The DNC trogan Horse the the GOP

[Bfgrn]

It's really funny to watch you mindless little puppets mimicking the marching orders of your leaders.

Frum had to be jettisoned because he told the fucking TRUTH. Now you ignorant little puppets MUST dismember anyone your handlers deem not marching in goose step.

David Frum...Waterloo

At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: we would make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing. We were going for all the marbles. This would be Obama’s Waterloo – just as healthcare was Clinton’s in 1994.

This time, when we went for all the marbles, we ended with none.

Could a deal have been reached? Who knows? But we do know that the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big. The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romney’s Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994.

Again? *I* Restate...

You hold up FRUM as credible? How dense are you really?

Anyone who claims to be a republican and supports obamacare does not understand the flaws in that type of system or they're lying.

David Frum and Bruce Bartlett are Republicans, not RINO's. And they had the courage to put the country and the American people first, not the party like the Republicans did during the healthcare debate.

Frum:

"But we do know that the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big. The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romney’s Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994."

Bartlett:

Since, he is no longer affiliated with AEI, I feel free to say publicly something he told me in private a few months ago. He asked if I had noticed any comments by AEI "scholars" on the subject of health care reform. I said no and he said that was because they had been ordered not to speak to the media because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Again? *I* Restate...

You hold up FRUM as credible? How dense are you really?

Anyone who claims to be a republican and supports obamacare does not understand the flaws in that type of system or they're lying.

David Frum and Bruce Bartlett are Republicans, not RINO's. And they had the courage to put the country and the American people first, not the party like the Republicans did during the healthcare debate.

Frum:

"But we do know that the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big. The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romney’s Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994."

Bartlett:

Since, he is no longer affiliated with AEI, I feel free to say publicly something he told me in private a few months ago. He asked if I had noticed any comments by AEI "scholars" on the subject of health care reform. I said no and he said that was because they had been ordered not to speak to the media because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do.

I really don't care who you Identify as conservative. If they support obamacare they are a fucking liberal.

 

[Greenbeard]

I really don't care who you Identify as conservative. If they support obamacare they are a fucking liberal.

Which ideas in it are the mark of liberalism? Does supporting state-based insurance exchanges make one a liberal? How about offering refundable, advanceable tax credits to help folks buy health insurance? What about supporting the formation of accountable care organizations among Medicare providers? Or federal research into health care delivery or the effectiveness of medical treatments?

Can one support these ideas--core pieces of the ACA--and still be a conservative?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I really don't care who you Identify as conservative. If they support obamacare they are a fucking liberal.

Which ideas in it are the mark of liberalism? Does supporting state-based insurance exchanges make one a liberal? How about offering refundable, advanceable tax credits to help folks buy health insurance? What about supporting the formation of accountable care organizations among Medicare providers? Or federal research into health care delivery or the effectiveness of medical treatments?

Can one support these ideas--core pieces of the ACA--and still be a conservative?

ONE FUCKING MORE TIME ifyou support obamacare you are not a conservative.

 

[Greenbeard]

I really don't care who you Identify as conservative. If they support obamacare they are a fucking liberal.

Which ideas in it are the mark of liberalism? Does supporting state-based insurance exchanges make one a liberal? How about offering refundable, advanceable tax credits to help folks buy health insurance? What about supporting the formation of accountable care organizations among Medicare providers? Or federal research into health care delivery or the effectiveness of medical treatments?

Can one support these ideas--core pieces of the ACA--and still be a conservative?

ONE FUCKING MORE TIME ifyou support obamacare you are not a conservative.

I'll take that as a "yes" to my question. Conservatives are perfectly able to support the primary components of Obama's reforms law (state-based exchanges, tax credits for buying insurance, comparative effectiveness research, accountable care incentives), they're just not allowed to support the word "ObamaCare."

On the substance, there's no problem for a conservative to support key components of the ACA. It's merely a stylistic thing--make sure not to claim support for "ObamaCare." Given that this, this absurd game, seems to be the construct you're working under, all that really needs to be said is:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6cxNR9ML8k]Lighten up, Francis[/ame]

 

[Bfgrn]

Anyone who claims to be a republican and supports obamacare does not understand the flaws in that type of system or they're lying.

