The Economy is in Trouble - What do we do to fix this? Ideas Welcome -

[spectrumc01]

Why are businesses given a free ride on responsibility for the economy? They look at us and tell us we are going to make as much money as we can, wether it benefits the US or not. Yet the people who run these companies are American citizens and have control over wether businesses and jobs stay here in the US. Where is their patriotism? Does the ammount of money you have exempt you from patriotism? How can the owner of a company here in the US say that he loves this country and then run his business to the detriment of the country?

 

[AVG-JOE]

...I believe our government must intervene in the economy, not because the interventions work that well, but because the public as well as business demands that government do something...

--or perhaps change what they're doing. Let's agree that governments and businesses can't exist without each other, and neither should run the other because they've got different and sometimes conflicting priorities.

...If you look at the history of feds manipulations of the money supply and interest rate changes, they have probably been wrong about as often as they have been right...

The Fed is congress' chosen method of fulfilling its constitutional requirement to "coin money and regulate the value thereof". In recent decades the mandate expanded to include full employment. Whether they're "Right" or "Wrong" is a religious question and while I like religion as much as the next guy we need to focus and realize that the Fed's doing a far better job at stable prices and full employment than their predecessor.

Well said. The time has come to end special status acquired via campaign money and well heeled lobbyists.

Let me know when y'all are ready to march on DC to demand a re-build of the unfair tax code and an end to the unfair advantage the mercenary lobbying system bestows on those with the deepest pockets.

 

[Flopper]

LOL, people have always blamed/credited the economy with the government. They even did it way back in ancient Egypt when economics was totally controlled by flood levels of the Nile, and that literally made the Pharaoh a kind of god. The word 'pharaoh' meant 'Big House' just like today we call upon the 'White House' to fix unemployment and global warming.

My take is we have a government only for maintaining an environment that lets us make our own economic life. We need government to coin money, military security, courts for public safety and enforcing contracts. I prefer us making our own 'incentives'.

I believe our government must intervene in the economy, not because the interventions work that well, but because the public as well as business demands that government do something. If you look at the history of feds manipulations of the money supply and interest rate changes, they have probably been wrong about as often as they have been right. Since there are so many factors affecting the economy and the time required for changes to take effect are at best a guess, there is no good way to measure the effect in terms of jobs and production. Increasing government spending to put more money in the hands of consumers is every bit as unreliable as fed policies.

No doubt fed actions and the increased government spending of the Obama administration has had some positive effects on the economy but was it worth the resulting deficit that the country will have to resolve. I guess economists will be arguing about this forever.

The government needs to intervene because enough people, when given the choice between considering themselves and considering the public, choose themselves.

Somebody has to say "No, you can't strip mine that valley even if you do have title to the land - it'll fuck things up for the folks down stream."

Once we finish the civil war and get back to being an organization of independent states with a political relationship based on the original vision of the founders, America is going to lead humanity to the stars.

First stop is the moon, according to Huggy.

Choosing yourself over the public is just human nature and that’s not going to change. I do believe the intervention by fed and government in 2008 and 2009 was the right thing to do. My objection is constant fine-tuning by the fed.

I certain don’t agree that we need to return to a loose confederation of states for mutual defense. The 75-year period following the revolution was pretty pitiful economically. It took 75 years for personal income to double. After the civil war GDP doubled in 36 years. By 1947 GDP was able to double in 26 years. By 1982 GDP doubled in 10 years. Things may not be so rosy now, but I certainly would not want to return to 1776.

 

[KissMy]

Why are businesses given a free ride on responsibility for the economy? They look at us and tell us we are going to make as much money as we can, wether it benefits the US or not. Yet the people who run these companies are American citizens and have control over wether businesses and jobs stay here in the US. Where is their patriotism? Does the ammount of money you have exempt you from patriotism? How can the owner of a company here in the US say that he loves this country and then run his business to the detriment of the country?

If you run a business & use US labor, pay benefits & abide by US EPA regs, BOCA code, taxes etc. The price of your item will have to be priced higher than the foreign item. Your product will not sell because everyone will buy the cheaper one & you will be put out of business. Everyone will loose their jobs including you. Unemployment will rise, the investors will lose their investment & markets will drop.

You must compete or get destroyed.

