Tell Me Why..

[Uncensored2008]

They are taxpayers.

Then you don't need us.

Just use the taxes from public employees to fund the public works system.

Remember, Jane retired in luxury once she started taxing her children....

 

[Uncensored2008]

What is stolen exactly?

If a man on the street sticks a gun in your face and demands $100, then hands you a lolipop when you hand over the money; has he stolen from you?

Why or why not?

 

[rightwinger]

What is stolen exactly?

If a man on the street sticks a gun in your face and demands $100, then hands you a lolipop when you hand over the money; has he stolen from you?

Why or why not?

Nice try.....kinda cute

But other than your Bull Shit answers, show where they are stealing

 

[Uncensored2008]

Nice try.....kinda cute

But other than your Bull Shit answers, show where they are stealing

You ducked, as I knew you would.

Wealth is taken with the threat of force and spent on things most of us never asked for nor want.

It's theft.

 

[rightwinger]

Nice try.....kinda cute

But other than your Bull Shit answers, show where they are stealing

You ducked, as I knew you would.

Wealth is taken with the threat of force and spent on things most of us never asked for nor want.

It's theft.

Force?

Show where they are using force

 

[Uncensored2008]

Force?

Show where they are using force

I'd tell you not to be stupid, but you are a leftist.

Don't file your 1040 form detailing every minute aspect of your life (right to privacy, my ass) and refuse to pay any federal tax.

Then you'll see where force is being used.

 

[Flopper]

She does.



False. The ABA has continuing education requirements.



Blame the administrators and the NEA for that. Regardless, $45K for a 10 month job isn't bad at all.

Not sure where $45K came from.

Wisconsin

Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com



False comparison. That said, $33K with full benefits is pretty good for a starting salary and excellent job security.

No, neither the NEA nor local administration is responsible for the lack of advancement opportunities for teachers. The nature of public schools do not lend themselves to many management positions within the schools.

And that's the problem, the system doesn't reward excellence. The NEA doesn't allow it. Why is "management" your default for higher pay? Lots of fields pay producers more than managers, sales and surgery for example.

Very often a school management structure is a principal, an assistant principal and 40 teachers. That makes the chance of advancement about 1 in 20 and that's only after you obtain an advanced degree at your own expense.

The system they built sucks. Those are all separate roles and that's the problem. I used to think that some common sense just needed to be applied, but then my sister became a teacher.

By the way, it's more than just the school. It's the school administration bloatocracy, the one that really sucks the money. The building manager in our district makes more than $150,000 a year. His pay is set based on the number of employees under him. He's always hiring, like last year when he posted a job opening for a grant writer.

This mess in Wisconsin is only the beginning.

I agree with you on several points. The system does not reward excellent. However, I do not agree that teacher unions are against rewarding excellence. The NEA and local unions support the Master Teacher Program. The problem is that districts don’t. Another way unions have worked to reward excellence is working to increase the responsibility and salary for department heads. I think this usually gets shot down because it duplicates district level responsibilities.

I really can’t believe WI wants to limit collective bargaining to salaries. This eliminates everything that teacher’s bargain for that will really improve education. Salaries are not the major problem. It’s pupil to teacher ratios, time for lesson planning, better use of in-service programs, elimination of duplicate paperwork, etc. These issues are almost always on the bargaining table, but I guess they won’t be in WI.

I worked as a fulltime public school teacher for one year then in the district office for a year, before coming to the same conclusion you have. The system sucks. It is so difficult to change the system, I can understand why some people just want to do away with public education. Unions are part of the problem but they are also part of the solution. Local school districts should be the one’s going to the state capital fighting for improvements in the classroom, but they don’t. I believe the unions; with all there faults, are the only groups actually fighting to improve education in classroom.

 

[rightwinger]

Force?

Show where they are using force

I'd tell you not to be stupid, but you are a leftist.

Don't file your 1040 form detailing every minute aspect of your life (right to privacy, my ass) and refuse to pay any federal tax.

Then you'll see where force is being used.

Paying taxes is your responsibility for belonging to a modern society. If you are not happy, I'm sure there are many other countries more to your liking

 

[Flopper]

Teacher's pay can varies widely depending on the district. It is not set at the state level. Usually the state pays the district so much per pupil. The district uses that money along with other revenue to pay the teachers.

 

[asterism]

-Full disclosure-my first job when I was 15 was at the Publix by me-and the assistant store manager was a college graduate-with some of her tuition paid for by Publix-a benefit teachers don't get in the public sector (and I don't think they sure for the record). But I'm sure not every assistant manager at Publix has a 4-year college degree, but I'm pretty sure 99.9% of teachers have one.

