Tell Me Why..

[asterism]

I'm hoping you're not suggesting that public sector workers don't pay taxes. You cannot separate the two populations-because the public sector workers are a part of the taxpayers.

With that said teachers are underpaid (at least here in Florida). They make about $45K per year or so.Their salaries has to be compared to others who have their credentials (college graduates). This is well below what the median income for college grads is here. So the benefits they receive (that they pay into-just as much as anybody else does), are more incentive to get better public workers.

The less money/benefits we give to public sector workers like firefighters, police officers, teachers-the more that ones who's more qualified are going to seek employment else where.

$45K for 10 months of 40 hrs a week work, full healthcare and a full pension after 20 years is damn good. It's more than the branch manager at the nearest credit union makes. It's what the assistant manager at the closest Publix makes. It's not great pay and the potential isn't sky high like the private sector but the job security makes it a great trade off for most. It's about what an E-7 makes at 12-13 years of service, and the education requirements are comparable.

That branch manger may or may not have a 4 year degree.

She does.

Just about every full time teacher in the country has a degree and often a masters which cost that teacher something in the range of $30,000 to $200,000. The cost doesn't end there. Every teacher is required by law to continue their education which is often at their own expense, something that your branch manger doesn't have to worry about.

False. The ABA has continuing education requirements.

Classroom room expenses are again out of the pocket of the teacher. When that branch manger is a credit union manger, that school teacher will probably still be teaching your kids. And when that branch that moves on to become a comptroller at another financial institution, that teacher will probably still be in the classroom. What most people don't realize is that teaching is a dead in job. Opportunity for advancement is poor. Opportunity to achieve real financial success is non-existent.

Blame the administrators and the NEA for that. Regardless, $45K for a 10 month job isn't bad at all.

 

[Londoner]

The pension system needs some serious reform, and the obligations states have made to workers are not realistic given the new economic reality.

But this isn't about reform. Corporations (aided by Movement Conservatism) are using this disaster to redraw the financial and political map of this country. This crisis was brought about by criminal risk mismanagement on Wall Street, but it is being used to choke labor and get rid of the last vestiges of the middle class. The special interests who own Washington and mass media are taking America back to the gilded age where concentrated wealth trumped representative democracy. They are going after unions, Social Security, and Medicare. They are creating a two tier society of ultra wealthy owners surrounded by 3rd world labor. They are literally destroying the middle class.

A narrow group of interests wrecked our financial markets with bogus financial products, and now talk radio is directing public rage at teachers . . . so those same interests can have even more of the pie. . . as the serfs fight over nickels.

Brilliant.

(Does Hannity ever discuss how much money AIG burned? If people only knew who bankrupted their future...)

 

[JamesInFlorida]

$45K for 10 months of 40 hrs a week work, full healthcare and a full pension after 20 years is damn good. It's more than the branch manager at the nearest credit union makes. It's what the assistant manager at the closest Publix makes. It's not great pay and the potential isn't sky high like the private sector but the job security makes it a great trade off for most. It's about what an E-7 makes at 12-13 years of service, and the education requirements are comparable.

That branch manger may or may not have a 4 year degree.

She does.

Just about every full time teacher in the country has a degree and often a masters which cost that teacher something in the range of $30,000 to $200,000. The cost doesn't end there. Every teacher is required by law to continue their education which is often at their own expense, something that your branch manger doesn't have to worry about.

False. The ABA has continuing education requirements.

Classroom room expenses are again out of the pocket of the teacher. When that branch manger is a credit union manger, that school teacher will probably still be teaching your kids. And when that branch that moves on to become a comptroller at another financial institution, that teacher will probably still be in the classroom. What most people don't realize is that teaching is a dead in job. Opportunity for advancement is poor. Opportunity to achieve real financial success is non-existent.

Blame the administrators and the NEA for that. Regardless, $45K for a 10 month job isn't bad at all.

-Full disclosure-my first job when I was 15 was at the Publix by me-and the assistant store manager was a college graduate-with some of her tuition paid for by Publix-a benefit teachers don't get in the public sector (and I don't think they sure for the record). But I'm sure not every assistant manager at Publix has a 4-year college degree, but I'm pretty sure 99.9% of teachers have one.