 

[Flopper]

Doom and Gloom... Conceding doom should mean gloom. If we do not believe the economic disaster will continue till we are too weak to do anything about it and are truly beat down to a whimpering mass of third world morons then we will not have the will to act to mitigate the trend and rise up and above it.

We will not avert the inevitable fall from world grace and mass poverty by nickle and dime-ing our way out of the chasm.

What we DO need is a game changer. What we need is to look at what would work for us as the median income in declining. What will do that is a substantially lower cost of just being an average American.

We need a serious game changer like the discovery of oil as an energy source and the invention of the automobile to make use of it by the common man.

What we need is a new cheap energy source. If we can develop the means to contain the temperatures to fuse HELIUM 3 we are home free. We already know that there is plenty of it on and just below the surface of the moon. One Space Shuttle bay compartment full of that material would power all of the United States energy requirements for a year. The stuff is easy to mine. It is just laying in the sand and dust on the moon's surface.

If all of our energy needs could be lowered to just the cost of maintaining our infrastructure we could still live at our present levels.

Think of it like going to your Walmart for electricity.

I respectfully disagree. Some kind of technological game changer would be great, and I suspect it's going to happen sooner or later. But we have to change our mindset for social and fiscal responsibility. We have to be smarter and more efficient with our money, both personal and public, we waste way too much. We have to change our education and training systems, throwing money at 'em hasn't worked. We've got to do better at resolving issues to everyone's benefit rather than a select few. Until that happens we're just kind of wallowing around in our own shit.

Recovery from all major recessions share one thing in common. We look for a great epiphany, but what we get most often is a series of small changes that gradually restore confidence which is at the heart of all economic recoveries.

If economic recovery depended on changing the function the of government and how it operates, we would still be trying to recover from the first recession.

 

[spectrumc01]

Why are businesses given a free ride on responsibility for the economy? They look at us and tell us we are going to make as much money as we can, wether it benefits the US or not. Yet the people who run these companies are American citizens and have control over wether businesses and jobs stay here in the US. Where is their patriotism? Does the ammount of money you have exempt you from patriotism? How can the owner of a company here in the US say that he loves this country and then run his business to the detriment of the country?

If you run a business & use US labor, pay benefits & abide by US EPA regs, BOCA code, taxes etc. The price of your item will have to be priced higher than the foreign item. Your product will not sell because everyone will buy the cheaper one & you will be put out of business. Everyone will loose their jobs including you. Unemployment will rise, the investors will lose their investment & markets will drop.

You must compete or get destroyed.

If you are correct, then what you are telling me is the Government on both sides of the isle is out to destroy American business, big and small. Government is out to slant the playing field in favor of foriegn competitors. The only way any business can compete in the US against foriegners is to pay sub living wages, destroy are environment, be exempt from paying taxes, and provide no benefits. If this is done then perhaps employment will go up, and investors will make more money and the markets will rise.

We must live like a third world country in order to not be destroyed.

The only examples of this are in the Arab countries, and southern Aisian countries, and Africa. The Arab population is in revolt against their oppressive governments, the Africans are in Civil war trying to avoid extinction by their government, and the Asian countries are mostly communistic totalitarian governments.

Is this where you feel the US needs to be in order to compete? being we are already the richest nation in the world.

 

[AVG-JOE]

...we have a government only for maintaining an environment that lets us make our own economic life.

...Somebody has to say "No, you can't strip mine that valley even if you do have title to the land - it'll fuck things up for the folks down stream."...

So we agree but use different words.

On a lot of stuff, yes, Sir... we do. One more reason for faith in the concept behind 'America'.

 

[AVG-JOE]

The way I see it, Evolution uses things like greed, government and religion as tools to create a functioning Sentient World. When these tools become more of a hindrance than a help, Evolution will tone down their influence. Compare those three tools, as used today, to their use even just 200 years ago. How about 500 years ago? 3,000 years ago? The pattern is easy to see if you look for it.

All of the stepping stones carved out for us using these tools, from the Roman society based on water power to the current society based on hydrocarbon power to the future society based on solar power, prove that the system works. It's ugly at times, but it works. Greed, Religion and Government aren't the goals of Evolution, just a couple of the tools it uses to birth a Sentient World from a random wet rock falling around a common star. Mother Earth is ready to pop and some of us may still be young enough to see the birth. It's a good time to be alive.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Doom and Gloom... Conceding doom should mean gloom. If we do not believe the economic disaster will continue till we are too weak to do anything about it and are truly beat down to a whimpering mass of third world morons then we will not have the will to act to mitigate the trend and rise up and above it.