With rare exceptions on both sides, all have 4 year degrees (see below for that). Regardless, teachers have plenty of the same programs. My sister's Master's degree? Free to her plus a raise when she got it. Student loans? Forgiven because she took a teaching job. Doctorate? 1/2 price. Summers? OFF. Weekends? OFF. Holidays? OFF Spring Break? OFF. PLUS vacation days, personal days, and sick days. Last year she worked a total of 180 days.

Yes, she makes less than me. Yes, her upper income potential in this specific profession is limited. But she always gets paid on time, the checks always cash, she is virtually guaranteed to keep her job if she's great/good/mediocre, and she gets every single summer off if she chooses.

I worked 354 days last year. I worked 325 days the last full year I had a salaried job. I worked 290 days the first year I made more than she ($37K).



That depends on how badly you want food and whether you value it being available.



If the pay was too low and the requirements too high there would be extreme shortages. As it turns out there aren't any, only localized shortages in specific areas and all because there are no incentives to fix that.

You wanna talk inequity? Compare any cop or teacher to their much more educated counterparts in the military.



The teachers demanding we pay more instead of reforming their system are completely responsible.



The "rights to be in the discussion" phrase is a false premise. What you mean is collective bargaining rights to salary which isn't even on the table currently. It will be soon, but it's best to have that talk when it is.

Life isn't fair. It wasn't fair that I lost money 3 years in a row due to the economy. My sister got raises each and every time, regardless. It wasn't fair that I was promised free healthcare at the VA when I signed up, worked, and got shot at but then was told that there was a co-pay.

You know what's not fair? Being asked to pay more for a plan I never thought would work when it was proposed, and that's the exorbitant public education pension plans. We were told they would be professionally managed and they weren't. We were told there wouldn't be end of career wage inflation but there is. We were told it would be self-sustainable and it wasn't.

Meanwhile I get hit with a tax hike after 3 years of losing money.

It's true that just about everyone suffers in a down economy. That's life.

We need to reform them I agree-I don't like how hard it is to fire a teacher for example, and I think they public workers should have the right to opt out of unions if they wish. But if people want them to sacrifice fine-but I think everybody should sacrifice as well.

2007, 2008, and 2009 were all sacrifice years. All government employees in my area got raises while I paid more and more to fund them eventhough I was losing money.

Their turn now that their system they built is crumbling.

-Not all public employees have made the system-that's what politicians do, not the others

-I understand life's not fair, and the concept of hard work. But if being a teacher is so much more appealing than your job-why don't you become one? Everybody has that option is they so wish.

Because I choose to work more in the hopes of making more.

-I come from a military family, and one family member has PTSD, and isn't fully covered by the VA-so yes I know how much BS can go into that, and it's wrong.

Notice how there was no outcry and protests from these "patriots" in Wisconsin about that. Where were the activists? Oh yeah, protesting the war and quoting the traitor Jack Murtha.

-Your food supply is dependent on the assistant managers at your local Publix? That's a joke. They run the store, not the food supply (plus there are many other options than Publix).

Ah. Well we we different versions of what's important. Efficient affordable food close to home is higher on my list than algebra being taught by a wrestling coach.

-I'm ok with sacrificing, but when the richest of the country doesn't want to pay the same tax rate as they did under Clinton for the better of the country-they're not sacrificing.

More taxes for me means less money to hire people. You decide if bailing out an unustainable system is worth those lost jobs. The business declines are sacrifice enough.

Now I'm in favor of a flat tax, but I don't think teachers are the best place to start.

Why? Their system is not sustainable. They get the same compensation, same job security, same 2-3 months off a year, and the same working conditions. All they have to do is pay a little for their own lofty retirement benefits and pay for the increases in their healthcare costs that pretty much every else has been doing for years.

 

[asterism]

Not sure where $45K came from.

Wisconsin

Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com



False comparison. That said, $33K with full benefits is pretty good for a starting salary and excellent job security.



And that's the problem, the system doesn't reward excellence. The NEA doesn't allow it. Why is "management" your default for higher pay? Lots of fields pay producers more than managers, sales and surgery for example.

Very often a school management structure is a principal, an assistant principal and 40 teachers. That makes the chance of advancement about 1 in 20 and that's only after you obtain an advanced degree at your own expense.

The system they built sucks. Those are all separate roles and that's the problem. I used to think that some common sense just needed to be applied, but then my sister became a teacher.

By the way, it's more than just the school. It's the school administration bloatocracy, the one that really sucks the money. The building manager in our district makes more than $150,000 a year. His pay is set based on the number of employees under him. He's always hiring, like last year when he posted a job opening for a grant writer.

This mess in Wisconsin is only the beginning.

