Stem cell research

[Sandy73]

Originally posted by dilloduck
Stem cell research does NOT require that an embryo die.

But this is where it is controversal to me and for most people..

 

[proud_savagette]

1 I don't already have eternal life? 2 I really want eternal life?

"And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read?" And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul and with all you strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have answered right; do this, and you will live." (Luke 10: 25-28)
"Truly , truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God " (John 3: 5) "After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there He remained with them and baptized" (John 3:22) "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him." (John 3: 36)
"Do you suppose, then, that you will escape judgment, you who condemn these things in others yet do them yourselves? . . . Do you not know that God's kindness [and forbearance] is an invitation to you to repent? In spite of this, your hard and impenitent heart is storing up retribution for the day of wrath when the just judgment of God will be revealed, when he will repay every man for what he has done: eternal life to those who strive for glory, honor, and immortality by patiently doing right; wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness."
(Romans 2: 3-10)

 

[dilloduck]

Originally posted by Sandy73
But this is where it is controversal to me and for most people..

This what I'm am becoming aware of. If people would realize that stem cells can be obtained in a way that does NOT harm a fetus or embryo then perhaps this research would not be so controversial . It seems a crime to me to not use our talents to heal . Even the beginning of stem cell research seems to frighten people. Slippery slope? Perhaps but there are over 40,000 embryros out there frozen and destined for destruction in addition to the other methods of obtaining them. If your best friend could walk as a result of this research would you be for it?

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by Sandy73
But this is where it is controversal to me and for most people..

And that's fair. That's fair contreversy and I can appreciate that point of view completely. However the technology itself does not need to be scrapped because of it. There are other sources of stem cells.

 

[dilloduck]

Originally posted by proud_savagette
"And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read?" And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul and with all you strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have answered right; do this, and you will live." (Luke 10: 25-28)
"Truly , truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God " (John 3: 5) "After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there He remained with them and baptized" (John 3:22) "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him." (John 3: 36)
"Do you suppose, then, that you will escape judgment, you who condemn these things in others yet do them yourselves? . . . Do you not know that God's kindness [and forbearance] is an invitation to you to repent? In spite of this, your hard and impenitent heart is storing up retribution for the day of wrath when the just judgment of God will be revealed, when he will repay every man for what he has done: eternal life to those who strive for glory, honor, and immortality by patiently doing right; wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness."
(Romans 2: 3-10)

eternal life to those who strive for glory, honor, and immortality by patiently doing right;


I'm still not sure about the immortality thing but I love the fact that it will be given to me if I patiently do right

 

[Sandy73]

Hell yes, I agree ! I do not object to what you are stating... I think that should be mandatory on the disposal basis !

 

[dilloduck]

Originally posted by Sandy73
Hell yes, I agree ! I do not object to what you are stating... I think that should be mandatory on the disposal basis !

Common sense and morality it would seem would give this idea 2 thumbs up. I'm getting to think that some people oppose it on religious reasons but I can't find out what those reasons are. Science becoming "godlike" perhaps? We've been through that one for centuries.

 

[Sandy73]

Well the idea is to save lives not take them so I think it is a good thing also.. We also have the knowledge that God gave us to benefit our lives here on earth so why should it be a religious problem ? That just my thoughts about it. :cof:

 

[dilloduck]

Originally posted by Sandy73
Well the idea is to save lives not take them so I think it is a good thing also.. We also have the knowledge that God gave us to benefit our lives here on earth so why should it be a religious problem ? That just my thoughts about it. :cof:

Mine too---naturally it will be a political issue--If Kerry comes out for it, Bush has some real thinking (or polling) to do.

 

[Sandy73]

Kerry is for ending lives not saving them ! :teeth:

Sorry I had to say it !!

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by dilloduck
letting Him into my life is a bit vague and how do I know that

1 I don't already have eternal life?

2 I really want eternal life?

This response shows that your ego will not accept any response accept what you already know.

Discussing anything Biblical is obviously falling on deaf ears.

You couldn't even answer the question.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Sandy73
Here is my feelings on the issue for what it is worth... I feel strongly that abortion is WRONG ! I also believe that if the law insist on making this proceedure legal why should we give little to no respect to the unborn ?

