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Don't like to hear what? You have not listed or cited any evidence that homosexuality is somehow tied to the fall of Rome.I like you peach but your understanding of Roman history is very lopsided. Do you even understand the military implications of defending the territories they captured? Have you ever looked at a map of how Rome started and how big it was when the collapse began?I did not say that was the only cause.
They did the same thing to me also.
They don't want to deal with the rest of the reasons.
it's specifically been stated that homosexuality was one reason, how so? Simple question.
Read post 278
I am no different than many historians who agree with me and they have Ph.D.'s
You just don't like to hear it.
I like you peach but your understanding of Roman history is very lopsided. Do you even understand the military implications of defending the territories they captured? Have you ever looked at a map of how Rome started and how big it was when the collapse began?it's specifically been stated that homosexuality was one reason, how so? Simple question.
Read post 278
I am no different than many historians who agree with me and they have Ph.D.'s
You just don't like to hear it.
No, I want to hear it, I've been asking to hear it...now's your chance!
NO you don't want to hear it.
You just want to have fun and argue.
Don't like to hear what? You have not listed or cited any evidence that homosexuality is somehow tied to the fall of Rome.I like you peach but your understanding of Roman history is very lopsided. Do you even understand the military implications of defending the territories they captured? Have you ever looked at a map of how Rome started and how big it was when the collapse began?They did the same thing to me also.
They don't want to deal with the rest of the reasons.
it's specifically been stated that homosexuality was one reason, how so? Simple question.
Read post 278
I am no different than many historians who agree with me and they have Ph.D.'s
You just don't like to hear it.
And you are now gonna claim you're a historian? You're kidding right? I was the FIRST and ONLY person in this stupid thread that listed the parties involved in the fall of the Roman Empire and WHY they invaded Rome. And I certainly ain't no fucking historian
I like you peach but your understanding of Roman history is very lopsided. Do you even understand the military implications of defending the territories they captured? Have you ever looked at a map of how Rome started and how big it was when the collapse began?Read post 278
I am no different than many historians who agree with me and they have Ph.D.'s
You just don't like to hear it.
No, I want to hear it, I've been asking to hear it...now's your chance!
NO you don't want to hear it.
You just want to have fun and argue.
No, you do?
I'm sorry, don't blame me if you can't back your point up.
The Roman empire did NOT fall because of homosexuality. To suggest so it patently stupid. The Roman empire was toppled because of excessive conquest & the inability to defend all territories as the armies we're spread too thin. Political corruption also was a big factor.Which ones? I keep hearing people make those claims yet when we look at the 'fall' of societies- I can't think of any that did.
The Ottoman Empire? Nope- that was losing World War 1 and rise of secular forces.
The Aztec Empire? Nope- that was caused by the Spanish and the collusion of the Aztec's conquered neighbors.
The Incan Empire? Nope- see above.
The reality is that the United States is the most powerful country in the world- and we have what ancient Jews would consider an immoral society.
The societies that are the least tolerant of 'immoral and sexual deviancy'? Well that would be the repressed of Muslim societies- Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Which do you choose as the most 'moral path'? The United States or Saudi Arabia?
We are tolerant and have always been tolerant. We have never killed gays in this country like the Muslim societies.
The Ottoman Empire killed Armenian Christians because of the rise of Islam and they were seen as a threat.
Aztec's over used their resources as well as the Inca's.
Have you read The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon?
Life became cheap in the latter days of the Roman Empire. Burdensome regulation and taxes made manufacturing and trade unprofitable. Families were locked into hereditary trades and vocations allowing little if any vocational choice. Eventually, children were seen as a needless burden and abortion and infanticide became commonplace. In some cases, children were sold into slavery.
Manners and social life fell into debauchery. Under Justinian, entertainment grew bawdier and more bizarre. Orgies and love feasts were common. Homosexuality and bestiality were openly practiced. Under Nero, Christians were blamed for the great fire in Rome and horribly persecuted.
