Zone1 The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints the only true and living Church today

[RetiredGySgt]

Again, God doesn't do proof. It is about faith and believing. There is no scientific proof that God exists.

 

[Hector12]

Such a poor student. I once took a class from a prominent physicist. He said that many proofs they worked on would last 13 hours just to prove a small concept. You are a sad example of your anti-Mormon bigots. Just read it.

Read what? Something that you cannot explain in your own words? Give me a link that takes me directly what this Lindsey character has to say. You can't even do that.

You do not seem to have red the Bible. Have you read the Book of Mormon? What do you have to say about this?

2 Nephi 5:15, 16 "And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of precious ones which were of great abundance. And I Nephi, did build a temple, and construct it after the manner of the Temple of Solomon."

There is no evidence of the use of "iron, and of brass, and of steel" in the New World before the coming of Europeans. There is no evidence of "temple" built "after the manner of the Temple of Solomon."

The Incas wee beginning to experiment with bronze, but neither they nor the Aztecs created brass. Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin. Brass is an alloy consisting of copper and zinc.

There is no pre Colombian use of iron or steel among the American Indians. There is no evidence anywhere of buildings built in the Semitic manner.

These things last. They are discovered by archaeologists. There is no Book of Mormon archaeology, comparable of Biblical archaeology.

What about this?

Enos 1:21 "And it came to pass that the people of Nephi did till the land, and raise all manner of grain, and of fruit, and flocks of herds, and flocks of all manner of cattle of every kind, and of goats, and of wild goats, and of many horses."

Cattle are related to buffalo, but the buffalo were never domesticated. Horses existed in the Americas before the American Indians immigrated from northern Siberia - they never immigrated from the Near East, as the Book of Mormon claims that they did - but the Indians hunted the horses to extinction.

 

[Hector12]

Again, God doesn't do proof. It is about faith and believing. There is no scientific proof that God exists.

Mormonism, unlike conventional Christianity and Islam, makes claims that can be tested.

 

[Hector12]

You are so pitiful. You just want a site to prove you right. No, this is scholarship in its finest. He doesn’t hide any issues like you do. It’s very long and detail and that isn’t helpful to your bigotry. In understand

I was wondering when the insults would start. The first thing someone does when I refute his arguments is to give me material to read, material he cannot explain himself, but which he claims proves that I am mistaken. This is followed by insults and name calling, which are the lowest form of discourse.

I could trade you insult for insult, but I decline to do that. The other Mormons I have talked to were courteous.

 

[Hector12]

They show up at my door a couple of times per year. I shake their hands, and tell them I respect their willingness to work for their beliefs, but my beliefs are just very different than theirs, and unless there is a chance I might be able to convert them, I'm positive they won't convert me. After offering to help me in any way, and another round of hand shakes,they usually leave. If they don't, I sing to them, and beg them to do the Hokey Pokey with me, and if that doesn't work, I show them this tiny oddly shaped birthmark right beside my ballsack. That usually sends them on their way.

When they show up at my door, I thank them for coming by, and invite them in. Then I show them one of the many Bibles I have read, and my leather bound volume that includes The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants, and The Pearl of Great Price, which of course I have read too.

Before we begin to discuss religion, I ask them about themselves, and tell them a little about myself too. I tell them that during the War in Vietnam I would knock on people's doors to try to convince them that the War in Vietnam was unnecessary and unjustified, so I know it takes a lot of courage to do what they are doing.

When they ask, "Do you have any questions about Mormonism?

I respond, Yes, I several questions, and perhaps a few answers.

I tell them that I was proselytized for six months when I was 19 years old. I tell them that I was attracted to Mormonism, and that I wanted to become a Mormon.

I show them an article I have saved from The New York Times, dated March 15, 2005 that tells about what was really happening in the America's when the events recorded in the Book of Mormon were supposed to be happening.

I tell them that the manuscript from which Joseph Smith claimed to translate The Book of Abraham was really The Book of Breathing.

It soon becomes obvious that I know more about their religion than they do. Nevertheless, we discuss these matters courteously, and we part as friends.

 

[BULLDOG]

When they show up at my door, I thank them for coming by, and invite them in. Then I show them one of the many Bibles I have read, and my leather bound volume that includes The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants, and The Pearl of Great Price, which of course I have read too.