Since abortion is legal why not bring some good of this situation .. At least a trial bases to see the good that could come of stem cell.. So if abortion is Legal to end a life, why should it be illegal to save one ?

The point that you bring up is that if the law allows something immoral, it is ok to do something immoral in return to get good out of it.

The point is that if abortion is looked at as a way to harvest these cells --IN ANY WAY, it will keep abortion legal.

The only moral thing to do in the case of having alternative options available is to USE THE ALTERNATIVES.

-Otherwise you are perpetuating the problem instead of solving it.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by dilloduck
Stem cell research does NOT require that an embryo die.

Taking cells from umbilical cord blood fits that bill, but that isn't how it is done most of the time, is it?

 

[Sandy73]

Originally posted by NewGuy
The point that you bring up is that if the law allows something immoral, it is ok to do something immoral in return to get good out of it.

The point is that if abortion is looked at as a way to harvest these cells --IN ANY WAY, it will keep abortion legal.

The only moral thing to do in the case of having alternative options available is to USE THE ALTERNATIVES.

-Otherwise you are perpetuating the problem instead of solving it.

NG I have thought about that ... What if the law is overturned but what are the chances of that? Of course I believe abortion is wrong and immoral but it is like I stated earlier I would like some good come of a situation that the Liberals themselves will never end !

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Sandy73
NG I have thought about that ... What if the law is overturned but what are the chances of that? Of course I believe abortion is wrong and immoral but it is like I stated earlier I would like some good come of a situation that the Liberals themselves will never end !

I understand but you arethen faced with a question that haunts you the rest of your life considering the details of this issue:

Does perpetuating the problem (in order to do good) get you off the hook for making an immoral choice?

As a parent, what would you say?

Compromise is evil when it comes to morality and it destroys the conscience.

 

[Sandy73]

Ok let me clarify myself I believe that the abortion decision should be left to the citizens of the country to vote on.. My vote would be NO abortion therefore the stem cell problem would be solved on the unborn side ! I would rather have the procedure illegal and we would not have the option of aborted fetuses for stem cell... At this point it is legal and I would like to see some good come of this horrible act !

 

[Mustafa]

Originally posted by Sandy73

Ok let me clarify myself I believe that the abortion decision should be left to the citizens of the country to vote on.. My vote would be NO abortion therefore the stem cell problem would be solved on the unborn side ! I would rather have the procedure illegal and we would not have the option of aborted fetuses for stem cell... At this point it is legal and I would like to see some good come of this horrible act !

Abortive zygote stem cells are not the issue. Artificial implantation of a sperm into an egg in a petri dish can result in the formation of a group of cells dividing. (Biblically this is the gathering of the dust of the earth)

These 32 or so cells also have primal stem cells that later change these few cells into organs, bones, brain, eye ball, finger nail, hair, teeth and all the other parts that make up the unborn that have not taken their first breath and only then to receive the life force or soul.

There is a tumor of the unfertilized human female ova that begins to form a 'dermoid cyst' which grows large and contains small pieces of things like a tooth, thyroid tissue, and eyeball or a piece of bone.

These tumors never become babies in the future but many would like to consider this tumors having life.

Abortion without purpose is wrong but many early developing zygotes are expelled from the woman's body naturally and are just flushed down the toilet.

These could be used to get those now important stem cells.

Too many people consider themselves wiser the G-d and pronounce that they alone know when the living soul or life comes to that dust which is being used to create an eventual being.

 

[proud_savagette]

Too many people consider themselves wiser the G-d and pronounce that they alone know when the living soul or life comes to that dust which is being used to create an eventual being.