Similar patterns can be found in other civilizations. In Greece, the music of the young people became wild and coarse. Popular entertainment was brutal and vulgar. Promiscuity, homosexuality, and drunkenness became a daily part of life. And all moral and social restraints were lost leading to greater decadence.
In Carthage, worship turned from Baal to the earth goddess Tanit. "Sacrifices to the goddess of fertility were supposed to ensure productivity, long life, and even greater profits."Ornately carved funeral monuments depicting infant sacrifice can be seen today along with thousands of tiny stone coffins to infants sacrificed to the pagan goddess.
The parallels to our own nation are striking. No, we don't sacrifice infants to a pagan goddess, but we have aborted over 57 million babies on the altar of convenience. And various sexual practices are openly accepted as part of an alternative lifestyle.
It starts out small and continues until the society falls.
First it became acceptable to have sex out or wedlock
Then it became acceptable for couples to move in together without marriage and have children out of wedlock.
Our children are being exposed to violent video games and sex on TV
From acceptance of homosexuality it moves on to, polygamy, to sex with animals and on and on down the line.
It is a combination of all not just sex or homosexuality that leads to the society's downfall.
ANYONE who twists those FACTS into an argument about sex in any fashion does not know shit about Roman history.
the Roman empire fell for several reasons. One of them was moral and cultural decline. Others were spin offs of that anything-goes culture. They ate, drank, and screwed instead of managing the empire, paying its bills, outfitting its military, and repairing infrastructure--------------see any similarities to the USA today?
I think it was because with the rise of Christianity sales of figures of their many gods fell way off. Hey! don't laugh! It was a big industry back then.
Come to think of it one could argue that Christianity caused the fall of Rome. HMMMMMMMMmmmmm????
It's not doing a bad job of destroying the American government also.
No it's people like you who are very uninformed and know very little history.
Reread your post. Perhaps I misread it but it seemed pretty clear to meDon't like to hear what? You have not listed or cited any evidence that homosexuality is somehow tied to the fall of Rome.I like you peach but your understanding of Roman history is very lopsided. Do you even understand the military implications of defending the territories they captured? Have you ever looked at a map of how Rome started and how big it was when the collapse began?it's specifically been stated that homosexuality was one reason, how so? Simple question.
Read post 278
I am no different than many historians who agree with me and they have Ph.D.'s
You just don't like to hear it.
And you are now gonna claim you're a historian? You're kidding right? I was the FIRST and ONLY person in this stupid thread that listed the parties involved in the fall of the Roman Empire and WHY they invaded Rome. And I certainly ain't no fucking historian
Where did I say I was a historian?
Man you really read into things that are never said.
I like you peach but your understanding of Roman history is very lopsided. Do you even understand the military implications of defending the territories they captured? Have you ever looked at a map of how Rome started and how big it was when the collapse began?
I am no different than many historians who agree with me and they have Ph.D.'s
You just don't like to hear it.
No, I want to hear it, I've been asking to hear it...now's your chance!
NO you don't want to hear it.
You just want to have fun and argue.
No, you do?
I'm sorry, don't blame me if you can't back your point up.
I have.
I do. I believe there is historical fact to a lot of bible stories. The interpretation or reason behind those stories is up for debate however.The Roman empire did NOT fall because of homosexuality. To suggest so it patently stupid. The Roman empire was toppled because of excessive conquest & the inability to defend all territories as the armies we're spread too thin. Political corruption also was a big factor.We are tolerant and have always been tolerant. We have never killed gays in this country like the Muslim societies.
The Ottoman Empire killed Armenian Christians because of the rise of Islam and they were seen as a threat.
Aztec's over used their resources as well as the Inca's.
Have you read The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon?
Life became cheap in the latter days of the Roman Empire. Burdensome regulation and taxes made manufacturing and trade unprofitable. Families were locked into hereditary trades and vocations allowing little if any vocational choice. Eventually, children were seen as a needless burden and abortion and infanticide became commonplace. In some cases, children were sold into slavery.
Manners and social life fell into debauchery. Under Justinian, entertainment grew bawdier and more bizarre. Orgies and love feasts were common. Homosexuality and bestiality were openly practiced. Under Nero, Christians were blamed for the great fire in Rome and horribly persecuted.