David Frum and Bruce Bartlett are Republicans, not RINO's. And they had the courage to put the country and the American people first, not the party like the Republicans did during the healthcare debate.

Frum:

"But we do know that the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big. The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romney’s Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994."

Bartlett:

Since, he is no longer affiliated with AEI, I feel free to say publicly something he told me in private a few months ago. He asked if I had noticed any comments by AEI "scholars" on the subject of health care reform. I said no and he said that was because they had been ordered not to speak to the media because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do.

I really don't care who you Identify as conservative. If they support obamacare they are a fucking liberal.

Well, we have the TRUTH and the contrived propaganda you believe. How much of the truth do you want? All at once or a little at a time?

The Affordable Healthcare Act is almost a carbon copy of the Republican proposal back in 1993, including THE major Republican idea. The Individual Mandate.

 

[Provocateur]

David Frum and Bruce Bartlett are Republicans, not RINO's. And they had the courage to put the country and the American people first, not the party like the Republicans did during the healthcare debate.

Frum:

"But we do know that the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big. The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romney’s Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994."

Bartlett:

Since, he is no longer affiliated with AEI, I feel free to say publicly something he told me in private a few months ago. He asked if I had noticed any comments by AEI "scholars" on the subject of health care reform. I said no and he said that was because they had been ordered not to speak to the media because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do.

I really don't care who you Identify as conservative. If they support obamacare they are a fucking liberal.

Well, we have the TRUTH and the contrived propaganda you believe. How much of the truth do you want? All at once or a little at a time?

The Affordable Healthcare Act is almost a carbon copy of the Republican proposal back in 1993, including THE major Republican idea. The Individual Mandate.

1993. Seems like just yesterday when cooler heads prevailed and it went nowhere.

And, seriously, stop with the Romenycare comparison. He implemented what the people of his state wanted. It was a pile of shit, but he did his duty to the people that elected him.

Are you going to say how successful Romneycare has been? Is that the pillar of excellence by which you are measuring Obamacare?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Which ideas in it are the mark of liberalism? Does supporting state-based insurance exchanges make one a liberal? How about offering refundable, advanceable tax credits to help folks buy health insurance? What about supporting the formation of accountable care organizations among Medicare providers? Or federal research into health care delivery or the effectiveness of medical treatments?

Can one support these ideas--core pieces of the ACA--and still be a conservative?

ONE FUCKING MORE TIME ifyou support obamacare you are not a conservative.

I'll take that as a "yes" to my question. Conservatives are perfectly able to support the primary components of Obama's reforms law (state-based exchanges, tax credits for buying insurance, comparative effectiveness research, accountable care incentives), they're just not allowed to support the word "ObamaCare."

On the substance, there's no problem for a conservative to support key components of the ACA. It's merely a stylistic thing--make sure not to claim support for "ObamaCare." Given that this, this absurd game, seems to be the construct you're working under, all that really needs to be said is:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6cxNR9ML8k]Lighten up, Francis[/ame]

You can pull the assume out of your ass, no conservative will support obamacare.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

David Frum and Bruce Bartlett are Republicans, not RINO's. And they had the courage to put the country and the American people first, not the party like the Republicans did during the healthcare debate.

Frum:

"But we do know that the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big. The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romney’s Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994."

Bartlett:

Since, he is no longer affiliated with AEI, I feel free to say publicly something he told me in private a few months ago. He asked if I had noticed any comments by AEI "scholars" on the subject of health care reform. I said no and he said that was because they had been ordered not to speak to the media because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do.

I really don't care who you Identify as conservative. If they support obamacare they are a fucking liberal.

Well, we have the TRUTH and the contrived propaganda you believe. How much of the truth do you want? All at once or a little at a time?

The Affordable Healthcare Act is almost a carbon copy of the Republican proposal back in 1993, including THE major Republican idea. The Individual Mandate.

Did it pass in 1993?

 

[Greenbeard]

You can pull the assume out of your ass, no conservative will support obamacare.