-I'm even more sure that teachers are much, much, more vital to the overall well being of the nation than assistant managers at Publix

-Having quality teachers (and police officers/fire fighters), affect everybody in the area in one way or another. Even if you don't go to public school-they will still affect you due to, people you'll work with, live with, members of your family, friends, the overall community as a whole.

-I think it's important to remember that teachers, fire fighters, police officers, etc. are not responsible for the current economic problems whatsoever (the politicians are). But they shouldn't be punished for this, and taking away rights to be in the discussion over benefits that they signed up for, and pay into, and have worked for isn't fair. We need to reform them I agree-I don't like how hard it is to fire a teacher for example, and I think they public workers should have the right to opt out of unions if they wish. But if people want them to sacrifice fine-but I think everybody should sacrifice as well.

 

[Flopper]

$45K for 10 months of 40 hrs a week work, full healthcare and a full pension after 20 years is damn good. It's more than the branch manager at the nearest credit union makes. It's what the assistant manager at the closest Publix makes. It's not great pay and the potential isn't sky high like the private sector but the job security makes it a great trade off for most. It's about what an E-7 makes at 12-13 years of service, and the education requirements are comparable.

That branch manger may or may not have a 4 year degree.

She does.

Just about every full time teacher in the country has a degree and often a masters which cost that teacher something in the range of $30,000 to $200,000. The cost doesn't end there. Every teacher is required by law to continue their education which is often at their own expense, something that your branch manger doesn't have to worry about.

False. The ABA has continuing education requirements.

Classroom room expenses are again out of the pocket of the teacher. When that branch manger is a credit union manger, that school teacher will probably still be teaching your kids. And when that branch that moves on to become a comptroller at another financial institution, that teacher will probably still be in the classroom. What most people don't realize is that teaching is a dead in job. Opportunity for advancement is poor. Opportunity to achieve real financial success is non-existent.

Blame the administrators and the NEA for that. Regardless, $45K for a 10 month job isn't bad at all.

Not sure where $45K came from. The starting teacher salary in the United States as a whole is $33,227. Average pay for garbage collectors in the US is $26,626 to $45,265,

No, neither the NEA nor local administration is responsible for the lack of advancement opportunities for teachers. The nature of public schools do not lend themselves to many management positions within the schools. Very often a school management structure is a principal, an assistant principal and 40 teachers. That makes the chance of advancement about 1 in 20 and that's only after you obtain an advanced degree at your own expense.

 

[asterism]

That branch manger may or may not have a 4 year degree.

She does.



False. The ABA has continuing education requirements.

Classroom room expenses are again out of the pocket of the teacher. When that branch manger is a credit union manger, that school teacher will probably still be teaching your kids. And when that branch that moves on to become a comptroller at another financial institution, that teacher will probably still be in the classroom. What most people don't realize is that teaching is a dead in job. Opportunity for advancement is poor. Opportunity to achieve real financial success is non-existent.

Blame the administrators and the NEA for that. Regardless, $45K for a 10 month job isn't bad at all.

-Full disclosure-my first job when I was 15 was at the Publix by me-and the assistant store manager was a college graduate-with some of her tuition paid for by Publix-a benefit teachers don't get in the public sector (and I don't think they sure for the record). But I'm sure not every assistant manager at Publix has a 4-year college degree, but I'm pretty sure 99.9% of teachers have one.

With rare exceptions on both sides, all have 4 year degrees (see below for that). Regardless, teachers have plenty of the same programs. My sister's Master's degree? Free to her plus a raise when she got it. Student loans? Forgiven because she took a teaching job. Doctorate? 1/2 price. Summers? OFF. Weekends? OFF. Holidays? OFF Spring Break? OFF. PLUS vacation days, personal days, and sick days. Last year she worked a total of 180 days.

Yes, she makes less than me. Yes, her upper income potential in this specific profession is limited. But she always gets paid on time, the checks always cash, she is virtually guaranteed to keep her job if she's great/good/mediocre, and she gets every single summer off if she chooses.