Similar patterns can be found in other civilizations. In Greece, the music of the young people became wild and coarse. Popular entertainment was brutal and vulgar. Promiscuity, homosexuality, and drunkenness became a daily part of life. And all moral and social restraints were lost leading to greater decadence.
In Carthage, worship turned from Baal to the earth goddess Tanit. "Sacrifices to the goddess of fertility were supposed to ensure productivity, long life, and even greater profits."Ornately carved funeral monuments depicting infant sacrifice can be seen today along with thousands of tiny stone coffins to infants sacrificed to the pagan goddess.
The parallels to our own nation are striking. No, we don't sacrifice infants to a pagan goddess, but we have aborted over 57 million babies on the altar of convenience. And various sexual practices are openly accepted as part of an alternative lifestyle.
It starts out small and continues until the society falls.
First it became acceptable to have sex out or wedlock
Then it became acceptable for couples to move in together without marriage and have children out of wedlock.
Our children are being exposed to violent video games and sex on TV
From acceptance of homosexuality it moves on to, polygamy, to sex with animals and on and on down the line.
It is a combination of all not just sex or homosexuality that leads to the society's downfall.
ANYONE who twists those FACTS into an argument about sex in any fashion does not know shit about Roman history.
the Roman empire fell for several reasons. One of them was moral and cultural decline. Others were spin offs of that anything-goes culture. They ate, drank, and screwed instead of managing the empire, paying its bills, outfitting its military, and repairing infrastructure--------------see any similarities to the USA today?
I think it was because with the rise of Christianity sales of figures of their many gods fell way off. Hey! don't laugh! It was a big industry back then.
Come to think of it one could argue that Christianity caused the fall of Rome. HMMMMMMMMmmmmm????
It's not doing a bad job of destroying the American government also.
No it's people like you who are very uninformed and know very little history.
Let's do a short quiz and we can settle the "truth in history" battle.
Do you believe ln Noah and the Ark?
Yes? or no?
I do. I believe there is historical fact to a lot of bible stories. The interpretation or reason behind those stories is up for debate however.The Roman empire did NOT fall because of homosexuality. To suggest so it patently stupid. The Roman empire was toppled because of excessive conquest & the inability to defend all territories as the armies we're spread too thin. Political corruption also was a big factor.
ANYONE who twists those FACTS into an argument about sex in any fashion does not know shit about Roman history.
the Roman empire fell for several reasons. One of them was moral and cultural decline. Others were spin offs of that anything-goes culture. They ate, drank, and screwed instead of managing the empire, paying its bills, outfitting its military, and repairing infrastructure--------------see any similarities to the USA today?
I think it was because with the rise of Christianity sales of figures of their many gods fell way off. Hey! don't laugh! It was a big industry back then.
Come to think of it one could argue that Christianity caused the fall of Rome. HMMMMMMMMmmmmm????
It's not doing a bad job of destroying the American government also.
No it's people like you who are very uninformed and know very little history.
Let's do a short quiz and we can settle the "truth in history" battle.
Do you believe ln Noah and the Ark?
Yes? or no?
For instance, I believe Jesus was a real person. I just don't believe the story of who he supposedly is or how he came to be.
I also believe there is some truth to the Ark story
Why is that surprising?I do. I believe there is historical fact to a lot of bible stories. The interpretation or reason behind those stories is up for debate however.the Roman empire fell for several reasons. One of them was moral and cultural decline. Others were spin offs of that anything-goes culture. They ate, drank, and screwed instead of managing the empire, paying its bills, outfitting its military, and repairing infrastructure--------------see any similarities to the USA today?
I think it was because with the rise of Christianity sales of figures of their many gods fell way off. Hey! don't laugh! It was a big industry back then.
Come to think of it one could argue that Christianity caused the fall of Rome. HMMMMMMMMmmmmm????
It's not doing a bad job of destroying the American government also.
No it's people like you who are very uninformed and know very little history.
Let's do a short quiz and we can settle the "truth in history" battle.