Before we begin to discuss religion, I ask them about themselves, and tell them a little about myself too. I tell them that during the War in Vietnam I would knock on people's doors to try to convince them that the War in Vietnam was unnecessary and unjustified, so I know it takes a lot of courage to do what they are doing.

When they ask, "Do you have any questions about Mormonism?

I respond, Yes, I several questions, and perhaps a few answers.

I tell them that I was proselytized for six months when I was 19 years old. I tell them that I was attracted to Mormonism, and that I wanted to become a Mormon.

I show them an article I have saved from The New York Times, dated March 15, 2005 that tells about what was really happening in the America's when the events recorded in the Book of Mormon were supposed to be happening.

I tell them that the manuscript from which Joseph Smith claimed to translate The Book of Abraham was really The Book of Breathing.

It soon becomes obvious that I know more about their religion than they do. Nevertheless, we discuss these matters courteously, and we part as friends.

A reasonable way to deal with them, if you don't mind taking the time to do so.

 

[Cougarbear]

Read what? Something that you cannot explain in your own words? Give me a link that takes me directly what this Lindsey character has to say. You can't even do that.

You do not seem to have red the Bible. Have you read the Book of Mormon? What do you have to say about this?

2 Nephi 5:15, 16 "And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of precious ones which were of great abundance. And I Nephi, did build a temple, and construct it after the manner of the Temple of Solomon."

There is no evidence of the use of "iron, and of brass, and of steel" in the New World before the coming of Europeans. There is no evidence of "temple" built "after the manner of the Temple of Solomon."

The Incas wee beginning to experiment with bronze, but neither they nor the Aztecs created brass. Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin. Brass is an alloy consisting of copper and zinc.

There is no pre Colombian use of iron or steel among the American Indians. There is no evidence anywhere of buildings built in the Semitic manner.

These things last. They are discovered by archaeologists. There is no Book of Mormon archaeology, comparable of Biblical archaeology.

What about this?

Enos 1:21 "And it came to pass that the people of Nephi did till the land, and raise all manner of grain, and of fruit, and flocks of herds, and flocks of all manner of cattle of every kind, and of goats, and of wild goats, and of many horses."

Cattle are related to buffalo, but the buffalo were never domesticated. Horses existed in the Americas before the American Indians immigrated from northern Siberia - they never immigrated from the Near East, as the Book of Mormon claims that they did - but the Indians hunted the horses to extinction.

I offer the proof on Jefflindsay.com. Your information is very old and very false.

 

[Cougarbear]

I was wondering when the insults would start. The first thing someone does when I refute his arguments is to give me material to read, material he cannot explain himself, but which he claims proves that I am mistaken. This is followed by insults and name calling, which are the lowest form of discourse.

I could trade you insult for insult, but I decline to do that. The other Mormons I have talked to were courteous.

No insults. Simply the truth. Can’t handle the truth? See, I’ve read the Smithsonian stuff including the redacted statements they agreed were wrong and written with bias (bigotry). You, all you want is to study what feeds your agenda. Double minded man.

 

[Hector12]

No insults. Simply the truth. Can’t handle the truth? See, I’ve read the Smithsonian stuff including the redacted statements they agreed were wrong and written with bias (bigotry). You, all you want is to study what feeds your agenda. Double minded man.

My initial agenda was to prove that Mormonism was true because I wanted to become a Mormon. Nevertheless, I wanted to know that Mormonism is true. Strong opinions based on emotion and the desire to believe something are a bad way to determine truth.

You are the one who cannot handle the truth because you have not even begun to respond to my criticisms of the Book Of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. I could repeat my arguments once again, but it is becoming tedious.

You do not know how to evaluate evidence. You do not know how to debate rationally.

Here is a link to the Smithsonian letter. Quote what is not true, and explain why it not true. Do not say that someone else proved that it is not true, and decline to give me a web address where I can read his argument. You explain why it is not true.

Smithsonian Statement Regarding The Book of Mormon

 

[Cougarbear]

My initial agenda was to prove that Mormonism was true because I wanted to become a Mormon. Nevertheless, I wanted to know that Mormonism is true. Strong opinions based on emotion and the desire to believe something are a bad way to determine truth.

