once the second richest man in the world).

He not only makes a good case for INEQUALITY, but also make a good case for why the government needs to see to it that wealth inequality doesn't end up creating a GENTRY CLASS.

Carnegie.Gospel of Wealth

Seriously, those of you who imagine that taxing estates is evil haven't really thought it through very seriously.

If you believe in democracy, you really also have to sign on to the theory that massive inequality of wealth allowed to continue from one generation to the next spells the end of anything remotely like a democratic republic.

What that inevitably leads to is feudalism.

 

[Sallow]

Who is going to pick up the trash? Do the dishes? Cook the food?

Does that labor have value?

 

[editec]

Who is going to pick up the trash? Do the dishes? Cook the food?

Does that labor have value?

All human wealth is the result of labor.

Even gold lying in the ground isn't really wealthy until a human hand picks it up.

 

[LiberalNut]

why do conservatives so often start a thread with a silly assumption about "lefties" and then proceed on as if their assumption was in any way correct?

Cause that's what they are trained to do. They don't want to argue any real world situations or policies. On that, they would lose. So, they mistate the positions of the opposition and then argue against their own creation. It's like the oldest an most common logical fallacy in the book. It's called a strawman argument.

Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The problem is, among the weak minded, logically fallacious arguments work.

 

[California Girl]

We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal...

Really?

Unequal in form

unequal in status

unequal in resources and opportunity

in what sense, save the most vague metaphysical rhetoric, are they equal?

You do realize that the rest of the world didn't sign up to our Constitution, right?

We, as Americans, are created equal. It's not applicable world wide... Our constitution does not impact on other countries. That would be imperialistic of us - to enforce our rights on others.

 

[LiberalNut]

We, as Americans, are created equal.

That isn't what the Declaration says. Indeed, at the time that document was written, there was no United States of America.

Careful, your jingoism is showing.

 

[Sallow]

Who is going to pick up the trash? Do the dishes? Cook the food?

Does that labor have value?

All human wealth is the result of labor.

Even gold lying in the ground isn't really wealthy until a human hand picks it up.

Well yeah.

But in our current culture..manual labor of any sort is de-valued and almost looked upon as a negative to be automated away.

And we now have a monied class of people that make the rounds at major corporations, firing people, making risky decisions that might yield short term profit...and garners them handsome incomes..before they skedaddle out to the next company before their "work" really takes effect.

And lately (well basically over the last 100 years) the "labor" class has to make up for the losses.

 

[LiberalNut]

Not all labor is physical.

Labor is defined as the total mental and physical effort put into creating a good or service.

 

[California Girl]

Does that labor have value?

All human wealth is the result of labor.

Even gold lying in the ground isn't really wealthy until a human hand picks it up.

Well yeah.

But in our current culture..manual labor of any sort is de-valued and almost looked upon as a negative to be automated away.

And we now have a monied class of people that make the rounds at major corporations, firing people, making risky decisions that might yield short term profit...and garners them handsome incomes..before they skedaddle out to the next company before their "work" really takes effect.

And lately (well basically over the last 100 years) the "labor" class has to make up for the losses.

That attidude towards manual labor is much more prevalent on the left than the right. Conservatives tend to respect those who work - whatever that work may be. The left seem obsessed with academic qualifications... and consider those who do manual work 'beneath' them.

 

[Sallow]

In our current economic structure.."equality" is impossible..but "parity" is possible.

 

[LiberalNut]

Yeah, the left is composed of the pointy-headed academic types.

Check back a few posts for my schpiel on the straw man.

Of all the things that irk me about the weak minded right, the anti-intellectualism of the thing is the most disgusting aspect.

 

[Sallow]

All human wealth is the result of labor.

Even gold lying in the ground isn't really wealthy until a human hand picks it up.

Well yeah.

But in our current culture..manual labor of any sort is de-valued and almost looked upon as a negative to be automated away.

And we now have a monied class of people that make the rounds at major corporations, firing people, making risky decisions that might yield short term profit...and garners them handsome incomes..before they skedaddle out to the next company before their "work" really takes effect.

And lately (well basically over the last 100 years) the "labor" class has to make up for the losses.

That attidude towards manual labor is much more prevalent on the left than the right. Conservatives tend to respect those who work - whatever that work may be. The left seem obsessed with academic qualifications... and consider those who do manual work 'beneath' them.

Curses..foiled again.

Your mind is much like the Panzer Tank or Stuka dive bombers..

But I will leave you with:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80lLU5-yji8[/ame]

Should make you all warm and tingly inside..

 

[Sallow]

Yeah, the left is composed of the pointy-headed academic types.

Check back a few posts for my schpiel on the straw man.

Of all the things that irk me about the weak minded right, the anti-intellectualism of the thing is the most disgusting aspect.

To pay for college I drove a truck and moved furniture. After graduating I stayed at that job for 6 more years.

Pointy headed academic I was back then..I'll tell you what..

 

[Bern80]

Anyway, the equality the left hopes for is the equality of opportunity. That everyone receive equal and quality education, health care, and that their bare needs are met so that the playing field is even and everyone has the freedom to achieve what they can based on their merits rather than what they were born into. It's not the permanent enforcement of rigid equality throughout life, it's just a truly fair shot.

Harrison Bergeron

So you would agree that Affirmative Action is a discriminatory and unjust policy? That one should be hired based only on their merits and not what they were born into (their skin)?

I think what you are getting at is the idea of an equal starting point in life. Thats never gonna happen. It's true, some start farther ahead than others. But in the US, we can guarantee no boundaries to the level of achievment possible. Yes, it's harder to come from a poor home and make it than it is a rich home. And I recognize, and applaud, the idea that it is a noble thing for rich parents, or middle class parents, to try to get their kids that head start.

I think proper education is absolutely the key. Now, to me the big elephant in the room is how do we get good education to children born into poverty? Thats truly the way to success. We have free public schools. I also believe in school vouchers, which the left....or should I say, the education unions, FIERCLY oppose, although it would help poor kids get to better schools, and pressure bad schools to improve.

We also need just good old fashion parental discipline to help some of these poor kids in school respect the teachers, and want to learn b/c they don't want their parents to be mad at them. Good ole fear of mom and dad helped me get good grades. The discipline thing goes for kids of all wealth classes, but as you and I agree, it's easier to be a bad student when you are rich and end up ok later in life.

WHO ARE YOU? What have done with rdean? I DEMAND TO KNOW. I know rdean. These rationale statements are not the rdean I know.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Yeah, the left is composed of the pointy-headed academic types.

Check back a few posts for my schpiel on the straw man.

Of all the things that irk me about the weak minded right, the anti-intellectualism of the thing is the most disgusting aspect.

Well, I guess this post pretty much sums up the tone of the thread... anti-intellectualism indeed. No, more like anit-I'mbetterthanyouism.

Pinhead.