The effectiveness of the "enhanced" techniques.

are you REALLY this sarcasm challenged?

OK sarcasm master, what's the difference?
how many ways can the word "is" be defined?
now, how many ways can "torture" be defined?
some people can claim that the chair they sit in is torture, or the bed they sleep on, or just having to wait for information
now try again

In reference Bill Clinton's statement "it depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is", it was clear that he was making the distinction of whether there was at present a relationship or whether there had ever been a relationship between he and Lewinsky. Of course righties pretended not to understand that distinction. I'm not defending that distinction, just that it was a real distinction.

Obviously, in the context of the use of the word torture we are talking about the use of physical or psycological mistreatment of prisoners, both of which are prohibited by the US Constitution (no cruel or unusual punishment) and US treaties and law. And of course now righties are pretending that there is some distinction to make even though the practice of waterboarding has been consideed torture in the civilized world since the Spanish Inquisition. There is no doubt that waterboarding is both cruel and unusual as well as illegal.

This is not about whether the word torture can be used in a casual 'figure of speach way' but whether the President of the United States authorized the illegal use of torture.

We need a special prosecuter to fully vet all information in regards to this. We must have the truth if we are to put this disgraceful episode behind us.
 
OK sarcasm master, what's the difference?
how many ways can the word "is" be defined?
now, how many ways can "torture" be defined?
some people can claim that the chair they sit in is torture, or the bed they sleep on, or just having to wait for information
now try again

In reference Bill Clinton's statement "it depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is", it was clear that he was making the distinction of whether there was at present a relationship or whether there had ever been a relationship between he and Lewinsky. Of course righties pretended not to understand that distinction. I'm not defending that distinction, just that it was a real distinction.

Obviously, in the context of the use of the word torture we are talking about the use of physical or psycological mistreatment of prisoners, both of which are prohibited by the US Constitution (no cruel or unusual punishment) and US treaties and law. And of course now righties are pretending that there is some distinction to make even though the practice of waterboarding has been consideed torture in the civilized world since the Spanish Inquisition. There is no doubt that waterboarding is both cruel and unusual as well as illegal.

This is not about whether the word torture can be used in a casual 'figure of speach way' but whether the President of the United States authorized the illegal use of torture.

We need a special prosecuter to fully vet all information in regards to this. We must have the truth if we are to put this disgraceful episode behind us.
more bullshit from the left
:rolleyes:
 
how many ways can the word "is" be defined?
now, how many ways can "torture" be defined?
some people can claim that the chair they sit in is torture, or the bed they sleep on, or just having to wait for information
now try again

In reference Bill Clinton's statement "it depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is", it was clear that he was making the distinction of whether there was at present a relationship or whether there had ever been a relationship between he and Lewinsky. Of course righties pretended not to understand that distinction. I'm not defending that distinction, just that it was a real distinction.

Obviously, in the context of the use of the word torture we are talking about the use of physical or psycological mistreatment of prisoners, both of which are prohibited by the US Constitution (no cruel or unusual punishment) and US treaties and law. And of course now righties are pretending that there is some distinction to make even though the practice of waterboarding has been consideed torture in the civilized world since the Spanish Inquisition. There is no doubt that waterboarding is both cruel and unusual as well as illegal.

This is not about whether the word torture can be used in a casual 'figure of speach way' but whether the President of the United States authorized the illegal use of torture.

We need a special prosecuter to fully vet all information in regards to this. We must have the truth if we are to put this disgraceful episode behind us.
more bullshit from the left
:rolleyes:

It's not torture, it's enhanced interogation. It's not dark, there's just a lack of light.
 
yes, how do you think obama knew that the techniques did gain intelligence? if they did not exist, why would obama not claim cheney is a liar and state there are no memos....instead, obama said he would not release them...obama has never once said cheney was wrong for saying the techniques saved lives.

obama would be the first to jump on that, but he hasn't, all he said was the techniques worked and were successful....

:lol: :cuckoo:

care to explain what is funny or cuckoo or is it basically yurt kicked my ass and this is the only way i can make it look like i won the point :lol:

verification. :cuckoo:
 
Obama's own...
Bush-era interrogation may have worked, Obama official says - CNN.com
High-value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qaeda organization that was attacking this country," Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair said in a memo to personnel.

cute, but off topic. the topic IS what Cheney was addressing at GITMO and in the case ofa particular detainee. The CIA agent who was there said that the high value target gave uo the info before EIT/torture was used.

end of story.

now go back to bed and dream up some other bull shit you fucking dolt. :eusa_whistle:
 
Going back to the beginning of this whole torture shit. Our illustrious John Yu who told the Bush/Cheney that it was okay to torture went to the extent that it was justifiable to torture a terrorist's child (specifically crush his scrotum) in front of the terrorist to get him to give information.