I worked 354 days last year. I worked 325 days the last full year I had a salaried job. I worked 290 days the first year I made more than she ($37K).

-I'm even more sure that teachers are much, much, more vital to the overall well being of the nation than assistant managers at Publix

That depends on how badly you want food and whether you value it being available.

-Having quality teachers (and police officers/fire fighters), affect everybody in the area in one way or another. Even if you don't go to public school-they will still affect you due to, people you'll work with, live with, members of your family, friends, the overall community as a whole.

If the pay was too low and the requirements too high there would be extreme shortages. As it turns out there aren't any, only localized shortages in specific areas and all because there are no incentives to fix that.

You wanna talk inequity? Compare any cop or teacher to their much more educated counterparts in the military.

-I think it's important to remember that teachers, fire fighters, police officers, etc. are not responsible for the current economic problems whatsoever (the politicians are).

The teachers demanding we pay more instead of reforming their system are completely responsible.

But they shouldn't be punished for this, and taking away rights to be in the discussion over benefits that they signed up for, and pay into, and have worked for isn't fair.

The "rights to be in the discussion" phrase is a false premise. What you mean is collective bargaining rights to salary which isn't even on the table currently. It will be soon, but it's best to have that talk when it is.

Life isn't fair. It wasn't fair that I lost money 3 years in a row due to the economy. My sister got raises each and every time, regardless. It wasn't fair that I was promised free healthcare at the VA when I signed up, worked, and got shot at but then was told that there was a co-pay.

You know what's not fair? Being asked to pay more for a plan I never thought would work when it was proposed, and that's the exorbitant public education pension plans. We were told they would be professionally managed and they weren't. We were told there wouldn't be end of career wage inflation but there is. We were told it would be self-sustainable and it wasn't.

Meanwhile I get hit with a tax hike after 3 years of losing money.

It's true that just about everyone suffers in a down economy. That's life.

We need to reform them I agree-I don't like how hard it is to fire a teacher for example, and I think they public workers should have the right to opt out of unions if they wish. But if people want them to sacrifice fine-but I think everybody should sacrifice as well.

2007, 2008, and 2009 were all sacrifice years. All government employees in my area got raises while I paid more and more to fund them eventhough I was losing money.

Their turn now that their system they built is crumbling.

 

[asterism]

That branch manger may or may not have a 4 year degree.

She does.



False. The ABA has continuing education requirements.

Classroom room expenses are again out of the pocket of the teacher. When that branch manger is a credit union manger, that school teacher will probably still be teaching your kids. And when that branch that moves on to become a comptroller at another financial institution, that teacher will probably still be in the classroom. What most people don't realize is that teaching is a dead in job. Opportunity for advancement is poor. Opportunity to achieve real financial success is non-existent.

Blame the administrators and the NEA for that. Regardless, $45K for a 10 month job isn't bad at all.

Not sure where $45K came from.

Wisconsin

Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com

The starting teacher salary in the United States as a whole is $33,227. Average pay for garbage collectors in the US is $26,626 to $45,265,

False comparison. That said, $33K with full benefits is pretty good for a starting salary and excellent job security.

No, neither the NEA nor local administration is responsible for the lack of advancement opportunities for teachers. The nature of public schools do not lend themselves to many management positions within the schools.

And that's the problem, the system doesn't reward excellence. The NEA doesn't allow it. Why is "management" your default for higher pay? Lots of fields pay producers more than managers, sales and surgery for example.

Very often a school management structure is a principal, an assistant principal and 40 teachers. That makes the chance of advancement about 1 in 20 and that's only after you obtain an advanced degree at your own expense.

The system they built sucks. Those are all separate roles and that's the problem. I used to think that some common sense just needed to be applied, but then my sister became a teacher.

By the way, it's more than just the school. It's the school administration bloatocracy, the one that really sucks the money. The building manager in our district makes more than $150,000 a year. His pay is set based on the number of employees under him. He's always hiring, like last year when he posted a job opening for a grant writer.

This mess in Wisconsin is only the beginning.

 

[Flopper]

That branch manger may or may not have a 4 year degree.