We will not avert the inevitable fall from world grace and mass poverty by nickle and dime-ing our way out of the chasm.

What we DO need is a game changer. What we need is to look at what would work for us as the median income in declining. What will do that is a substantially lower cost of just being an average American.

We need a serious game changer like the discovery of oil as an energy source and the invention of the automobile to make use of it by the common man.

What we need is a new cheap energy source. If we can develop the means to contain the temperatures to fuse HELIUM 3 we are home free. We already know that there is plenty of it on and just below the surface of the moon. One Space Shuttle bay compartment full of that material would power all of the United States energy requirements for a year. The stuff is easy to mine. It is just laying in the sand and dust on the moon's surface.

If all of our energy needs could be lowered to just the cost of maintaining our infrastructure we could still live at our present levels.

Think of it like going to your Walmart for electricity.

I respectfully disagree. Some kind of technological game changer would be great, and I suspect it's going to happen sooner or later. But we have to change our mindset for social and fiscal responsibility. We have to be smarter and more efficient with our money, both personal and public, we waste way too much. We have to change our education and training systems, throwing money at 'em hasn't worked. We've got to do better at resolving issues to everyone's benefit rather than a select few. Until that happens we're just kind of wallowing around in our own shit.

Education is the key. The sooner the shift is made to local control the better. Who knows better what the educational needs of Florida, with its care of the aging; the educational needs of Texas, with its agricultural and energy resources, and the educational needs of Washington with its computer stuff are than the people of Florida, Texas and Washington respectively?

When we arrange our politics so folks are more likely to know the comings and goings of their local school board members than the POTUS, we'll be on our way.

A national education policy that micro manages local education is a stupid idea.

 

[AVG-JOE]

This thread is being set up for a PRODUCTIVE discussion on what we can do as American citizens to help our own economy. If we expect Washington to stop the reckless spending then maybe we should also practice what we preach and stop the reckless spending in our own lives. After speaking to a few industry leaders - I am on a quest to find solutions to help recirculate American cash in local communities without changing the average American's lifestyle. I do not pretend to have all the answers and welcome productive banter. I am at the point right now believing that the most effective solution is shopping local and buying more American products until the international trade balances itself out. And yes - I do know that this task of figuring it out and spreading awareness is huge - but isn't that what we are all here for?
So Shop Local, Buy American = More $$$ and More USA Jobs = More Evenly Spread Taxes because more People with jobs to pay taxes & more businesses to pay taxes = lower deficit - Right?

The first obstacle is ideology. There are those who are capitalists and are all about making a buck for themselves. There is nothing wrong with this thinking. The problem is the results of such thinking, outsourcing of jobs and industry and onesided free trade.

The next obstacle would be government. Our government is run by global companies started here in the US. They want all of the benefits of opperating in the US combined with all of the benefits of lower costs by operating out of the US. It's time they start paying for their benefits.

The obstacle that needs to be removed is the:

Capitalists who feel the need to run the government,
Socialists who feel the need to run the government,
Environmentalists who feel the need to run the government,
Religious Sects who feel the need to run the government,
Etc. who feel the need to run the government...​

Mix all those voices together in the spirit of promoting productivity while protecting the future, and you'll find yourself looking at the documents of pre Civil War America.

 

[AVG-JOE]

I believe our government must intervene in the economy, not because the interventions work that well, but because the public as well as business demands that government do something. If you look at the history of feds manipulations of the money supply and interest rate changes, they have probably been wrong about as often as they have been right. Since there are so many factors affecting the economy and the time required for changes to take effect are at best a guess, there is no good way to measure the effect in terms of jobs and production. Increasing government spending to put more money in the hands of consumers is every bit as unreliable as fed policies.

No doubt fed actions and the increased government spending of the Obama administration has had some positive effects on the economy but was it worth the resulting deficit that the country will have to resolve. I guess economists will be arguing about this forever.

The government needs to intervene because enough people, when given the choice between considering themselves and considering the public, choose themselves.

Somebody has to say "No, you can't strip mine that valley even if you do have title to the land - it'll fuck things up for the folks down stream."