Please tell me if anyone here supports that.
 
OK sarcasm master, what's the difference?
how many ways can the word "is" be defined?
now, how many ways can "torture" be defined?
some people can claim that the chair they sit in is torture, or the bed they sleep on, or just having to wait for information
now try again

In reference Bill Clinton's statement "it depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is", it was clear that he was making the distinction of whether there was at present a relationship or whether there had ever been a relationship between he and Lewinsky. Of course righties pretended not to understand that distinction. I'm not defending that distinction, just that it was a real distinction.

Obviously, in the context of the use of the word torture we are talking about the use of physical or psycological mistreatment of prisoners, both of which are prohibited by the US Constitution (no cruel or unusual punishment) and US treaties and law. And of course now righties are pretending that there is some distinction to make even though the practice of waterboarding has been consideed torture in the civilized world since the Spanish Inquisition. There is no doubt that waterboarding is both cruel and unusual as well as illegal.

This is not about whether the word torture can be used in a casual 'figure of speach way' but whether the President of the United States authorized the illegal use of torture.

We need a special prosecuter to fully vet all information in regards to this. We must have the truth if we are to put this disgraceful episode behind us.

ROFLMNAO...

Right wingers merely pointed to the Clinton attempt to parse what was otherwise an opportunity to simply respond with the answer: NO!

Clinton was under oathe and being questioned on a very serious matter; and he chose to play semantics... he is a dumbass... and a criminal of the highest order.

The word Torture is a word which imparts serious physical injury... it imparts PUNISHMENT and other nefarious ends... from a cruel and loathesome means... Inducing stress, to cull TIME SENSITIVE information from INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE REASONABLY BELIEVED TO BE IN POSESSION OF INFORMATION WHICH CAN PREVENT THE SLAUGHTER OF INNOCENT HUMAN BEINGS IS.... NOT TORTURE, or anything remotely close to it.

Now you DESPERATELY NEED TO DECLARE OTHERWISE... but that is because you suffer the same intellectual limitations and the subversive tendencies of D'er SCHLICKMEISTER...

Capiche?
 
Going back to the beginning of this whole torture shit. Our illustrious John Yu who told the Bush/Cheney that it was okay to torture went to the extent that it was justifiable to torture a terrorist's child (specifically crush his scrotum) in front of the terrorist to get him to give information.

Please tell me if anyone here supports that.

No one in the Bush administration told ANYONE in the Bush administration that it was OK to TORTURE anyone...

Thus the premise is demonstrably false... and here's how that is demonstrated:

Pogue, cite the evidence which you MUST have in your possession to make this assertion; wherein you can show that SOMEONE in the Bush administration told the President that it was "OK to TORTURE PEOPLE..."

Now when you fail to do so... you will concede, if only by default that you're a lyin' sack of leftism.
 
Obama's own...
Bush-era interrogation may have worked, Obama official says - CNN.com
High-value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qaeda organization that was attacking this country," Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair said in a memo to personnel.

cute, but off topic. the topic IS what Cheney was addressing at GITMO and in the case ofa particular detainee. The CIA agent who was there said that the high value target gave uo the info before EIT/torture was used.

end of story.

now go back to bed and dream up some other bull shit you fucking dolt. :eusa_whistle:

It's on topic, Obama's own acknowledged the effectiveness of EIT's...are you losing it?

This is the title of the thread right?

The effectiveness of the "enhanced" techniques.
 
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In March of 2003, the Bush administration thought it had a gold-mine of information on Al Qaeda with the capture of Khalid Sheik Mohammed. FBI interrogators extracted a wealth of information from him before the CIA took over and began using "enhanced interrogation techniques". Hereafter EIT will be called by its correct name...torture.

March 2003, the same month Bush invaded Iraq. The same month Khalid Sheik Mohanmmed was water-boarded 183 times. Under this duress, he admitted to everything from the kidnapping of Charles Lindgergh's baby to being the second gunman on the grassy knoll in Dallas. What he did not confess to, however, and what the Bush administration was seeking, was an operational link between Al Qaeda and Iraq.

In April 2003, former UN weapons inspector. Charles Duelfer, received a request to engage in a more aggressive manner, as in water-boarding, with an Iraqi intelligence officer, Muhammed Khudayr, former head of M-14...a branch of Saddam's Mukhabarat...whom he was helping to debrief on Saddam's WMD's. You know the ones that were never there in the first place. According to Mr. Duelfer, this request originated in Washington. This request was problematic in two aspects. First would have been the violation of the Geneva Conventions, as this Iraqi was a lawful combatant. Secondly, this Iraqi intelligence officer was freely co-operating with his interrogators. Saddam was gone and he saw US forces as allies in rebuilding Iraq. Mr. Duelfer put it thus:

“Some in Washington at very senior levels, not in the CIA, were concerned that the debriefing was too gentle. They asked if enhanced measures, such as waterboarding should be used.”

