The Atomic bombs

[Shogun]

See, I kinda figured you'd back down after I let you know just how much your smoking gun evidence was worth. Indeed, it's probably true NOW like it was THEN that your fellow warmonging chickenhawk pussies see your excuses as more than they are while my fellow humanitarians see your excuses for what they are. You didn't gain any ground. Big fucking deal if some standard issue righty agrees with your OPINION.




picked just for you, dude.

He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.
Albert Einstein

 

[AllieBaba]

I love it when nitwits fail to produce then claim unsubstantiated victory.

 

[doniston]

The evidence is in your own links, that you misread and thus, misunderstand. neither I nor anyone else can help you with that.

 

[doniston]

I am done with you on this matter. YOU are a FUCKING IDIOTIC MORON on this issue. You can not provide one shred of evidence, you casn not provide one refutable piece of proof to any of the estimates , all you have is trying to twist WW2 into somehow equalling Iraq.

I would suggest you learn History and then learn the ability to reason past political brainwashing but I know that would be wasted on your IGNORANCE in this matter.

When you provide something other then "nanananana, it is cause i say it is, nananananana" maybe we can talk. Tell then take your rant to the preschool play yard where it belongs.

Poor little tyke, nobody agrees with you or is willing to play with you according to your rules, so you pick up your marbles and go home. It is you who has been providing the nananans so

"BYE"

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Poor little tyke, nobody agrees with you or is willing to play with you according to your rules, so you pick up your marbles and go home. It is you who has been providing the nananans so

"BYE"

Neither you NOR Shogun have proven ANYTHING. Neither of you have linked to or quoted from any source that backs your ignorant claims. Shogun even admits is tripe is OPINION. And tries to claim documents proving the point on my side some how are opinion to. YOU, you just claim that documents I have linked to for all to read somehow support your position. You can not quote where they say what you claim, hell you can not even say which of the source documents support your idiotic claims.

In other words, while the two of you flail about proclaiming all kind of shit NEITHER of you can even provide one shred of evidence, no document, no quote, nothing to back up your personal opinions.

Get back to us when you can do other than just make unfounded claims.

 

[Shogun]

my evidence was opinion, YOUR evidence was opinion....

sensing a pattern here?

you DO know what an estimate is, right?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

my evidence was opinion, YOUR evidence was opinion....

sensing a pattern here?

you DO know what an estimate is, right?

Are you retarded? My evidence is source documents, there is NO opinion in them. They are recorded words of the actual participants. Some are intercepts of message traffic and some are Government documents. There is NO opinion in them at all. They are cut and dried fact.

Here lets try again you dumbshit.

Before we dropped the first Atomic Bomb, there is no evidence, no document, no radio intercept , no offical offer by Japan to surrender. There are intercepts that show Japan wanted to broker a deal with the Soviets that would have ended the war with Japan unoccuppied, no government change, no foreign troops on their soil, all possessions still controlled by them theirs, etc etc. No disarmament, no trials for war crimes, on and on. NO opinion in them at all, clear precise words , instructions given from Japan to the delegate in the Soviet Union.

After the first bomb was dropped we have the official records of the japanese Government that provide conclusive evidence that the Army, that controlled the Government REFUSED to surrender. The part of the Government not in control , in desperation went to the Emperor. He became worried about the potential of more bombs and the destruction of his people and the Country. But he did not intercede except to voice a desire to settle the matter.

After the second Bomb and the Soviet declaration of War, we have the Japanese Government documents that prove once again the ARMY refused to surrender. Again THEY controlled the Government. Again those that wanted a surrender went to the Emperor. This time he agreed that a surrender MUST occur. The army attempted a coup to prevent his broadcast of the surrender.

None of these things are OPINION. They are FACTS. Supported by SOURCE documents.

Now unless you are now going to claim that somehow the Japanese Government was going to do what it did not do even after 2 bombs an invasion was inevitable. So remind us again how no Japanese civilians would have died between August and the Invasion due to fire bombing, starvation and lack of fuel to heat with. Remind us how no civilians would die charging allied positions with bamboo spears in human wave attacks once the Invasion was launched. Remind us how no civilians would commit suicide when the Americans began capturing their towns, villages and cities. Remind us how these things are all just supposition, that we have no evidence this would happen.

 

[Shogun]

you are obviously having a problem discerning opinion from fact. Again, sure you posted OPINIONS by those who believe the way you do. While ignoring the same accusation of WAR CRIME that was presented then as well then. If you don't like it that your ESTIMATES are weaker than you seem to think they are then bummer fucking days. YOUR kind is why we have nuclear escalation. YOUR kind is why it's such a fucking joke to pretend we have any moral authority to decide who can and can't have nukes.


After all, Iran would just be following YOUR example, right?

I mean, think of the lives saved in combat if it just takes a couple nukes to make a point, right?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

you are obviously having a problem discerning opinion from fact. Again, sure you posted OPINIONS by those who believe the way you do. While ignoring the same accusation of WAR CRIME that was presented then as well then. If you don't like it that your ESTIMATES are weaker than you seem to think they are then bummer fucking days. YOUR kind is why we have nuclear escalation. YOUR kind is why it's such a fucking joke to pretend we have any moral authority to decide who can and can't have nukes.


After all, Iran would just be following YOUR example, right?