You are the one who cannot handle the truth because you have not even begun to respond to my criticisms of the Book Of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. I could repeat my arguments once again, but it is becoming tedious.

You do not know how to evaluate evidence. You do not know how to debate rationally.

The problem with your agenda is faulty from the beginning. You hang your hat on incomplete archeology that thinks they cracked the language codes. What if they didn’t? What if the new science like LiBar technology finds the cities of Zarahemla and others? Nibley didn’t have anymore to work with either. And, there is another problem with the language issue. In places like ancient Americas, languages changed very fast to where in 50 years, they complete changed and could not be understood by past civilizations. Study up on that. If you really read and studied the Book of Mormon, you would know that the edition the plates was a different language than the spoken language all throughout the Book of Mormon. I invite you to study today’s information and science findings and stop hiding your poor decision to apostate yourself and not trust in the Holy Ghost and the only true way to know.

 

[Hector12]

I offer the proof on Jefflindsay.com. Your information is very old and very false.

This is what Jeff Lindsay has to say about Mormonism:

"Now here’s a topic that really spooks people. I should warn you that a portion of this site deals with religion. “Mormon? No, please, tell me you’re anything but a Mormon!” – to quote one woman I met in Switzerland. Mormons? Latter-day Saints? Yes, I’m an active member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (see LDS.org) and have written a lot about the Church and its beliefs. I take on a lot of common questions and attacks in the section I call Mormon Answers (LDS FAQ). While I answer common questions about my religion and defend my faith, I am not saying that the Church is perfect or has a monopoly on truth. I respect many religions and recognize that we can learn much from others. I also recognize that the Church has plenty of pesky mortals in it, and that means errors and embarrassments from time to time. But I do think we have some amazing things that the world should know about, especially The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ. Got one? It’s a major reason why I am proud to be a member of this Church. My experience with that book has greatly added to my conviction that Jesus Christ is real, that God lives, and that there is a way for men and women to find joy, peace, and meaning in this life and beyond. Oops, there I go, preaching again…."

https://www.jefflindsay.com/

How does that disprove my criticisms of The Book of Mormon? How does that disprove the Smithsonian Letter?

 

[Hector12]

The problem with your agenda is faulty from the beginning. You hang your hat on incomplete archeology that thinks they cracked the language codes. What if they didn’t? What if the new science like LiBar technology finds the cities of Zarahemla and others? Nibley didn’t have anymore to work with either. And, there is another problem with the language issue. In places like ancient Americas, languages changed very fast to where in 50 years, they complete changed and could not be understood by past civilizations. Study up on that. If you really read and studied the Book of Mormon, you would know that the edition the plates was a different language than the spoken language all throughout the Book of Mormon. I invite you to study today’s information and science findings and stop hiding your poor decision to apostate yourself and not trust in the Holy Ghost and the only true way to know.

Non literate languages change faster than literate languages, but they retain similar characteristics. For example, the Bantus in sub Saharan Africa never developed an indigenous way of writing their languages, but Bantu languages are similar enough to prove that they have a common source.

None of the languages of the American Indians indicate any Semitic origin at all.

 

[Cougarbear]

This is what Jeff Lindsay has to say about Mormonism:

"Now here’s a topic that really spooks people. I should warn you that a portion of this site deals with religion. “Mormon? No, please, tell me you’re anything but a Mormon!” – to quote one woman I met in Switzerland. Mormons? Latter-day Saints? Yes, I’m an active member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (see LDS.org) and have written a lot about the Church and its beliefs. I take on a lot of common questions and attacks in the section I call Mormon Answers (LDS FAQ). While I answer common questions about my religion and defend my faith, I am not saying that the Church is perfect or has a monopoly on truth. I respect many religions and recognize that we can learn much from others. I also recognize that the Church has plenty of pesky mortals in it, and that means errors and embarrassments from time to time. But I do think we have some amazing things that the world should know about, especially The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ. Got one? It’s a major reason why I am proud to be a member of this Church. My experience with that book has greatly added to my conviction that Jesus Christ is real, that God lives, and that there is a way for men and women to find joy, peace, and meaning in this life and beyond. Oops, there I go, preaching again…."

https://www.jefflindsay.com/

How does that disprove my criticisms of The Book of Mormon? How does that disprove the Smithsonian Letter?