She does.



False. The ABA has continuing education requirements.

Classroom room expenses are again out of the pocket of the teacher. When that branch manger is a credit union manger, that school teacher will probably still be teaching your kids. And when that branch that moves on to become a comptroller at another financial institution, that teacher will probably still be in the classroom. What most people don't realize is that teaching is a dead in job. Opportunity for advancement is poor. Opportunity to achieve real financial success is non-existent.

Blame the administrators and the NEA for that. Regardless, $45K for a 10 month job isn't bad at all.

-Full disclosure-my first job when I was 15 was at the Publix by me-and the assistant store manager was a college graduate-with some of her tuition paid for by Publix-a benefit teachers don't get in the public sector (and I don't think they sure for the record). But I'm sure not every assistant manager at Publix has a 4-year college degree, but I'm pretty sure 99.9% of teachers have one.

-I'm even more sure that teachers are much, much, more vital to the overall well being of the nation than assistant managers at Publix

-Having quality teachers (and police officers/fire fighters), affect everybody in the area in one way or another. Even if you don't go to public school-they will still affect you due to, people you'll work with, live with, members of your family, friends, the overall community as a whole.

-I think it's important to remember that teachers, fire fighters, police officers, etc. are not responsible for the current economic problems whatsoever (the politicians are). But they shouldn't be punished for this, and taking away rights to be in the discussion over benefits that they signed up for, and pay into, and have worked for isn't fair. We need to reform them I agree-I don't like how hard it is to fire a teacher for example, and I think they public workers should have the right to opt out of unions if they wish. But if people want them to sacrifice fine-but I think everybody should sacrifice as well.

You're right. Payment for tuitions and continuing education is not provided to teachers. The reason is that continuing education is a job requirement. That statement only makes sense to educational administrators. Translated it means we can't afford it.

So many people are against teacher unions and don't have the foggiest idea of what they are all about. Most people seem to think that salaries and benefits are all the unions are after. Nothing could be further from the true. Salaries and benefits are very limited by state revenues. Until recently, there has been little difference between union salary demands and administration offers. Probably the biggest issues with unions is reducing the teacher to pupil ratio and providing free time at school for lesson planning. Why? Because it is the one most important factors in determining a teachers success in the classroom. It's a big cost item because it requires hiring lots of new teachers. When the state says they want to restrict collective bargaining to only salaries, they are excluding just about everything that will really improve education.

The future of this country depends more than ever on education. For the US to complete with countries like China we have to be smarter and more creative. We certainly can't match their labor rates. Success does not depend on computers, new schools, or modernized curriculum. It all depends on the skill and dedication of the teacher in the classroom. If our teachers fail, the country fails.

 

[Iowa10000]

Grunt 11b, you really think they give a crap about what you said. I can tell you right now most of them don't believe you and the rest have already went back to fox news to get a new does of republicnism.

I also pay 230.00 for retiree health ins. But the fact is I can't live on the SS, pension and the 6000 I make cutting grass so i have to take about 20, 000 a year out of savings. Do to the fact I take money out of my ira I have to pay taxes on every penny of my income including the 3000.oo I pay my company for retiree healt ins.
I paid close to 10,000 in taxes this year, more than a lot of corp's paid and most likely more than some of the millionairs who know how to hide their money and feel good about it as they laugh at you and me.

And from what I have been reading it looks like the states are going to come after retireee's helth ins in the public sector next, many of them have already excluded new hires.

 

[Iowa10000]

The biggest problem with comparrison is seldom are you looking at apples and apples. Job duties, and educational requirements are often different for the same type of work in the private sector compared to public.

Generally the age is higher and the education is more in the public sector. There is often advancement oppertunity thats not available to teachers and other public workers not to forget many private workers get a bonus. (wallstree paid 141,000 average bonus this year, one year after they trashed the ecconomy).

 

[jgarden]

public sector workers get paid so much, have practically free benefits, free retirement, and almost never get fired? Because we the taxpayers are paying for it!!
Suckers.....

If I might be so bold as to interrupt this rant, here are a few points that haven't been addressed and unlike "Philobeado," who expects you to take his word for it, I provide references.