Once we finish the civil war and get back to being an organization of independent states with a political relationship based on the original vision of the founders, America is going to lead humanity to the stars.

First stop is the moon, according to Huggy.

Choosing yourself over the public is just human nature and that’s not going to change. I do believe the intervention by fed and government in 2008 and 2009 was the right thing to do. My objection is constant fine-tuning by the fed.

I certain don’t agree that we need to return to a loose confederation of states for mutual defense. The 75-year period following the revolution was pretty pitiful economically. It took 75 years for personal income to double. After the civil war GDP doubled in 36 years. By 1947 GDP was able to double in 26 years. By 1982 GDP doubled in 10 years. Things may not be so rosy now, but I certainly would not want to return to 1776.

True, but raw GDP numbers don't describe how that growth is distributed. If GDP doubles but all of the wealth created by that growth is in the hands of 10% of the population, is the country better off?

I certainly don't advocate taking wealth from hard-working Bobby and simply handing it to unskilled Billy who can't seem to find a job, but if Bobby was smart, he'd use some of his wealth to educate Bobby, if for no other reason than to keep him off of welfare and out of prison, both of which will cost more in the long run.

Bobby would also be smart to avoid using his political influence to keep Billy from competing with him. That happens a LOT in society today.

 

[ALocalWay]

Is it possible for the middle and lower class Americans to understand the situation at hand and become "socially and fiscally responsible"? Is there a way to get the importance of the message across and inspire the public to take control of their lives? Can this generation of Americans become a more disciplined society and do what it is going to take to regain their voice?
Does the majority of our country even know what is going on or are they too busy trying to make ends meet to care?
How do we get people to understand and care - where do we as concerned citizens get involved? Writing our reps and elected leaders does not seem a promising use of time. I call leaders of political organizations and I get the polite "thanks you for your concern" and that's it.
Where do I start? I cannot sit down and let things go down further without a fight.

 

[Wiseacre]

Is it possible for the middle and lower class Americans to understand the situation at hand and become "socially and fiscally responsible"? Is there a way to get the importance of the message across and inspire the public to take control of their lives? Can this generation of Americans become a more disciplined society and do what it is going to take to regain their voice?
Does the majority of our country even know what is going on or are they too busy trying to make ends meet to care?
How do we get people to understand and care - where do we as concerned citizens get involved? Writing our reps and elected leaders does not seem a promising use of time. I call leaders of political organizations and I get the polite "thanks you for your concern" and that's it.
Where do I start? I cannot sit down and let things go down further without a fight.

Mankind is not good at being proactive, especially if it costs them money or requires significant effort. I'm just not seeing it, it looks to me like we need an economic collapse such as a major depression to convince people that significant changes must be made.

 

[expat_panama]

...Mankind is not good at being proactive, especially if it costs them money or requires significant effort...

We hear that kind of talk all the time and yet for thousands of years humankind has raised forth an ever advancing civilization. Say what you want but there's no arguing with success.

 

[ALocalWay]

Is it possible for the middle and lower class Americans to understand the situation at hand and become "socially and fiscally responsible"? Is there a way to get the importance of the message across and inspire the public to take control of their lives? Can this generation of Americans become a more disciplined society and do what it is going to take to regain their voice?
Does the majority of our country even know what is going on or are they too busy trying to make ends meet to care?
How do we get people to understand and care - where do we as concerned citizens get involved? Writing our reps and elected leaders does not seem a promising use of time. I call leaders of political organizations and I get the polite "thanks you for your concern" and that's it.
Where do I start? I cannot sit down and let things go down further without a fight.

Mankind is not good at being proactive, especially if it costs them money or requires significant effort. I'm just not seeing it, it looks to me like we need an economic collapse such as a major depression to convince people that significant changes must be made.

It is the opinion of just about everyone that the American people will not step up to the plate until it is too late - and maybe not even then. Maybe if a different approach is taken when it comes to developing a more responsible population. Something has to be able to touch a nerve with the masses.
The average American is sitting infront of their TV right now watching a ball game and choking down a Big Mac - while donkeys and elephants continue to trample down democracy. Something needs to happen soon - If the population is as lazy and selfish as it is believed then how well would they survive in a major depression?