Duelfer found the request "reprehensible" and he and his fellow interrogators refused to comply with this request to commit a war crime. Never mind that the motive behind the request wasn't to acquire intelligence which could be used to stop a further attack on America. It was to obtain information on an operational link between Al Qaeda and Iraq. Never mind that as a uniformed member of Iraqi security services Khudayr WAS subject to ALL provisions of the Geneva Conventions.

According to a report by Robert Windrem, this request for the use of water-boarding Khudayr originated in then Vice-President Dick Cheney's office.

But why this focus on links between Al Qaeda and Iraq? Perhaps the Bush administration, realizing it's WMD rational for the invasion of Iraq was tenuous, at best, they were seeking to back-fill their justification for what was, essentially, an illegal, ill-conceived war of choice against an enemy which was no threat to anyone beyond its borders.

The point to all of this is that the Bush administration's use of water-boarding, and other forms of torture, went beyond even the flimsy legal justifications offered up by the Yoo and Bybee memos. As we see in this memo from John Bybee

Our advice is based upon the following facts, which you have provided to us. We also understand that you do not have any facts in your possession contrary to the facts outlined here, and this opinion is limited to these facts. If these facts were to change, this advice would not necessarily apply...Specifically, he(Abu Zubaydha) is withholding information regarding terrorist networks in the United States or in Saudi Arabia and information regarding plans to conduct attacks within the United States or against our interests overseas...In 1ight of the information you believe Zubaydah has and the high level of threat you believe now exists, your wish to move the interrogations in to what you have described. as an "increased pressure phase."

The upshot is that the Bush administration exceeded even its own tenuous limits on the use of torture. As indicated above, torture was to be used only in the event of a "ticking time-bomb" scenario. The approval of the torture program by the DOJ was dependent upon the need to stop new attacks on the US and its interests. Securing evidence of an operational link between Al Qaeda and Iraq in order to justify the invasion of Iraq did not fall under even that flimsy rationale. The Bush administration tortured detainees, not to obtain intelligence aimed at preventing further attacks on the US, but to back-fill an illegal war of aggression based on a non-existent operational link between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein's Iraq.

And there you have it. The torture of detainees, not to prevent further attacks on the US...Even though not even that is justification for torture. Detainees were tortured to cover the political asses of George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and the rest of the architects of the invasion and botched occupation of Iraq.

Taken as a whole, the continued reluctance of President Obama and Attorney General Holder to pursue the investigation and prosecution of war crimes against the members of the Bush administration who authorized, and those who carried out, torture continues to boggle the mind. Given the evidence that exists, it is clear that an investigation must be undertaken, and the evidence followed wherever...and to whonever...it may lead. US treaty obligations under the UN Conventions Against Torture and the Geneva Convention requires this. Failure to do so is nothing less than complicity in these crimes.
 
In March of 2003, the Bush administration thought it had a gold-mine of information on Al Qaeda with the capture of Khalid Sheik Mohammed. FBI interrogators extracted a wealth of information from him before the CIA took over and began using "enhanced interrogation techniques". Hereafter EIT will be called by its correct name...torture.

March 2003, the same month Bush invaded Iraq. The same month Khalid Sheik Mohanmmed was water-boarded 183 times. Under this duress, he admitted to everything from the kidnapping of Charles Lindgergh's baby to being the second gunman on the grassy knoll in Dallas. What he did not confess to, however, and what the Bush administration was seeking, was an operational link between Al Qaeda and Iraq.

In April 2003, former UN weapons inspector. Charles Duelfer, received a request to engage in a more aggressive manner, as in water-boarding, with an Iraqi intelligence officer, Muhammed Khudayr, former head of M-14...a branch of Saddam's Mukhabarat...whom he was helping to debrief on Saddam's WMD's. You know the ones that were never there in the first place. According to Mr. Duelfer, this request originated in Washington. This request was problematic in two aspects. First would have been the violation of the Geneva Conventions, as this Iraqi was a lawful combatant. Secondly, this Iraqi intelligence officer was freely co-operating with his interrogators. Saddam was gone and he saw US forces as allies in rebuilding Iraq. Mr. Duelfer put it thus:

“Some in Washington at very senior levels, not in the CIA, were concerned that the debriefing was too gentle. They asked if enhanced measures, such as waterboarding should be used.”