I mean, think of the lives saved in combat if it just takes a couple nukes to make a point, right?

There are no 'estimates" involved in why the Japanese Surrendered. It is black and white. There is no controversy on a supposed surrender before the bombs. The Emperor STATES for the record that the Bombs and the Invasion will destroy his country and he demands a surrender. Before the bombs he made NO such decision, he remained out of the Governments decision making.

Your attempts to paint it any other way are ignorant at best. You can claim opinion all you want. History is clear on what would have happened had we invaded. We have 4 years of history, we have 2 Islands of history to show the civilian reaction to being captured. NO opinion at all, just cold hard facts.

Keep on claiming otherwise. You can not do anything else, since you have no evidence to support your bullshit claims.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Neither you NOR Shogun have proven ANYTHING. Neither of you have linked to or quoted from any source that backs your ignorant claims.

You are correct. There is no support for the idea that Nips were ready to agree to the terms of unconditional surrender before the dropped the 2nd bomb. You might be able to make the argument that they would have been ready to negotiate some cease-fire/armistice, but we set our terms as unconditional surrender, negatong this possibility.

Japan was beaten well before August 1945 -- but being beaten and being willing to stop fighting are two seperate things. Given the circumstances, and with a general invasion as the only other choice, droping the bomb was the correct decision.

 

[doniston]

Provide evidence. All you have are a couple intercepts that CLEARLY indicate Japan was NOT going to surrender but rather wanted "peace" by keeping what they had and just getting the allies to leave them alone. Further we have proof that after 2 BOMBS they did not want to surrender.

Repeating yoiurself again? No matter how many timnes you say it. it won't make you right.

 

[doniston]

I love it when nitwits fail to produce then claim unsubstantiated victory.

Then yoiu must be truely gratified with the way you have been acting.

 

[Shogun]

Then don't cry croc tears when OTHER people make the same decision to slaughter American civilians. Somehow, 6-7 thousand Americans are more valuable than hundreds of THOUSANDS of men, women, and kids in hiroshima and nagasaki. Your OPINIONS may remain that it was the best choice of action but, unless you can whip out that crystal ball, yours is no more concrete than the OPINIONS of those who thought that Japan would have surrendered without nukes. Hell, Given the bush run up to Iraq, even if you ARE stupid enough to deny it RGS, should tell you a thing or two about unrealistic terms (saddam must disarm even though he didn't even HAVE the fucking WMDs) meant to green light some good ole foreigner death.

here... since, as RGS claims, America was a bastion of benevolence and unabashed concern over the Japanese population...

 

[doniston]

You are correct. There is no support for the idea that Nips were ready to agree to the terms of unconditional surrender before the dropped the 2nd bomb. You might be able to make the argument that they would have been ready to negotiate some cease-fire/armistice, but we set our terms as unconditional surrender, negatong this possibility.

Japan was beaten well before August 1945 -- but being beaten and being willing to stop fighting are two seperate things. Given the circumstances, and with a general invasion as the only other choice, droping the bomb was the correct decision.

Now you want to change the parameters of the discussion.

1. I don't think any of us have suggested that Japan had agreed to unconditional surrender.

2. Your next comment would be supporting me, except that at this time we had NOT set any surrender terms. That came later. Of course we wanted them to surrender, but we had not set any formal terms.

3. Again, your are agreeing with me, then spoiling it by suggesting that they weren't considering surrendeThey were.even tho they also had considered the contingncy of fighting to the death.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Now you want to change the parameters of the discussion.

1. I don't think any of us have suggested that Japan had agreed to unconditional surrender.

2. Your next comment would be supporting me, except that at this time we had NOT set any surrender terms. That came later. Of course we wanted them to surrender, but we had not set any formal terms.

3. Again, your are agreeing with me, then spoiling it by suggesting that they weren't considering surrendeThey were.even tho they also had considered the contingncy of fighting to the death.

You would be wrong, the position of the US was always unconditional surrender.

 

[doniston]

You would be wrong, the position of the US was always unconditional surrender.

In your stupid irrational opinion.

(I assume you weren't even alive at the time. I WAS and old enough to understand what was going on.)

 

[roomy]

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1186779

 

[Shogun]

anyone else get the feeling that RGS uses the word "unconditional" as a weapon here?


sounds like the echo of "saddam must disarm"

 

[doniston]

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1186779

And the disgussion goes on and on.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Now you want to change the parameters of the discussion.

Says he who refuses to answer a simple set of questions because he thinks the entire things was "unnecessary"

1. I don't think any of us have suggested that Japan had agreed to unconditional surrender.

That;s right. They didnt, thusly meanaing that dropping the bomb, or invading Japan, or both, was necessary to win the war.

2. Your next comment would be supporting me, except that at this time we had NOT set any surrender terms. That came later. Of course we wanted them to surrender, but we had not set any formal terms.

Our "unconditional surrender" term was set at the Cassablanca conference 14-24 JAN 1943, if not sooner.

3. Again, your are agreeing with me, then spoiling it by suggesting that they weren't considering surrender

Unless they were contemplating unconditional surrender, any such consideration is moot.

And so... what's your point?

-What do you suppose the cost in US and Japanese lives would have been, had there been an invasion?
-Given that cost, why was dropping the bomb NOT the right decision?