Do you believe ln Noah and the Ark?
Yes? or no?
For instance, I believe Jesus was a real person. I just don't believe the story of who he supposedly is or how he came to be.
I also believe there is some truth to the Ark story
WOW! O........K........
Reread your post. Perhaps I misread it but it seemed pretty clear to meDon't like to hear what? You have not listed or cited any evidence that homosexuality is somehow tied to the fall of Rome.I like you peach but your understanding of Roman history is very lopsided. Do you even understand the military implications of defending the territories they captured? Have you ever looked at a map of how Rome started and how big it was when the collapse began?Read post 278
I am no different than many historians who agree with me and they have Ph.D.'s
You just don't like to hear it.
And you are now gonna claim you're a historian? You're kidding right? I was the FIRST and ONLY person in this stupid thread that listed the parties involved in the fall of the Roman Empire and WHY they invaded Rome. And I certainly ain't no fucking historian
Where did I say I was a historian?
Man you really read into things that are never said.
I haven't insulted anyone. I am having a reasonable debate with you.Reread your post. Perhaps I misread it but it seemed pretty clear to meDon't like to hear what? You have not listed or cited any evidence that homosexuality is somehow tied to the fall of Rome.I like you peach but your understanding of Roman history is very lopsided. Do you even understand the military implications of defending the territories they captured? Have you ever looked at a map of how Rome started and how big it was when the collapse began?
I am no different than many historians who agree with me and they have Ph.D.'s
You just don't like to hear it.
And you are now gonna claim you're a historian? You're kidding right? I was the FIRST and ONLY person in this stupid thread that listed the parties involved in the fall of the Roman Empire and WHY they invaded Rome. And I certainly ain't no fucking historian
Where did I say I was a historian?
Man you really read into things that are never said.
yes you misread it.
I am no different than many historians who agree with me and they have Ph.D.'s is what I said.
Let me put this way. The Historians with PHD's have the same point of view with the fall of Rome, that is was their corruption and decline of their morals and principals.
The corruption of their morals and principals led to their over extensions of their military conquests and the corruption of their Emperors.
You can disagree on the corruption and moral decline, but you don't need to insult historians who have PHD's that have written about it and said that this was part of their decline and fall.
But your fellow conservatives did – by seeking to disadvantage gay Americans using the force of law.If you couldn't tell Liberace was gay then you weren't paying attention. I saw him on various TV shows when I was a kid..Ed Sullivan etc. I remember asking my parents why he dressed like that and talked like that and it was explained that he was probably a homosexual. My parents were not stupid. Neither am I.
Thinking one may be gay and openly/stating one is gay is two totally different matters. He wasn't openly gay.
I wasn't paying attention to Liberace in the 50's or 60's b/c I wasn't born until the 80's. Either way I really don't care about Liberace.
I lived a lot of life before you were born as a republican and believe it or not I managed to muddle through it without even once obsessing about homos. I knew they existed but it really wasn't my business so I didn't give it any thought.
me too. you and I did not start the homo debate that is dominating our culture.
This is a controversy you and others on the right created, an issue easily avoided had the states simply followed the Constitution and allowed same-sex couples access to marriage law.
Now the right's unwarranted animosity toward gay Americans has reached ridiculous proportions, with a republican senator proposing to 'amend' the Constitution to codify discrimination.
gays have every right that you and I have. The issue came up because the gays want special rights that apply only to them.
what Cruz has proposed would let the people of each state decide-------------how awful, how radical, how constitutional.
I haven't insulted anyone. I am having a reasonable debate with you.Reread your post. Perhaps I misread it but it seemed pretty clear to meDon't like to hear what? You have not listed or cited any evidence that homosexuality is somehow tied to the fall of Rome.I am no different than many historians who agree with me and they have Ph.D.'s
You just don't like to hear it.
And you are now gonna claim you're a historian? You're kidding right? I was the FIRST and ONLY person in this stupid thread that listed the parties involved in the fall of the Roman Empire and WHY they invaded Rome. And I certainly ain't no fucking historian
Where did I say I was a historian?