..... studies by the Economic Policy Institute as well as University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee economists Keith Bender and John Heywood show clearly that public-sector employees are less well-compensated than comparably educated and experienced private-sector workers in Wisconsin.

There are 13 states with no collective bargaining rights for public workers; 8 of them have larger budget shortfalls than does Wisconsin. In Texas, for example, a non-collective bargaining state whose low-tax, "open for business" economic policies are vaunted by the right, the state's deficit as a percentage of the total budget is over twice that of Wisconsin's.

As Wisconsin struggles to recover from the Great Recession, an economic downturn propelled by lack of consumer demand, Walker intends to significantly reduce the purchasing power of 300,000 middle-class consumers and taxpayers. The negative ripple effects of this austerity and shrinking consumer spending will cost Wisconsin thousands of private-sector jobs and stifle the state's economic recovery.

The immediate crisis, according to Walker, is a $137 million shortfall in the current biennial budget. "We're broke; we don't have the money," says the governor, and only slashing the compensation and bargaining rights of public employees can get us through the crisis. (Let's ignore for the moment the inconvenient fact for Walker's "we're broke" trope that at the same time he was slashing compensation for teachers, he was increasing the deficit by bestowing $117 million in business tax breaks.)

..... as a study by the Institute for Wisconsin's Future documented, Wisconsin corporations underpay state and local taxes by more than $1.3 billion annually: This is the difference between what businesses actually pay in state and local taxes and what they would be contributing if paying at the average national rate.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/116955013.html

 

[Care4all]

from one of the links above....beginning salary for teachers in wisconsin is ONLY 25K???? wow, that is very little and as bad as Maine...

 

[Uncensored2008]

They work for the private sector, because they work for the government,

Of course they do, pigs fly and Obama is competent...

The absurd bullshit which leftists come up with....

 

[JamesInFlorida]

She does.



False. The ABA has continuing education requirements.



Blame the administrators and the NEA for that. Regardless, $45K for a 10 month job isn't bad at all.

-Full disclosure-my first job when I was 15 was at the Publix by me-and the assistant store manager was a college graduate-with some of her tuition paid for by Publix-a benefit teachers don't get in the public sector (and I don't think they sure for the record). But I'm sure not every assistant manager at Publix has a 4-year college degree, but I'm pretty sure 99.9% of teachers have one.

With rare exceptions on both sides, all have 4 year degrees (see below for that). Regardless, teachers have plenty of the same programs. My sister's Master's degree? Free to her plus a raise when she got it. Student loans? Forgiven because she took a teaching job. Doctorate? 1/2 price. Summers? OFF. Weekends? OFF. Holidays? OFF Spring Break? OFF. PLUS vacation days, personal days, and sick days. Last year she worked a total of 180 days.

Yes, she makes less than me. Yes, her upper income potential in this specific profession is limited. But she always gets paid on time, the checks always cash, she is virtually guaranteed to keep her job if she's great/good/mediocre, and she gets every single summer off if she chooses.

I worked 354 days last year. I worked 325 days the last full year I had a salaried job. I worked 290 days the first year I made more than she ($37K).



That depends on how badly you want food and whether you value it being available.



If the pay was too low and the requirements too high there would be extreme shortages. As it turns out there aren't any, only localized shortages in specific areas and all because there are no incentives to fix that.

You wanna talk inequity? Compare any cop or teacher to their much more educated counterparts in the military.



The teachers demanding we pay more instead of reforming their system are completely responsible.

But they shouldn't be punished for this, and taking away rights to be in the discussion over benefits that they signed up for, and pay into, and have worked for isn't fair.

The "rights to be in the discussion" phrase is a false premise. What you mean is collective bargaining rights to salary which isn't even on the table currently. It will be soon, but it's best to have that talk when it is.

Life isn't fair. It wasn't fair that I lost money 3 years in a row due to the economy. My sister got raises each and every time, regardless. It wasn't fair that I was promised free healthcare at the VA when I signed up, worked, and got shot at but then was told that there was a co-pay.

