The FBI lied about armed civilians stopping active shooters.

[2aguy]

A look at the FBI lying about armed civilians stopping active shooters….

We need to take back this country…

The FBI massively erred about civilians stopping active shooters

I’m one of those who believes that what stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Sometimes, that good guy is a police officer, and sometimes, the good guy is a civilian. Leftists claim that the good guys’ contribution is so in...

www.americanthinker.com

 

[JoeB131]

According to FBI statistics, only 200 gun homicides are ruled as "Justified" by civilians. (We'll leave the ones by cops to the side, because cops can shoot children with their hands up and still be called "Justified.")

Compared to

19,000 gun homicides that aren't justified.
23,000 gun suicides
70,000 gun injuries
400,000 gun crimes.

Why the hell do we live like this?

 

[M14 Shooter]

A look at the FBI lying about armed civilians stopping active shooters….
We need to take back this country…

The FBI massively erred about civilians stopping active shooters

I’m one of those who believes that what stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Sometimes, that good guy is a police officer, and sometimes, the good guy is a civilian. Leftists claim that the good guys’ contribution is so in...

www.americanthinker.com

Color me surprised.

 

[M14 Shooter]

According to FBI statistics, only 200 gun homicides are ruled as "Justified" by civilians.

 

[2aguy]

According to FBI statistics, only 200 gun homicides are ruled as "Justified" by civilians. (We'll leave the ones by cops to the side, because cops can shoot children with their hands up and still be called "Justified.")

Compared to

19,000 gun homicides that aren't justified.
23,000 gun suicides
70,000 gun injuries
400,000 gun crimes.

Why the hell do we live like this?

Meanwhile, actual research shows Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year for self defense....according to the Centers for Disease control.....1.5 million times a year according to the Dept. of Justice research.....and then you have these studies on the topic...

Lives saved....based on research? By law abiding gun owners using guns to stop criminals?



Case Closed: Kleck Is Still Correct



that makes for at least 176,000 lives saved—

==============

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)


2021 national firearm survey, Prof. William English, PhD. designed by Deborah Azrael of Harvard T. Chan School of public policy, and Mathew Miller, Northeastern university.......1.67 million defensive uses annually.

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

2021 national firearms survey..

The survey was designed by Deborah Azrael of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, and Matthew Miller of Northeastern University,
----
The survey further finds that approximately a third of gun owners (31.1%) have used a firearm to defend themselves or their property, often on more than one occasion, and it estimates that guns are used defensively by firearms owners in approximately 1.67 million incidents per year. Handguns are the most common firearm employed for self-defense (used in 65.9% of defensive incidents), and in most defensive incidents (81.9%) no shot was fired. Approximately a quarter (25.2%) of defensive incidents occurred within the gun owner's home, and approximately half (53.9%) occurred outside their home, but on their property. About one out of ten (9.1%) defensive gun uses occurred in public, and about one out of twenty (4.8%) occurred at work.
2021 National Firearms Survey

Clinton's study by the DOJ....

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf

Applying those restrictions leaves 19 NSPOF respondents (0.8 percent of the sample), representing 1.5 million defensive users. This estimate is directly comparable to the well-known estimate of Kleck and Gertz, shown in the last column of exhibit 7. While the NSPOF estimate is smaller, it is statistically plausible that the difference is due to sampling error. Inclusion of multiple DGUs reported by half of the 19 NSPOF respondents increases the estimate to 4.7 million DGUs.



n the third column of Table 6.2, we apply the Kleck and Gertz (1995) criteria for "genuine" DGUs (type A), leaving us with just 19 respondents. They represent 1.5 million defensive users. This estimate is directly comparable to the well-known Kleck and Gertz estimate of 2.5 million, shown in the last

While ours is smaller, it is staistically plausible that the difference is due to sampling error. to the when we include the multiple DGUs victim. defensive reported by half our 19 respondents, our estimate increases to 4.7 milli

While ours is smaller, it is statistically plausible that the difference petrator; in most cases (69 percent), the is due to sampling error. Note that when we include the multiple DGUs reported by half our 19 respondents, our estimate increases to 4.7 million DGUs.
----

As shown in Table 6.6, the defender fired his or her gun in 27 percent of these incidents (combined "fire warning shots" and "fire at perpetrator" percentages, though some respondents reported firing both warning shots and airning at the perpetrator). Forty percent of these were "warning shots," and about a third were aimed at the perpetrator but missed. The perpetrator was wounded by the crime victim in eight percent of all DGUs. In nine percent of DGUs the victim captured and held the perpetrator at gunpoint until the police could arrive.

Obama's study...

Defensive Use of Guns

Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed (Cook and Ludwig, 1996; Kleck, 2001a). Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010).
National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine. 2013. Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence. Washington, DC: The National Academies Press. Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence | The National Academies Press.

Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence | Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence | The National Academies Press

 

[JoeB131]

Meanwhile, actual research shows Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year for self defense....

All bullshit.

Where are all the dead criminals?

 

[2aguy]

All bullshit.

Where are all the dead criminals?

Idiot…most criminals run away or surrender…….the really stupid one get shot, but don’t die……….

 

[Batcat]

According to FBI statistics, only 200 gun homicides are ruled as "Justified" by civilians. (We'll leave the ones by cops to the side, because cops can shoot children with their hands up and still be called "Justified.")

Compared to

19,000 gun homicides that aren't justified.
23,000 gun suicides
70,000 gun injuries
400,000 gun crimes.

Why the hell do we live like this?

You should consider that it is not necessary for a handgun to kill an attacker to be successful for self defense.

Many attackers will run when they realize their victims are armed. Handguns are not as deadly as portrayed in the movies and on TV. Often an attacker can be shot and still survive if he get assistance in time.

Often attacks where a handgun is used for self defense but nobody is shot are not reported for use in statistics.

 

[2aguy]

You should consider that it is not necessary for a handgun to kill an attacker to be successful for self defense.

Many attackers will run when they realize their victims are armed. Handguns are not as deadly as portrayed in the movies and on TV. Often an attacker can be shot and still survive if he get assistance in time.

Often attacks where a handgun is used for self defense but nobody is shot are not reported for use in statistics.

He knows.....has been told over and over.....he is trolling and lying.

 

[JoeB131]

Idiot…most criminals run away or surrender…….the really stupid one get shot, but don’t die……….

You should consider that it is not necessary for a handgun to kill an attacker to be successful for self defense.

Okay, let's look at this.

the FBI says that only 200 people a year are killed by civilians using guns in justified self defense. This is just as likely to be an abusive partner than a home invader, but these are the ones that the FBI rules justified.

If you accept the ridiculous 1 million number , you'd have to believe that bad guys run away 99.98% of the time. Even if you accept the more conservative 49,000 DGU number offered by the FBI, you'd have to believe bad guys run away 99.6% of the time.

This is an absolutely absurd number, which just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

 

[2aguy]

Okay, let's look at this.

the FBI says that only 200 people a year are killed by civilians using guns in justified self defense. This is just as likely to be an abusive partner than a home invader, but these are the ones that the FBI rules justified.

If you accept the ridiculous 1 million number , you'd have to believe that bad guys run away 99.98% of the time. Even if you accept the more conservative 49,000 DGU number offered by the FBI, you'd have to believe bad guys run away 99.6% of the time.

This is an absolutely absurd number, which just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

19 actual studies from both government and private researchers say you are wrong.

 

[JoeB131]

19 actual studies from both government and private researchers say you are wrong.

the numbers are the numbers....

If there are a million DGU's, you should have at LEAST 10,000 dead bodies, if even 1% of the incidents required shooting someone.

Where are the dead bodies?

I mean, I know where the dead bodies are from NON-DGU's... 19,000 homicides and 23,000 suicides every year.

But where are the dead bodies from these supposed 1 million or 5 million DGU's?

 

[Batcat]

Okay, let's look at this.

the FBI says that only 200 people a year are killed by civilians using guns in justified self defense. This is just as likely to be an abusive partner than a home invader, but these are the ones that the FBI rules justified.

If you accept the ridiculous 1 million number , you'd have to believe that bad guys run away 99.98% of the time. Even if you accept the more conservative 49,000 DGU number offered by the FBI, you'd have to believe bad guys run away 99.6% of the time.

This is an absolutely absurd number, which just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

The FBI was taking about homicides. Look that word up in your dictionary — it involves death. You can defend yourself successfully from an attacker with a firearm and not kill him. Often with a handgun you can shoot a person and just wound him. Even if you hit him in a critical area he can survive if he gets help in time.

There were three times a handgun was used for self defense in my family. No one was shot.

In the 1920s time frame, my mother was walking home from work when a man who had been hiding behind some bushes rushed her. She had a small S&W LadySmith revolver in her purse and fired two shots over the man’s head. He turned and ran away.

My uncle who was handicapped had a flat tire with his mother and his wife in his car. A man stopped to help them change the tire. When the task was complete my uncle offered him some money and the guy said, “Why not just give me your wallet,” My uncle pulled a snub nosed revolver from his pocket and said, “I could give you some of this.“ The man turned and walked away. My uncle had a bad limp from leg damage stuffed in an accident in his childhood, but he was no fool. He realized predators would see him as a weak member of the herd.

In the 1990s my daughter woke to an alarm going off and entered the kitchen to find a man who was forcing a sliding glass door open. She pointed a large S&W revolver at him and he ran.