Man you really read into things that are never said.
yes you misread it.
I am no different than many historians who agree with me and they have Ph.D.'s is what I said.
Let me put this way. The Historians with PHD's have the same point of view with the fall of Rome, that is was their corruption and decline of their morals and principals.
The corruption of their morals and principals led to their over extensions of their military conquests and the corruption of their Emperors.
You can disagree on the corruption and moral decline, but you don't need to insult historians who have PHD's that have written about it and said that this was part of their decline and fall.
I am still waiting on some cited facts and not just OPINION.
I supplied the EXACT reason for the fall of the Roman Empire. Still waiting for someone to prove me wrong
How would it harm society? I see a lot of people who's sensibilities it would harm but 0 evidence for societal harmYou are obsessing about an institution that has over a 60% failure rate. That abysmal longevity stat has little if nothing to do with homosexuals. It would serve you that think it is the "foundation" of our society to work a little harder on the actual causes of it's horrible record of success.
many believe that sanctioning gay marriage would harm society, you don't believe it would. There is a difference of opinion-----------so lets put it to a vote in every state and let the will of the people prevail.
I will accept the will of the people, will you?
Immoral and Sexual deviancy has brought down many society's all though out history.
Which ones? I keep hearing people make those claims yet when we look at the 'fall' of societies- I can't think of any that did.
The Ottoman Empire? Nope- that was losing World War 1 and rise of secular forces.
The Aztec Empire? Nope- that was caused by the Spanish and the collusion of the Aztec's conquered neighbors.
The Incan Empire? Nope- see above.
The reality is that the United States is the most powerful country in the world- and we have what ancient Jews would consider an immoral society.
The societies that are the least tolerant of 'immoral and sexual deviancy'? Well that would be the repressed of Muslim societies- Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Which do you choose as the most 'moral path'? The United States or Saudi Arabia?
We are tolerant and have always been tolerant. We have never killed gays in this country like the Muslim societies.
.
Civic virtue? That seems like quite the stretch to me. Service in the emperors army was not a choice. So how exactly does Bobby sucking Joes schlong cause the Roman front lines to collapse?I haven't insulted anyone. I am having a reasonable debate with you.Reread your post. Perhaps I misread it but it seemed pretty clear to meDon't like to hear what? You have not listed or cited any evidence that homosexuality is somehow tied to the fall of Rome.
And you are now gonna claim you're a historian? You're kidding right? I was the FIRST and ONLY person in this stupid thread that listed the parties involved in the fall of the Roman Empire and WHY they invaded Rome. And I certainly ain't no fucking historian
Where did I say I was a historian?
Man you really read into things that are never said.
yes you misread it.
I am no different than many historians who agree with me and they have Ph.D.'s is what I said.
Let me put this way. The Historians with PHD's have the same point of view with the fall of Rome, that is was their corruption and decline of their morals and principals.
The corruption of their morals and principals led to their over extensions of their military conquests and the corruption of their Emperors.
You can disagree on the corruption and moral decline, but you don't need to insult historians who have PHD's that have written about it and said that this was part of their decline and fall.
I am still waiting on some cited facts and not just OPINION.
I supplied the EXACT reason for the fall of the Roman Empire. Still waiting for someone to prove me wrong
I put it up from the English historian Edward Gibbon who wrote 6 volumes on The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.
Gibbon wrote that the Roman Empire succumbed to barbarian invasions in large part due to the gradual loss of civic virtue among its citizens.
If the fags are soliciting sex in public they belong in jail right next to prostitutesHow would it harm society? I see a lot of people who's sensibilities it would harm but 0 evidence for societal harmmany believe that sanctioning gay marriage would harm society, you don't believe it would. There is a difference of opinion-----------so lets put it to a vote in every state and let the will of the people prevail.
I will accept the will of the people, will you?
Immoral and Sexual deviancy has brought down many society's all though out history.
Which ones? I keep hearing people make those claims yet when we look at the 'fall' of societies- I can't think of any that did.
The Ottoman Empire? Nope- that was losing World War 1 and rise of secular forces.