You know what's not fair? Being asked to pay more for a plan I never thought would work when it was proposed, and that's the exorbitant public education pension plans. We were told they would be professionally managed and they weren't. We were told there wouldn't be end of career wage inflation but there is. We were told it would be self-sustainable and it wasn't.

Meanwhile I get hit with a tax hike after 3 years of losing money.

It's true that just about everyone suffers in a down economy. That's life.

We need to reform them I agree-I don't like how hard it is to fire a teacher for example, and I think they public workers should have the right to opt out of unions if they wish. But if people want them to sacrifice fine-but I think everybody should sacrifice as well.

2007, 2008, and 2009 were all sacrifice years. All government employees in my area got raises while I paid more and more to fund them eventhough I was losing money.

Their turn now that their system they built is crumbling.

-Not all public employees have made the system-that's what politicians do, not the others

-I understand life's not fair, and the concept of hard work. But if being a teacher is so much more appealing than your job-why don't you become one? Everybody has that option is they so wish.

-I come from a military family, and one family member has PTSD, and isn't fully covered by the VA-so yes I know how much BS can go into that, and it's wrong.

-Your food supply is dependent on the assistant managers at your local Publix? That's a joke. They run the store, not the food supply (plus there are many other options than Publix).

-I'm ok with sacrificing, but when the richest of the country doesn't want to pay the same tax rate as they did under Clinton for the better of the country-they're not sacrificing. Now I'm in favor of a flat tax, but I don't think teachers are the best place to start.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Public employees don't make any more money than private sector employees at the same level of education and training.

You painted yourself into a corner. You sought to minimize the impact of the perqs by noting that they are part of the compensation package, when extrapolated - we see a damned good compensation package - far above the average private sector worker.

You think the average teacher with a master's degree makes more than the average MBA?

The average teacher doesn't have a master's degree. The average teacher has a BA in Liberal Studies. To earn a BALS with a 2.0 or so requires a pulse - little more.

Further, MBA's are a dime a dozen, I know, I've got one. An MBA is not a ticket to fabulous wealth.

Sure, an MBA will generally earn more than an MA in liberal arts, they also work a HELL of a lot harder to get the business degree.

 

[Uncensored2008]

There are no free lunches

Only in your fantasy world

It's not free, it's stolen (looted) from the tax payers.

 

[JamesInFlorida]

There are no free lunches

Only in your fantasy world

It's not free, it's stolen (looted) from the tax payers.

They are taxpayers.

 

[rightwinger]

The biggest problem with comparrison is seldom are you looking at apples and apples. Job duties, and educational requirements are often different for the same type of work in the private sector compared to public.

Generally the age is higher and the education is more in the public sector. There is often advancement oppertunity thats not available to teachers and other public workers not to forget many private workers get a bonus. (wallstree paid 141,000 average bonus this year, one year after they trashed the ecconomy).

Most of the salary comparisons between public and private sector jobs compare median salaries instead of comparing similar job responsibilities

Median salaries of public sector employees appear to be higher because they do not include many unskilled labor positions. Public sector employees tend to be higher educated because low skilled jobs are contracted out.

When looking at like job titles....Public sector employees are almost always paid less. Top management makes less, lawyers make less, engineers make less, accountants make less and secretaries make less.

Public sector employees have traditionally traded off salary for job security and a pension

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

do you think the gvt wouldn't collect taxes from these people if they worked in the private sector?

maybe i missed your point?

The canard of the left is that public workers pay taxes, so the private sector isn't really supporting them, they're supporting themselves.

Jane in the story found out the reality of that claim.

They work for the private sector, because they work for the government, and we have a government of the people, by the people, for the people. The government is a company owned by the people, that has people working for it.

Wow.. you've gone full blown retard on us.

I expect something this completely asinine from Shittowel or TM... but not from you man.

 

[rightwinger]

There are no free lunches

Only in your fantasy world

It's not free, it's stolen (looted) from the tax payers.

What is stolen exactly?

 

[Uncensored2008]

I'm sure you're trying tell us something. I'm just not too sure what you're trying to say.

This is why you are a democrat, even simple concepts, spelled out in detail elude you.