Because when you go into depth of his scholarship you will find answers to the questions you have brought up like the metals used and the animals mentioned. You have a very concrete understanding and little higher logic and reasoning. To you, the color green is just green. No concept that green is a combination mix of blue and yellow.

 

[BackAgain]

The Mormons mistakenly melted down the golden sheets for some quick cash. Whoops.

 

[Hector12]

Because when you go into depth of his scholarship you will find answers to the questions you have brought up like the metals used and the animals mentioned. You have a very concrete understanding and little higher logic and reasoning. To you, the color green is just green. No concept that green is a combination mix of blue and yellow.

I have not found any answers from you. You make assertions you do not back up. How is my "higher logic and reasoning" "little?"

 

[Cougarbear]

Non literate languages change faster than literate languages, but they retain similar characteristics. For example, the Bantus in sub Saharan Africa never developed an indigenous way of writing their languages, but Bantu languages are similar enough to prove that they have a common source.

None of the languages of the American Indians indicate any Semitic origin at all.

Why should they? It changed every 50 years of centuries. You simply lack cognitive capabilities. It’s also the same ridiculous reason why the Book of Mormon is false because the DNA of native Americans isn’t the same as Jews in Israel. Most Jews in Israel if if the tribe of Judah as the other 10 tribes were lost by the Assyrian invasion. Lehi was of Joseph, one of those lost tribes. With our Patriarchs we know most of native Americans are of Mannassah. Some of Ephraim. There are other reasons Lindsay goes over.

 

[DGS49]

One could make a tenable argument that, for example, the personage whom we now call, "Jesus Christ" either did not exist, or was an amalgam of more than one claimant to the role of "Messiah." There would be arguments back and forth, but there could be rational arguments made on both sides. It was a long time ago, before photography, meticulous recording of events, and audio-tape.

LDS is not like that. Joe Smith lived - in historical terms - not so long ago. His sayings and writings were published and repeated, and can be tested against known facts. There is a small mountain of statements and claims by Joe Smith that are simply, provably not true. There were no cattle, no horses, no pigs...indeed, the Amerindians had NO animals that could be domesticated to do useful work. None. There was no iron before Columbus. None of the Amerindians had even invented the wheel, so chariots and wagons are simply out. The residue of epic battles have been found NOWHERE in the America's, despite decades and decades of Mormon archaeologists striving to find them.

Furthermore, we now have the science of DNA tracing, and not a single tested indigenous person of the New World has even a trace of Semitic ancestry.

The Book of Abraham, "translated" by Smith from an Egyptian manuscript has been definitively proven to be total humbug. In fact, there is no known language in the world that is known as, or could be known as "Reformed Egyptian."

Culturally and socially, the Church of JC [blah, blah, blah] has on balance been a good thing. Its adherents obey the laws, procreate, join the military services, pay their taxes, and are generally Good Citizens. But its theology and history, and most importantly its beliefs about the afterlife are ANTI-Christian and obviously just made up nonsense. If any reader here has hopes of being "exalted" in the afterlife, I'd suggest you place your bet on a different horse; this one is made of stone.

If you find that insulting, the problem is with you, not me. Facts are facts.

 

[Hector12]

Why should they? It changed every 50 years of centuries. You simply lack cognitive capabilities. It’s also the same ridiculous reason why the Book of Mormon is false because the DNA of native Americans isn’t the same as Jews in Israel. Most Jews in Israel if if the tribe of Judah as the other 10 tribes were lost by the Assyrian invasion. Lehi was of Joseph, one of those lost tribes. With our Patriarchs we know most of native Americans are of Mannassah. Some of Ephraim. There are other reasons Lindsay goes over.

There is no evidence that any Semitic DNA existed among the American Indians. Their DNA identifies them as coming form northern Siberia.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

There is no evidence that any Semitic DNA existed among the American Indians. Their DNA identifies them as coming form northern Siberia.

Very few Indians have consented to be DNA tested so you can't make that claim with any sort of authority.

 

[DGS49]

Very few Indians have consented to be DNA tested so you can't make that claim with any sort of authority.

The LDS church would pay them handsomely to get a single strand of hair. What you say is balderdash. There is no Semitic blood in the pre-Columbian America's.