Sure, I accept that this is a political imperative for those guys; names are everything.

However, it seems clear a conservative can support some of the key policy components of the ACA (again: state-based exchanges, tax credits for buying insurance, comparative effectiveness research, accountable care incentives), they just have to call it something else. Let's say, "RyanCare." That should make it popular among the base.

That way folks like you are happy (RyanCare! you guys love Paul Ryan!) and folks like me are happy because "a rose by any other name...". Compromise!

 

[Bfgrn]

I really don't care who you Identify as conservative. If they support obamacare they are a fucking liberal.

Well, we have the TRUTH and the contrived propaganda you believe. How much of the truth do you want? All at once or a little at a time?

The Affordable Healthcare Act is almost a carbon copy of the Republican proposal back in 1993, including THE major Republican idea. The Individual Mandate.

1993. Seems like just yesterday when cooler heads prevailed and it went nowhere.

And, seriously, stop with the Romenycare comparison. He implemented what the people of his state wanted. It was a pile of shit, but he did his duty to the people that elected him.

Are you going to say how successful Romneycare has been? Is that the pillar of excellence by which you are measuring Obamacare?

Chart: Comparing Health Reform Bills: Democrats and Republicans 2009, Republicans 1993

The Democrats' 2010 Health Reform Plan Evokes 1993 Republican Bill

Former Sen. Dave Durenberger, R-Minn

In 1993, at the height of President Bill Clinton's health care reform initiative, Sen. John Chafee, R-R.I., along with 19 other Republicans and two Democrats, put forth a bill which was considered the major GOP proposal. One of the co-sponsors was then-Sen. Dave Durenberger, R-Minn. The bill, just like the Democratic version, never passed. But in a sense, it's been revived this year.

In fact, the key provisions in the Chafee bill may seem familiar, as they bear a strong resemblance to those in the current Democratic Senate bill, and now in President Barack Obama's proposal. A mandate that individuals buy insurance, subsidies for the poor to buy insurance and the requirement that insurers offer a standard benefits package and refrain from discriminating based on pre-existing conditions were all in the 1993 GOP bill.

Durenberger says the reason many of these ideas have been shunned by today's Republicans, even called unconstitutional by some, is that political times have changed. “The main thing that’s changed is the definition of a Republican,” he said.

More


Individual Mandate - a Republican Idea

Republican support for the individual mandate policy goes back further than this health care reform discussion. Earlier this month, Julie Rovner profiled a history of the policy dating back to the 1980′s

In fact, says Len Nichols of the New America Foundation, the individual mandate was originally a Republican idea. “It was invented by Mark Pauly to give to George Bush Sr. back in the day, as a competition to the employer mandate focus of the Democrats at the time.”…

“We called this responsible national health insurance,” says Pauly. “There was a kind of an ethical and moral support for the notion that people shouldn’t be allowed to free-ride on the charity of fellow citizens.”

The policy was originally included in many Republican proposals including the proposals during the Clinton administration. The leading GOP alternative plan known as the 1994 Consumer Choice Health Security Act included the requirement to purchase insurance. Further, this proposal was based off of a 1990 Heritage Foundation proposal outlined a quality health system where “government would require, by law every head of household to acquire at least a basic health plan for his or her family.”

The Thirty Year History Of Republicans Supporting the Individual Mandate

 

[Provocateur]

You can pull the assume out of your ass, no conservative will support obamacare.

Sure, I accept that this is a political imperative for those guys; names are everything.

However, it seems clear a conservative can support some of the key policy components of the ACA (again: state-based exchanges, tax credits for buying insurance, comparative effectiveness research, accountable care incentives), they just have to call it something else. Let's say, "RyanCare." That should make it popular among the base.

That way folks like you are happy (RyanCare! you guys love Paul Ryan!) and folks like me are happy because "a rose by any other name...". Compromise!

Contrary to what liberals believe, conservatives are supportive of reform. You have left off some key elements of what should be implemented as part of that reform, but I am too lazy to rehash the same old debate on a Sunday.

I guarantee you, the reform needed doesn't take 2500 pages to implement.


It was a simple power grab for a huge chunk of the pie.


