student escorted out of class for not saying the pledge

[bodecea]

I have never had an issue with children reciting the pledge of allegience - particularly as part of teaching civics (is that even taught any more?)....but I do have an issue with the addition of "God" - something added long after the pledge was written, in fact - it was added under Eisenhower through pressure from the religious right as a statement against "godless communism". Allegience to a diety - which it essentially is - belongs in the realm of the churches, not public school systems. I'm picky about my dieties.

Whether you like it or not our founding fathers held God In high regard. I bet you don't have any problems with US currency.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed….."

"Whether you like it or not our founding fathers held God In high regard. I bet you don't have any problems with US currency."


our original currency (printed by our forefathers) did NOT have "one nation under god" printed on it.

that wasn't added until AFTER the civil war (thanks to the shrill shrieks of whinny conservative christians who just REFUSED to leave America alone and must have HATED our original forefathers)


Our original motto was "e pluribus unum",

it was changed AFTER the civil (thanks to the shrill shrieks of whinny conservative christians who just REFUSED to leave America alone and must have HATED our original forefathers)

Our original pledge did NOT include "under god"

that was added in the 1950's during the right wing mcarthy red scare
(thanks to the shrill shrieks of whinny conservative christians who just REFUSED to leave America alone and must have HATED our original forefathers)

so
if you really think that we should just restore things to the way our forefathers set them then you should SUPPORT the REMOVAL of all those god references.

When posters like Ollie say they support the traditions of our Founders....you know they are either lying or really ignorant of our history.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

always loved the people who force allegiance to liberty....

washingtonpost.com

They tried to suspend me for school for refusing some years back. I told them that my loyalties ae to me principles, not to any man, piece of cloth (which was made in China, btw- I'd checked), geographical area, or government.

I am not suprised

There's something funny about standing for one's principles?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Personally I believe that all American children should be required to learn the pledge. if they have any objective to actually saying it, then they should leave the room so that they do not interrupt or in any other way disrupt the rest of the class.

How ironic that the events in question took place at a school.

 

[bodecea]

always loved the people who force allegiance to liberty....

washingtonpost.com

Allegiance to one's country should not be forced, but it should be expected. Anyone not pledging allegiance should be bitchslapped and sent to Git'mo. IMO

Allegiance to a flag or country should not be 'expected'. Should those born in the CCCP, NAZI Germany, or Rwanda be 'expected' to to be all gung ho about their homeland?

Loyalties and allegiances should be to principles and should be to a nation only insomuch as that nation stands for those principles.

I'm sure the Crown would have appreciated your sentiments, Tory.

I'm sure that when Lonestar Secesh gets his wish and Texas becomes an independent republic again (*snicker), the first order of business will be to pass a law FORCING people to swear daily allegiance to the Lone Star Flag...or else be lynched.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

The issue isn't the child, it's the scumbag parents.

If they have an issue with living in this country the door is that way -------------------------------------->

Really?

Sorry I have to disagree with your jump from child not saying the pledge to parents hating the country.

As we do not have the parents reasons for "allowing" the behavior I would tread lightly on the assumptions.

CMike there was a society that thought the way that you did though (the indoctrination of children from birth for their fatherland).

I don't believe that the USA requiring children to learn and/or say the pledge can be compared to Nazi Germany.

"I promise to do my duty in love and loyalty to the Führer and our flag."

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/hitleryouth/hj-timeline.htm
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/jufeier.htm

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Freedom from religion is not one of our rightss in the constitution.

Maybe this should be a separate thread; What I see in the flag is a symbol of the freedoms that Americans have fought, bled, and died for for over 200 years. Of course i do not expect others to agree with that.

"Freedom from religion is not one of our rightss in the constitution."


you really do hate freedom, don't you....