I have no idea if there are a million incidents where a firearm is successfully used to stop an attack. However I have a feeling that there are a large number of such incidents, perhaps hundreds of thousands.

I have carried a concealed firearm legally for the last 30 years. Fortunately I have never had to draw it. I hope that continues to hold true.

 

[JoeB131]

The FBI was taking about homicides. Look that word up in your dictionary — it involves death. You can defend yourself successfully from an attacker with a firearm and not kill him. Often with a handgun you can shoot a person and just wound him. Even if you hit him in a critical area he can survive if he gets help in time.

Yeah, that really doesn't work.

There are 70,000 gun injuries each year, and very few of those are involved in DGU's, either.

Looking at your three anecdotes, only one of those seems like it was absolutely a crime.

the other one sounds like your uncle threatened a guy who just helped him change a flat tire, and the first one could have just been firing at some fool who surprised her.

You hear enough stories about people who shoot their neighbors or family members because they "thought" they were burglars.

Florida man accidentally shoots, kills son-in-law who was trying to surprise him for his birthday: Sheriff

The father-in-law will not be charged, said the sheriff.

abcnews.go.com

Father accidentally shoots son in Oklahoma City, officials say

A father accidentally shot his son in Oklahoma City, according to police.

www.koco.com

 

[AZrailwhale]

Okay, let's look at this.

the FBI says that only 200 people a year are killed by civilians using guns in justified self defense. This is just as likely to be an abusive partner than a home invader, but these are the ones that the FBI rules justified.

If you accept the ridiculous 1 million number , you'd have to believe that bad guys run away 99.98% of the time. Even if you accept the more conservative 49,000 DGU number offered by the FBI, you'd have to believe bad guys run away 99.6% of the time.

This is an absolutely absurd number, which just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

That’s a reasonable number. Criminals want defenseless victims, not people capable and willing to resist. The only time I had to use a weapon to defend myself, I was approached by a criminal who pulled a knife on me and demanded my money. When I pulled my own knife he backed down very quickly claiming to not want any trouble and left quickly. That’s how almost all defensive gun/weapon uses go. Just seeing a weapon induces criminals to go look for another victim. The potential victim rarely has to actually use his weapon.

 

[JoeB131]

That’s a reasonable number. Criminals want defenseless victims, not people capable and willing to resist. The only time I had to use a weapon to defend myself, I was approached by a criminal who pulled a knife on me and demanded my money. When I pulled my own knife he backed down very quickly claiming to not want any trouble and left quickly. That’s how almost all defensive gun/weapon uses go. Just seeing a weapon induces criminals to go look for another victim. The potential victim rarely has to actually use his weapon.

Again, 200 actual fatalities vs, supposedly a million DGU's.

You'd have better probabilities in winning the lottery.

Watching all these gun nuts say how they just can't wait to use their gun on a criminal, and that happy, happy day comes, and 99.998% of them refrain from doing so?

 

[AZrailwhale]

Again, 200 actual fatalities vs, supposedly a million DGU's.

You'd have better probabilities in winning the lottery.

Watching all these gun nuts say how they just can't wait to use their gun on a criminal, and that happy, happy day comes, and 99.998% of them refrain from doing so?

You are being an idiot as usual. When study after study, many done by anti-gun groups, say the the same thing, denying it just makes you look stupid. Defensive gun use does not mean pulling the trigger, it means using the gun to deter a criminal.

 

[JoeB131]

You are being an idiot as usual. When study after study, many done by anti-gun groups, say the the same thing, denying it just makes you look stupid. Defensive gun use does not mean pulling the trigger, it means using the gun to deter a criminal.

Except they don't say the same thing. The numbers in "estimated" DGU's fluctuate wildly, with characters like Lott and Kleck estimating in the millions while people more connected with planet Earth put them at the tens of thousands.

Those are pretty wide gaps in estimates...

 

[AZrailwhale]

Except they don't say the same thing. The numbers in "estimated" DGU's fluctuate wildly, with characters like Lott and Kleck estimating in the millions while people more connected with planet Earth put them at the tens of thousands.

Those are pretty wide gaps in estimates...

Mother Earth and the DOJ (who has more access to data than anyone else) both put the numbers on the high side. The DOJ numbers from way back in 1997 was 1,500,000 defensive gun uses that year.

Every single survey shows much higher results than you claim. Why is it so hard to admit that you are wrong? On thread after thread, you twist and turn and distort things rather than just admit that you are wrong about something, anything at all. Are you really that insecure?

 

[AZrailwhale]

Except they don't say the same thing. The numbers in "estimated" DGU's fluctuate wildly, with characters like Lott and Kleck estimating in the millions while people more connected with planet Earth put them at the tens of thousands.

Those are pretty wide gaps in estimates...

The smallest one that I’ve seen is fifty thousand.