How anyone thinks that the GOVERNMENT running health insurance is a good idea is beyond me. They are not exactly...efficient, which is something one might desire in considering their health care needs.

 

[Provocateur]

Still living in 1993, huh?

 

[Greenbeard]

Contrary to what liberals believe, conservatives are supportive of reform. You have left off some key elements of what should be implemented as part of that reform, but I am too lazy to rehash the same old debate on a Sunday.

I know they are. That's why I'm specifically focusing here on key policy pieces of the ACA--state-based exchanges, tax credits for buying insurance, comparative effectiveness research, accountable care incentives--that Paul Ryan included in his own comprehensive health reform proposal.

Surely Paul Ryan is a conservative, ergo a conservative can support a significant chunk of the ACA. We're bridging the gap here. The key is just to associate it with Ryan's name instead of Obama's because that's apparently the thing that will bring conservative around to supporting these concepts.

 

[Provocateur]

Contrary to what liberals believe, conservatives are supportive of reform. You have left off some key elements of what should be implemented as part of that reform, but I am too lazy to rehash the same old debate on a Sunday.

I know they are. That's why I'm specifically focusing here on key policy pieces of the ACA--state-based exchanges, tax credits for buying insurance, comparative effectiveness research, accountable care incentives--that Paul Ryan included in his own comprehensive health reform proposal.

Surely Paul Ryan is a conservative, ergo a conservative can support a significant chunk of the ACA. We're bridging the gap here. The key is just to associate it with Ryan's name instead of Obama's because that's apparently the thing that will bring conservative around to supporting these concepts.

There is really no bridge for the canyon that the Democrats created by overreaching.

There are good ideas in the bill as well as other items that should also be implemented.

But when something is 1% good, and 99% power grab, it is time to start over.


The Republicans blew it by not addressing these issues when they had a chance.

 

[Bfgrn]

Contrary to what liberals believe, conservatives are supportive of reform. You have left off some key elements of what should be implemented as part of that reform, but I am too lazy to rehash the same old debate on a Sunday.

I know they are. That's why I'm specifically focusing here on key policy pieces of the ACA--state-based exchanges, tax credits for buying insurance, comparative effectiveness research, accountable care incentives--that Paul Ryan included in his own comprehensive health reform proposal.

Surely Paul Ryan is a conservative, ergo a conservative can support a significant chunk of the ACA. We're bridging the gap here. The key is just to associate it with Ryan's name instead of Obama's because that's apparently the thing that will bring conservative around to supporting these concepts.

There is really no bridge for the canyon that the Democrats created by overreaching.

There are good ideas in the bill as well as other items that should also be implemented.

But when something is 1% good, and 99% power grab, it is time to start over.


The Republicans blew it by not addressing these issues when they had a chance.

The bill Democrats passed IS a carbon copy of the 1993 Republican plan. Why don't you READ the comparison. There was no overreach, no government takeover of health care, no death panels. Those were all lies by Republicans who made a decision that party and defeating Obama was more important that health care reform or the American people. They all parroted a Frank Luntz memo designed to make them sound like they were for reform, while undermining it and trying to scare people with LIES.

 

[Provocateur]

I know they are. That's why I'm specifically focusing here on key policy pieces of the ACA--state-based exchanges, tax credits for buying insurance, comparative effectiveness research, accountable care incentives--that Paul Ryan included in his own comprehensive health reform proposal.

Surely Paul Ryan is a conservative, ergo a conservative can support a significant chunk of the ACA. We're bridging the gap here. The key is just to associate it with Ryan's name instead of Obama's because that's apparently the thing that will bring conservative around to supporting these concepts.

There is really no bridge for the canyon that the Democrats created by overreaching.

There are good ideas in the bill as well as other items that should also be implemented.

But when something is 1% good, and 99% power grab, it is time to start over.


The Republicans blew it by not addressing these issues when they had a chance.

The bill Democrats passed IS a carbon copy of the 1993 Republican plan. Why don't you READ the comparison. There was no overreach, no government takeover of health care, no death panels. Those were all lies by Republicans who made a decision that party and defeating Obama was more important that health care reform or the American people. They all parroted a Frank Luntz memo designed to make them sound like they were for reform, while undermining it and trying to scare people with LIES.