I agree with you on several points. The system does not reward excellent. However, I do not agree that teacher unions are against rewarding excellence. The NEA and local unions support the Master Teacher Program. The problem is that districts don’t. Another way unions have worked to reward excellence is working to increase the responsibility and salary for department heads. I think this usually gets shot down because it duplicates district level responsibilities.

I really can’t believe WI wants to limit collective bargaining to salaries. This eliminates everything that teacher’s bargain for that will really improve education. Salaries are not the major problem. It’s pupil to teacher ratios, time for lesson planning, better use of in-service programs, elimination of duplicate paperwork, etc. These issues are almost always on the bargaining table, but I guess they won’t be in WI.

I worked as a fulltime public school teacher for one year then in the district office for a year, before coming to the same conclusion you have. The system sucks. It is so difficult to change the system, I can understand why some people just want to do away with public education. Unions are part of the problem but they are also part of the solution. Local school districts should be the one’s going to the state capital fighting for improvements in the classroom, but they don’t. I believe the unions; with all there faults, are the only groups actually fighting to improve education in classroom.

Where I see the NEA and other unions not being part of the solution because they are uncreative in their activist astroturf. This is a battle for them instead of an opportunity to prove their worth and put up fiscally sustainable reforms. It's just like the UAW and GM, making an appeal to emotion instead of coming up with a plan that doesn't require billions in taxpayer funds to avoid a bankruptcy that happened anyway.

 

[Flopper]

Wisconsin

Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com



False comparison. That said, $33K with full benefits is pretty good for a starting salary and excellent job security.



And that's the problem, the system doesn't reward excellence. The NEA doesn't allow it. Why is "management" your default for higher pay? Lots of fields pay producers more than managers, sales and surgery for example.



The system they built sucks. Those are all separate roles and that's the problem. I used to think that some common sense just needed to be applied, but then my sister became a teacher.

By the way, it's more than just the school. It's the school administration bloatocracy, the one that really sucks the money. The building manager in our district makes more than $150,000 a year. His pay is set based on the number of employees under him. He's always hiring, like last year when he posted a job opening for a grant writer.

This mess in Wisconsin is only the beginning.

I agree with you on several points. The system does not reward excellent. However, I do not agree that teacher unions are against rewarding excellence. The NEA and local unions support the Master Teacher Program. The problem is that districts don’t. Another way unions have worked to reward excellence is working to increase the responsibility and salary for department heads. I think this usually gets shot down because it duplicates district level responsibilities.

I really can’t believe WI wants to limit collective bargaining to salaries. This eliminates everything that teacher’s bargain for that will really improve education. Salaries are not the major problem. It’s pupil to teacher ratios, time for lesson planning, better use of in-service programs, elimination of duplicate paperwork, etc. These issues are almost always on the bargaining table, but I guess they won’t be in WI.

I worked as a fulltime public school teacher for one year then in the district office for a year, before coming to the same conclusion you have. The system sucks. It is so difficult to change the system, I can understand why some people just want to do away with public education. Unions are part of the problem but they are also part of the solution. Local school districts should be the one’s going to the state capital fighting for improvements in the classroom, but they don’t. I believe the unions; with all there faults, are the only groups actually fighting to improve education in classroom.

Where I see the NEA and other unions not being part of the solution because they are uncreative in their activist astroturf. This is a battle for them instead of an opportunity to prove their worth and put up fiscally sustainable reforms. It's just like the UAW and GM, making an appeal to emotion instead of coming up with a plan that doesn't require billions in taxpayer funds to avoid a bankruptcy that happened anyway.

Although local teacher unions like any union bargain for pay raise, most of the demands effect improvement of education in the classroom. Most teachers I know think improved pupil to teacher ratios are much more important than pay raises. Time for class preparation and lesson planning, more teacher aids, more teacher input into curriculum planning and text book selection are major topics. These usually are never reported by the press.

 

[BrianH]

I agree with you on several points. The system does not reward excellent. However, I do not agree that teacher unions are against rewarding excellence. The NEA and local unions support the Master Teacher Program. The problem is that districts don’t. Another way unions have worked to reward excellence is working to increase the responsibility and salary for department heads. I think this usually gets shot down because it duplicates district level responsibilities.

I really can’t believe WI wants to limit collective bargaining to salaries. This eliminates everything that teacher’s bargain for that will really improve education. Salaries are not the major problem. It’s pupil to teacher ratios, time for lesson planning, better use of in-service programs, elimination of duplicate paperwork, etc. These issues are almost always on the bargaining table, but I guess they won’t be in WI.