The Aztec Empire? Nope- that was caused by the Spanish and the collusion of the Aztec's conquered neighbors.
The Incan Empire? Nope- see above.
The reality is that the United States is the most powerful country in the world- and we have what ancient Jews would consider an immoral society.
The societies that are the least tolerant of 'immoral and sexual deviancy'? Well that would be the repressed of Muslim societies- Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Which do you choose as the most 'moral path'? The United States or Saudi Arabia?
We are tolerant and have always been tolerant. We have never killed gays in this country like the Muslim societies.
.
Wow- so as long as we 'don't kill gays like the Muslim societies' that is 'tolerant' to you?
Not very long ago it was illegal in much of this country for gay men to have sex. States passed laws to prevent homosexuals from employment as teachers in public schools. The State Department fired employees for being gay. The military fired decorated veterans for being gay.
Police routinely arrested homosexuals for daring to be at a nightclub- with other homosexuals. In New York police would arrest them, hold them over night, but make sure that their names were in the newspapers and notify their employers so that they would get fired.
That is what you consider as 'always been tolerant'?
The United States is now a much more tolerant country- and that is a good thing- we are moving further away from the repressive Muslim societies that outlaw homosexuality- as it used to be outlawed here.
And that is a good thing.
How would it harm society? I see a lot of people who's sensibilities it would harm but 0 evidence for societal harmYou are obsessing about an institution that has over a 60% failure rate. That abysmal longevity stat has little if nothing to do with homosexuals. It would serve you that think it is the "foundation" of our society to work a little harder on the actual causes of it's horrible record of success.
many believe that sanctioning gay marriage would harm society, you don't believe it would. There is a difference of opinion-----------so lets put it to a vote in every state and let the will of the people prevail.
I will accept the will of the people, will you?
Immoral and Sexual deviancy has brought down many society's all though out history.
Which ones? I keep hearing people make those claims yet when we look at the 'fall' of societies- I can't think of any that did.
The Ottoman Empire? Nope- that was losing World War 1 and rise of secular forces.
The Aztec Empire? Nope- that was caused by the Spanish and the collusion of the Aztec's conquered neighbors.
The Incan Empire? Nope- see above.
The reality is that the United States is the most powerful country in the world- and we have what ancient Jews would consider an immoral society.
The societies that are the least tolerant of 'immoral and sexual deviancy'? Well that would be the repressed of Muslim societies- Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Which do you choose as the most 'moral path'? The United States or Saudi Arabia?
We are tolerant and have always been tolerant. We have never killed gays in this country like the Muslim societies.
The Ottoman Empire killed Armenian Christians because of the rise of Islam and they were seen as a threat.
Aztec's over used their resources as well as the Inca's.
Have you read The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon?
Life became cheap in the latter days of the Roman Empire. Burdensome regulation and taxes made manufacturing and trade unprofitable. Families were locked into hereditary trades and vocations allowing little if any vocational choice. Eventually, children were seen as a needless burden and abortion and infanticide became commonplace. In some cases, children were sold into slavery.
Manners and social life fell into debauchery. Under Justinian, entertainment grew bawdier and more bizarre. Orgies and love feasts were common. Homosexuality and bestiality were openly practiced. Under Nero, Christians were blamed for the great fire in Rome and horribly persecuted.
Similar patterns can be found in other civilizations. In Greece, the music of the young people became wild and coarse. Popular entertainment was brutal and vulgar. Promiscuity, homosexuality, and drunkenness became a daily part of life. And all moral and social restraints were lost leading to greater decadence.
In Carthage, worship turned from Baal to the earth goddess Tanit. "Sacrifices to the goddess of fertility were supposed to ensure productivity, long life, and even greater profits."Ornately carved funeral monuments depicting infant sacrifice can be seen today along with thousands of tiny stone coffins to infants sacrificed to the pagan goddess.
The parallels to our own nation are striking. No, we don't sacrifice infants to a pagan goddess, but we have aborted over 57 million babies on the altar of convenience. And various sexual practices are openly accepted as part of an alternative lifestyle.