Obamacare is toxic. I don't care if it parallels ideas put forth by Republican 20 years ago. Different times. Different level of understanding by most of us that see why they were going that direction.

Reagan talked about socialize medicine and its dangers.

Here, from 1961.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs]YouTube - ‪Ronald Reagan Speaks Out Against Socialized Medicine‬‏[/ame]

 

[Bfgrn]

There is really no bridge for the canyon that the Democrats created by overreaching.

There are good ideas in the bill as well as other items that should also be implemented.

But when something is 1% good, and 99% power grab, it is time to start over.


The Republicans blew it by not addressing these issues when they had a chance.

The bill Democrats passed IS a carbon copy of the 1993 Republican plan. Why don't you READ the comparison. There was no overreach, no government takeover of health care, no death panels. Those were all lies by Republicans who made a decision that party and defeating Obama was more important that health care reform or the American people. They all parroted a Frank Luntz memo designed to make them sound like they were for reform, while undermining it and trying to scare people with LIES.

Obamacare is toxic. I don't care if it parallels ideas put forth by Republican 20 years ago. Different times. Different level of understanding by most of us that see why they were going that direction.

Reagan talked about socialize medicine and its dangers.

Here, from 1961.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs]YouTube - ‪Ronald Reagan Speaks Out Against Socialized Medicine‬‏[/ame]

SO...Republicans 20 years ago were socialists? WOW!!!!!!!!!

If anyone should be disappointed with the Affordable Healthcare Act, it is liberals and progressives, not conservatives. EVERYTHING Republicans said and did during the debate was never intended to be constructive. It was intended to be destructive. IMO, it was an act of domestic terrorism.

And AGAIN...the Affordable Healthcare Act is NOT government takeover of health care. It is NOT socialized medicine, it is 99% Republican ideas and 1% progressive ideas.

 

[Provocateur]

The bill Democrats passed IS a carbon copy of the 1993 Republican plan. Why don't you READ the comparison. There was no overreach, no government takeover of health care, no death panels. Those were all lies by Republicans who made a decision that party and defeating Obama was more important that health care reform or the American people. They all parroted a Frank Luntz memo designed to make them sound like they were for reform, while undermining it and trying to scare people with LIES.

Obamacare is toxic. I don't care if it parallels ideas put forth by Republican 20 years ago. Different times. Different level of understanding by most of us that see why they were going that direction.

Reagan talked about socialize medicine and its dangers.

Here, from 1961.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs]YouTube - ‪Ronald Reagan Speaks Out Against Socialized Medicine‬‏[/ame]

SO...Republicans 20 years ago were socialists? WOW!!!!!!!!!

If anyone should be disappointed with the Affordable Healthcare Act, it is liberals and progressives, not conservatives. EVERYTHING Republicans said and did during the debate was never intended to be constructive. It was intended to be destructive. IMO, it was an act of domestic terrorism.

And AGAIN...the Affordable Healthcare Act is NOT government takeover of health care. It is NOT socialized medicine, it is 99% Republican ideas and 1% progressive ideas.

A foot-in-the-door power grab.

You're a fool if you don't see that.

 

[Greenbeard]

Obamacare is toxic. I don't care if it parallels ideas put forth by Republican 20 years ago. Different times. Different level of understanding by most of us that see why they were going that direction.

Reagan talked about socialize medicine and its dangers.

Again, you're hiding behind a label ("ObamaCare"). What, specifically, is toxic or dangerous?

Most of the law is based on reforms to Medicare and Medicaid. Is that what you're talking about? Or are you talking about the private insurance market reforms? Those are based on 1) setting up state-based health insurance exchanges in which regulated private insurance plans will be offered, and 2) offering tax credits to help people buy private insurance in the individual market. Both of these elements feature prominently in the 2009 Paul Ryan-Tom Coburn comprehensive health reform bill, so the suggestion that this doesn't pass the present-day conservative test simply doesn't hold water.