Right. Let's take a look at what God says in the bible, shall we?
"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before
thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I
ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5
KJV)


"I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from
my mother's belly." (Psalms 22:10 KJV)


"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as
soon as they be born, speaking lies." (Psalms 58:3 KJV)


"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my
mother's womb." (Psalms 139:13 KJV)


"Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from
that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that
thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called
a transgressor from the womb." (Isaiah 48:8 KJV)


Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far;
The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the
bowels (insides) of my mother hath he made mention of
my name." (Isaiah 49:1 KJV)


"He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his
strength he had power with God:" (Hosea 12:3 KJV)


"For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall
drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be
filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."
(Luke 1:15 KJV)


"And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the
salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and
Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:" (Luke 1:41 KJV)


"For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in
mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy."
(Luke 1:44 KJV)

So we can see from Scripture that a separate, unique human life exists in the womb, before birth. Also, if we consult science on this question, we find unanimous agreement that the baby is alive before birth. It does not miraculously spring to life just as it is born.
During earliest pregnancy, before the first heartbeat, there is no flesh, just cells. There is no blood, just clear cellular fluid. But there is life. There are cells, and the cells are alive. Are these the cells of the mother? No. Their DNA is not hers. Are they the cells of the father? No. Their DNA is not his. They have their own unique cellular identity, apart from either the mother or the father.
So this, then, is the moment at which life begins: the moment of conception, when the father's cell and the mother's cell unite to form a distict new cell, different from both father and mother.

 

[Mustafa]

Originally posted by proud_savagette

Right. Let's take a look at what God says in the bible, shall we?

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before
thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I
ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5
(KJV)
"I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from
my mother's belly." (Psalms 22:10 KJV)
"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my
mother's womb." (Psalms 139:13 KJV)
"Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from
that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that
thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called
a transgressor from the womb." (Isaiah 48:8 KJV)
Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far;
The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the
bowels (insides) of my mother hath he made mention of
my name." (Isaiah 49:1 KJV)
"He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his
strength he had power with God:" (Hosea 12:3 KJV)
"For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall
drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be
filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."
(Luke 1:15 KJV)
"And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and
Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:" (Luke 1:41 KJV)
"For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy." (Luke 1:44 KJV)
So we can see from Scripture that a separate, unique human life exists in the womb, before birth. Also, if we consult science on this question, we find unanimous agreement that the baby is alive before birth. It does not miraculously spring to life just as it is born.
During earliest pregnancy, before the first heartbeat, there is no flesh, just cells. There is no blood, just clear cellular fluid. But there is life. There are cells, and the cells are alive. Are these the cells of the mother? No. Their DNA is not hers. Are they the cells of the father? No. Their DNA is not his. They have their own unique cellular identity, apart from either the mother or the father.
So this, then, is the moment at which life begins: the moment of conception, when the father's cell and the mother's cell unite to form a distict new cell, different from both father and mother.

Great try Savagette but you know not what you are talking about. You are obviously a literalist and speak of words and meanings that are only metaphors.

Take for examply one of your Biblical quotes written in a different language than English but translated with meaning only to the reader.

"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." (Psalms 58:3 KJV)

Why do you think that this Pslam verse or any other of your copied Biblical verses actually says that a human life (human soul) is placed into the forming foetus? Not one says this fact directly but you wish to allude to that which is not said by the L-rd G-d.

Then take a look at this Exodus verse.

Genesis 2:7

And the L-RD G-d formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and (only then) man became a living soul.

This (not prophets, pslams or NT) Exodus verse also is truly an allegory or metaphor which unlike your prophets, psalms or New Testament quotes speaks very directly to the point. It seems that G-d meant the understanding to be that all men and women were created from the dust of the earth. That from Adam to everyone of us today is a continuous line of that first human creation and the exact time when the body becomes a life form. Embryos move and have a heart beat while forming in the womb but so do chickens and earth worms. They are alive but do they also have that life force which mankind obtains as a gift from the Creator?

Meaning as understood by most:

But only after G-d formed man from the dust of the earth that we now know is formed from Earth's elements in the womb of all women but do not have life until they recieve the first breath of life (from the Creator) after they are delivered from the woman.

This interpretation like yours is based on belief of the words and in my case can read the original words in the language it was written in which is Hebrew.

Mankind through all the ages did not have the knowledge of embryology and genetics, so the Bible was written for all mankind to understand these allegorical concepts each in their own times.

For you and me to say that human life begins at conception or during the formation of that dust in the womb into a future human being is egocentric and without trying to understand what G-d actually meant about LIFE.....

 

[proud_savagette]

then why does God say that He knew us before we were born?