Duelfer found the request "reprehensible" and he and his fellow interrogators refused to comply with this request to commit a war crime. Never mind that the motive behind the request wasn't to acquire intelligence which could be used to stop a further attack on America. It was to obtain information on an operational link between Al Qaeda and Iraq. Never mind that as a uniformed member of Iraqi security services Khudayr WAS subject to ALL provisions of the Geneva Conventions.

According to a report by Robert Windrem, this request for the use of water-boarding Khudayr originated in then Vice-President Dick Cheney's office.

But why this focus on links between Al Qaeda and Iraq? Perhaps the Bush administration, realizing it's WMD rational for the invasion of Iraq was tenuous, at best, they were seeking to back-fill their justification for what was, essentially, an illegal, ill-conceived war of choice against an enemy which was no threat to anyone beyond its borders.

The point to all of this is that the Bush administration's use of water-boarding, and other forms of torture, went beyond even the flimsy legal justifications offered up by the Yoo and Bybee memos. As we see in this memo from John Bybee

Our advice is based upon the following facts, which you have provided to us. We also understand that you do not have any facts in your possession contrary to the facts outlined here, and this opinion is limited to these facts. If these facts were to change, this advice would not necessarily apply...Specifically, he(Abu Zubaydha) is withholding information regarding terrorist networks in the United States or in Saudi Arabia and information regarding plans to conduct attacks within the United States or against our interests overseas...In 1ight of the information you believe Zubaydah has and the high level of threat you believe now exists, your wish to move the interrogations in to what you have described. as an "increased pressure phase."

The upshot is that the Bush administration exceeded even its own tenuous limits on the use of torture. As indicated above, torture was to be used only in the event of a "ticking time-bomb" scenario. The approval of the torture program by the DOJ was dependent upon the need to stop new attacks on the US and its interests. Securing evidence of an operational link between Al Qaeda and Iraq in order to justify the invasion of Iraq did not fall under even that flimsy rationale. The Bush administration tortured detainees, not to obtain intelligence aimed at preventing further attacks on the US, but to back-fill an illegal war of aggression based on a non-existent operational link between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein's Iraq.

And there you have it. The torture of detainees, not to prevent further attacks on the US...Even though not even that is justification for torture. Detainees were tortured to cover the political asses of George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and the rest of the architects of the invasion and botched occupation of Iraq.

Taken as a whole, the continued reluctance of President Obama and Attorney General Holder to pursue the investigation and prosecution of war crimes against the members of the Bush administration who authorized, and those who carried out, torture continues to boggle the mind. Given the evidence that exists, it is clear that an investigation must be undertaken, and the evidence followed wherever...and to whonever...it may lead. US treaty obligations under the UN Conventions Against Torture and the Geneva Convention requires this. Failure to do so is nothing less than complicity in these crimes.

Welcome to the Monkey House, Bully. The Obomba administration is an extension of the Bush administration. No change-no hope.
 
Taken as a whole, the continued reluctance of President Obama and Attorney General Holder to pursue the investigation and prosecution of war crimes against the members of the Bush administration who authorized, and those who carried out, torture continues to boggle the mind. Given the evidence that exists, it is clear that an investigation must be undertaken, and the evidence followed wherever...and to whonever...it may lead. US treaty obligations under the UN Conventions Against Torture and the Geneva Convention requires this. Failure to do so is nothing less than complicity in these crimes.

Well..it's something less than complicity, I think.

I suspect that Obama simply does not want to blow up the government tracking down the criminals of the previous administration because he's got way too much on his plate right now.

I'm not saying it's okay, but I am saying I think I understand why it isn't being done.
 
This should be taken up in investigative form by the Congress and Senate. When the criminality has been established, then charges should be brought.
 
Taken as a whole, the continued reluctance of President Obama and Attorney General Holder to pursue the investigation and prosecution of war crimes against the members of the Bush administration who authorized, and those who carried out, torture continues to boggle the mind. Given the evidence that exists, it is clear that an investigation must be undertaken, and the evidence followed wherever...and to whonever...it may lead. US treaty obligations under the UN Conventions Against Torture and the Geneva Convention requires this. Failure to do so is nothing less than complicity in these crimes.

Well..it's something less than complicity, I think.

I suspect that Obama simply does not want to blow up the government tracking down the criminals of the previous administration because he's got way too much on his plate right now.

I'm not saying it's okay, but I am saying I think I understand why it isn't being done.

That's what a special prosecutor is for. Give a special prosecutor the staff and funding he/she needs to follow the evidence...Neither Obama nor Holder need to get their political hands dirty.
 

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