I mean....you HATE the freedom to NOT be forced to recite indoctrinational mantras

and you HATE the freedom to NOT be free from religion


well
sorry to tell you this
and it will, i'm sure, cause you to flail your arms and shriek in anger

but freedom OF religion DOES INCLUDE freedom FROM religion

you have the freedom to believe any religious mumbo jumbo you want to

and I have the freedom to consider it all nonsense

btw..
(you won't understand this)

but a pledge of allegiance to America should NOT include ANY religious connections or references.

the pledge should be a pledge to the COUNTRY (as the original pledge was written)
and NOT a pledge to any god

religious references in the pledge are unconstitutional

and just plain wrong

So then hire a lawyer and sue the government. Its a damned shame that so many idiots get upset over something so simple as 2 little words. If they mean nothing to you then why be upset. Everytime i see the word God in print I take it to mean God as I see it. Not the way you or anyone else does. Try it sometime. It's also called respect for others. And don't even think about telling me I hate freedom ever again, I'll allow you to get by with that this time.

Would you say the same thing if it said 'Allah Akbar'?

Somehow, I doubt it.

 

[HUGGY]

always loved the people who force allegiance to liberty....

washingtonpost.com

Allegiance to one's country should not be forced, but it should be expected. Anyone not pledging allegiance should be bitchslapped and sent to Git'mo. IMO

Really...and I suppose you would be doin the bitchslappin? Is that what happened to you in prison? Did they make you dress up in your cute little cowboy outfit and ride you hard and put you away wet?

You aren't even a respectable bully. There is much to question about our country from the genocide of the millions of native americans...the theft of thier land... just to start with. There is also much to love..but that is for an american to discover for themself ...not for an asshole like you to bitchslap them into recognizing.

 

[bodecea]

always loved the people who force allegiance to liberty....

washingtonpost.com

Allegiance to one's country should not be forced, but it should be expected. Anyone not pledging allegiance should be bitchslapped and sent to Git'mo. IMO

Really...and I suppose you would be doin the bitchslappin? Is that what happened to you in prison? Did they make you dress up in your cute little cowboy outfit and ride you hard and put you away wet?

You aren't even a respectable bully. There is much to question about our country from the genocide of the millions of native americans...the theft of thier land... just to start with. There is also much to love..but that is for an american to discover for themself ...not for an asshole like you to bitchslap them into recognizing.

Psst! 8th Grade Education.

 

[uscitizen]

Well I guess many 8th grade right wingers are legal adults?

 

[Mr Natural]

Last time I was in the 8th grade was 1963 and if you didn't stand a recite the pledge, you were in a heap of trouble.

 

[uscitizen]

Last time I was in the 8th grade was 1963 and if you didn't stand a recite the pledge, you were in a heap of trouble.

Yeah but the flags were made in the USA then.

 

[chanel]

I made this mistake a few years ago when I wrote up a disciplinary referral on a kid who refused to stand. I knew they didn't have to say the Pledge, but I thought they still had to stand like people do in stadiums. I was wrong. But the kid wasn't making a political statement. He was just too lazy. (He's in jail now)

I would guess that many teachers are unaware of this law. On account of it being so asinine. Kids must sit when you tell them. They just don't have to stand.

Isn't one of the purposes of a free public education is to foster patriotism and civic duty?

Overkill in this case, but not worthy of a fucking lawsuit (which I assume is coming)

 

[bodecea]

Last time I was in the 8th grade was 1963 and if you didn't stand a recite the pledge, you were in a heap of trouble.

Even tho you had the law on your side....

 

[uscitizen]

Last time I was in the 8th grade was 1963 and if you didn't stand a recite the pledge, you were in a heap of trouble.

Even tho you had the law on your side....

Heck they still used paddles back then. Heat fer the seat!

 

[☭proletarian☭]

I made this mistake a few years ago when I wrote up a disciplinary referral on a kid who refused to stand. I knew they didn't have to say the Pledge, but I thought they still had to stand like people do in stadiums. I was wrong. But the kid wasn't making a political statement. He was just too lazy. (He's in jail now)

For something entirely unrelated, yes?

Isn't one of the purposes of a free public education is to foster patriotism and civic duty?

No. It's to educate. If the system is worth preserving, then educated men and women will understand that and preserve it, just as they will destroy any system worth destroying (see the CCCP, the Articles of Confederation, or the LoN).