I worked as a fulltime public school teacher for one year then in the district office for a year, before coming to the same conclusion you have. The system sucks. It is so difficult to change the system, I can understand why some people just want to do away with public education. Unions are part of the problem but they are also part of the solution. Local school districts should be the one’s going to the state capital fighting for improvements in the classroom, but they don’t. I believe the unions; with all there faults, are the only groups actually fighting to improve education in classroom.

Where I see the NEA and other unions not being part of the solution because they are uncreative in their activist astroturf. This is a battle for them instead of an opportunity to prove their worth and put up fiscally sustainable reforms. It's just like the UAW and GM, making an appeal to emotion instead of coming up with a plan that doesn't require billions in taxpayer funds to avoid a bankruptcy that happened anyway.

Although local teacher unions like any union bargain for pay raise, most of the demands effect improvement of education in the classroom. Most teachers I know think improved pupil to teacher ratios are much more important than pay raises. Time for class preparation and lesson planning, more teacher aids, more teacher input into curriculum planning and text book selection are major topics. These usually are never reported by the press.

Exactly. I taught for two years and got out because I was getting grey hair at 26. The students were fine. I couldn't take the adminstration and the direction that the education system was going. Teachers often get blamed because their the easiest to attack. Most teachers hate standardized testing and hate the BS that the politicians give birth to.

 

[Flopper]

Where I see the NEA and other unions not being part of the solution because they are uncreative in their activist astroturf. This is a battle for them instead of an opportunity to prove their worth and put up fiscally sustainable reforms. It's just like the UAW and GM, making an appeal to emotion instead of coming up with a plan that doesn't require billions in taxpayer funds to avoid a bankruptcy that happened anyway.

Although local teacher unions like any union bargain for pay raise, most of the demands effect improvement of education in the classroom. Most teachers I know think improved pupil to teacher ratios are much more important than pay raises. Time for class preparation and lesson planning, more teacher aids, more teacher input into curriculum planning and text book selection are major topics. These usually are never reported by the press.

Exactly. I taught for two years and got out because I was getting grey hair at 26. The students were fine. I couldn't take the adminstration and the direction that the education system was going. Teachers often get blamed because their the easiest to attack. Most teachers hate standardized testing and hate the BS that the politicians give birth to.

I also taught for a year and worked in the district office for a year. I was never a fan of the unions but they got a lot of things done that helped in the classroom. I think the biggest problem in education is a disconnect between the legislature, the state dept of education, the districts, the schools, and classrooms. There is just too much bureaucracy. Problems in the classroom just seem to get lost. The year I taught, which was my first and last year teaching, I had 34 kids in class, not enough text books, a heating system that only worked about half the time, and no teacher's aid. The district didn't do jack shit and that was my last year teaching.

 

[BrianH]

Although local teacher unions like any union bargain for pay raise, most of the demands effect improvement of education in the classroom. Most teachers I know think improved pupil to teacher ratios are much more important than pay raises. Time for class preparation and lesson planning, more teacher aids, more teacher input into curriculum planning and text book selection are major topics. These usually are never reported by the press.

Exactly. I taught for two years and got out because I was getting grey hair at 26. The students were fine. I couldn't take the adminstration and the direction that the education system was going. Teachers often get blamed because their the easiest to attack. Most teachers hate standardized testing and hate the BS that the politicians give birth to.

I also taught for a year and worked in the district office for a year. I was never a fan of the unions but they got a lot of things done that helped in the classroom. I think the biggest problem in education is a disconnect between the legislature, the state dept of education, the districts, the schools, and classrooms. There is just too much bureaucracy. Problems in the classroom just seem to get lost. The year I taught, which was my first and last year teaching, I had 34 kids in class, not enough text books, a heating system that only worked about half the time, and no teacher's aid. The district didn't do jack shit and that was my last year teaching.

LOL. we had similar experiences. They stuck me in a "closet" with 30 kids and 28 desks. Two kids had to sit in chairs in the corner. The textbooks were falling apart and the administration was more concerened with gravelling at parents' feet rather than actually backing the teachers up. I taught World Geography for a year, and then 5 days before my second year (literally) I found out from the school counselor that I was going to have to teacher Government and Economics. I actually got the text book 3 days before school started. I was never even formally told by any administration that I was having to teach a new subject. I had a terrible experience with teaching my second year. My first year evaluations were great. I did everything like I was supposed to. The second year, they nailed me on stupid shit. I got docked for not teaching enough techonology curriculum--my classroom had two plugs. The principal also docked me for not turning grades in, in a timely manner. I think the furthest out ever got on grades was about a week and a half--because of teaching three subjects. I never missed a deadline and none of the other teachers were getting hounded for "late" grades when they were further behind than I. I found out later that they were pushing me out so they could move a coach into my position. Big suprise. Anyway, got a better job with less stress and more pay, so it's all good.