 

[Wiseacre]

Is it possible for the middle and lower class Americans to understand the situation at hand and become "socially and fiscally responsible"? Is there a way to get the importance of the message across and inspire the public to take control of their lives? Can this generation of Americans become a more disciplined society and do what it is going to take to regain their voice?
Does the majority of our country even know what is going on or are they too busy trying to make ends meet to care?
How do we get people to understand and care - where do we as concerned citizens get involved? Writing our reps and elected leaders does not seem a promising use of time. I call leaders of political organizations and I get the polite "thanks you for your concern" and that's it.
Where do I start? I cannot sit down and let things go down further without a fight.

Mankind is not good at being proactive, especially if it costs them money or requires significant effort. I'm just not seeing it, it looks to me like we need an economic collapse such as a major depression to convince people that significant changes must be made.

It is the opinion of just about everyone that the American people will not step up to the plate until it is too late - and maybe not even then. Maybe if a different approach is taken when it comes to developing a more responsible population. Something has to be able to touch a nerve with the masses.
The average American is sitting infront of their TV right now watching a ball game and choking down a Big Mac - while donkeys and elephants continue to trample down democracy. Something needs to happen soon - If the population is as lazy and selfish as it is believed then how well would they survive in a major depression?

When push comes to shove, you'd be surprised what people can do, both good and bad. With a different mindset and better leadership, we can still do great things. That's not a hit at Obama and the Dems, the GOP is also part of the problem.

 

[Flopper]

The government needs to intervene because enough people, when given the choice between considering themselves and considering the public, choose themselves.

Somebody has to say "No, you can't strip mine that valley even if you do have title to the land - it'll fuck things up for the folks down stream."

Once we finish the civil war and get back to being an organization of independent states with a political relationship based on the original vision of the founders, America is going to lead humanity to the stars.

First stop is the moon, according to Huggy.

Choosing yourself over the public is just human nature and that’s not going to change. I do believe the intervention by fed and government in 2008 and 2009 was the right thing to do. My objection is constant fine-tuning by the fed.

I certain don’t agree that we need to return to a loose confederation of states for mutual defense. The 75-year period following the revolution was pretty pitiful economically. It took 75 years for personal income to double. After the civil war GDP doubled in 36 years. By 1947 GDP was able to double in 26 years. By 1982 GDP doubled in 10 years. Things may not be so rosy now, but I certainly would not want to return to 1776.

True, but raw GDP numbers don't describe how that growth is distributed. If GDP doubles but all of the wealth created by that growth is in the hands of 10% of the population, is the country better off?

I certainly don't advocate taking wealth from hard-working Bobby and simply handing it to unskilled Billy who can't seem to find a job, but if Bobby was smart, he'd use some of his wealth to educate Bobby, if for no other reason than to keep him off of welfare and out of prison, both of which will cost more in the long run.

Bobby would also be smart to avoid using his political influence to keep Billy from competing with him. That happens a LOT in society today.

My point is that the relatively weak federal government which existed after the founding of the nation did not lead to great economic property in following 75 years. It was only after the civil war that economic growth really took off, increasing in speed as both the nation and the government grew.

 

[expat_panama]

...the opinion of just about everyone that the American people will not step up to the plate until it is too late - and maybe not even then...

Doom'n'gloomers and America-bashers are not only wrong but they do a lot of harm. One of the major causes of the second world war was the perception by foreign despots that Americans were decadent, lazy, and lacked the will to respond.

 

[expat_panama]

...the relatively weak federal government which existed after the founding of the nation did not lead to great economic property in following 75 years. It was only after the civil war that economic growth really took off, increasing in speed as both the nation and the government grew.

There are a lot of ways to actually measure historic economic wealth and crank out a data set, here's one right here that shows--

--over all growth about the same before and after the Civil War.

 

[Nemo]

What is needed is to curb undisclosed speculation on the financial markets and provide more transparency to commercial transactions. The problem with regulating banking and the stock market can be easily solved with a single piece of legislation. Congress should repeal the safe-harbor provisions of title 11 that exempt financial derivative contracts from bankruptcy. (Derivatives are really secret liens that conceal leveraged borrowing carried “off balance sheet” - this was the lesson learned from the Lehman Brothers bankruptcy, and why AIG was “too big to fail” necessitating the government “bail-out.”) Without that exemption for “anonymous creditors” the market will be forced to regulate itself. It’s really that simple.