 

[Mr Natural]

Last time I was in the 8th grade was 1963 and if you didn't stand a recite the pledge, you were in a heap of trouble.

Yeah but the flags were made in the USA then.

American made American flags.

What a unique idea.

 

[del]

To start. It is wrong for the teacher to remove a student for not reciting the Pledge. A much better way to handle that situation is to spend 15 minutes at the beginning of every class that week teaching the students what the pledge means and what part of our government guarantees them the right to remain silent during the pledge.

Now, you say people can decide fro themselves where their loyalties lie and I would normally agree with that. Except that you are talking about government run schools and the organs that teach our children teach them that America is not a good country. That America has no value. That we should not be proud of America or what America stands for.

So tell Me. How do those of us who actually love this country combat that if you think we shouldn't force our kids to do things like recite the pledge or sing the national anthem at events or fly a flag in the classroom?

are you familiar with the concept of freedom of speech? do you think you can force someone to love something or someone?

imo, if you love this country and what it stands for, the idea of the govt, in this case the schools, forcing someone to speak or act in a way they do not wish to is anathema.

my kids never came home from school telling me how much they hate america, so i reject the notion that schools inculcate our kids to hate our country.

Perhaps you missed the first part of My post. And I'll clarify that last sentence since I failed to actually say what I mean.

I think that they should be forced to remain in a class that has students reciting the Pledge and that they should be removed from the class if they disrupt that recital.

Better for you?

As for your kids not coming home hating America. It doesn't work that way and you know it. It is a subtle indoctrination that leads to people believing much like the people on this forum believe.

I can start a thread on one single great thing America has done and I'll bet you that I will get a majority of replies from the left and each one of them will be a spouting of all that America has done wrong with no acknowledgment of the original praise.

It happens without fail and it happens because people are infected with the belief that one bad act by this country cancels out the thousands of good acts that we do.

That is what needs to be fought.

And one last thing.

I grew up in an era where reciting the Pledge was mandatory. Many of those I grew up with (who survived growing up) tend to be liberal and guess what. It has not harmed them one little bit.

In fact, those who mocked the pledge grew up to be some of the most self-centered liberals I have ever known. Perhaps that is where their ideology comes from. I don't have to be taught any loyalty to anything but i don't want to appear selfish so I'll take other peoples money to help those who are unfortunate. I certainly won't be using my hard earned dollars.

thanks for the clarification, that is better.

i didn't miss the first part of your post-i completely agree with your first paragraph.

where i think you go completely off the rails is with this notion of children being indoctrinated to hate america in the public schools, subtly or otherwise. are there instances of individual teachers criticizing america? i have no doubt of that, but from what you've posted i infer that you believe this indoctrination to be widespread, systemic in nature and by deliberate intent.
if you choose to believe that, you're welcome to it, but i think you do a disservice to the 99.9999% of our teachers and school systems that don't engage in this behavior.

you might also wish to reconsider the relationship between what's posted on this or any other message board and real life behaviors.

 

[CMike]

Really?

Sorry I have to disagree with your jump from child not saying the pledge to parents hating the country.

As we do not have the parents reasons for "allowing" the behavior I would tread lightly on the assumptions.

CMike there was a society that thought the way that you did though (the indoctrination of children from birth for their fatherland).

I don't believe that the USA requiring children to learn and/or say the pledge can be compared to Nazi Germany.

"I promise to do my duty in love and loyalty to the Führer and our flag."

The History Place - Hitler Youth
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/jufeier.htm

What a douche bag.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Being called names by someone who advocates tyranny and opposes the principles upon which this nation and all great societies are built is a compliment.

 

[Bill O'Olberman]

Isn't one of the purposes of a free public education is to foster patriotism and civic duty?

But patriotism and civic duty through compulsion? But seriously you're talking about school kids in homeroom where the level of apathy goes unrivaled. I think teaching the civic and historical importance of the pledge is much more important than kids just mindlessly saying it everyday cause they're just supposed to.

Also, I dont see how you can support a free society yet believe those who refuse to say the pledge should be punished.