Stem cell research

[dilloduck]

Originally posted by NewGuy
This response shows that your ego will not accept any response accept what you already know.

Discussing anything Biblical is obviously falling on deaf ears.

You couldn't even answer the question.

My original post was a question and I have accepted some of the answers so your wrong there.

My hearing is quite good ! You just expect everyone to buy YOUR interpretation. YOUR ego will not accept any respose that is contrary to what you believe.

I will be glad to answer the question when you can explain it to me.

 

[Mustafa]

Originally posted by proud_savagette

then why does God say that He knew us before we were born?

What if I told you that I know the answer to that one.

Do you think that a human life essence or soul is made suddenly at conception?

Not at all, the Creator makes all human life and their living souls. He knows each soul before they are even concieved and not one single egg or sperm has yet met.

He knows each soul in what many consider His room of souls where each one is drawn and placed in the nostrils of a newly delivered baby after it first comes out of the birth canal.

There is also an old belief about that little cleft just below your nose that everybody seems to have but most simply ignore it.

If you want to know why G-d put it there, just ask.

 

[brneyedgrl80]

I was always told the the Angel Gabriel put that little cleft on a person.

What's the story/reason behind it?

 

[dilloduck]

guess it was easier than I thought to solve the "when does life begin" question. It's starts when the baby is delivered. I assume God wouldn't put a soul that he knew so well into a --- a ---- whatever ya call it.

 

[Mustafa]

Originally posted by dilloduck

guess it was easier than I thought to solve the "when does life begin" question. It's starts when the baby is delivered. I assume God wouldn't put a soul that he knew so well into a --- a ---- whatever ya call it.

Well let's not concede that there is anything more to human life than that found in a palm tree or a virus or even a sub-atomic particle.

This illogical concept of human life originated from some source? What do you think makes you any different than a slug?

Okay dilloduck you tell me what is life and who created the concept of same in the psyche of men?

 

[Avatar4321]

Originally posted by proud_savagette
Right. Let's take a look at what God says in the bible, shall we?

So we can see from Scripture that a separate, unique human life exists in the womb, before birth. Also, if we consult science on this question, we find unanimous agreement that the baby is alive before birth. It does not miraculously spring to life just as it is born.
During earliest pregnancy, before the first heartbeat, there is no flesh, just cells. There is no blood, just clear cellular fluid. But there is life. There are cells, and the cells are alive. Are these the cells of the mother? No. Their DNA is not hers. Are they the cells of the father? No. Their DNA is not his. They have their own unique cellular identity, apart from either the mother or the father.
So this, then, is the moment at which life begins: the moment of conception, when the father's cell and the mother's cell unite to form a distict new cell, different from both father and mother.

Great verses. I always liked this scripture:

"1 AND as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?" John 9:1-2

Interesting implications if you think about it. Obviously the disciples had an idea that men could sin before they were born. Interesting to ponder.

 

[Avatar4321]

Originally posted by Mustafa
What if I told you that I know the answer to that one.

Do you think that a human life essence or soul is made suddenly at conception?

Not at all, the Creator makes all human life and their living souls. He knows each soul before they are even concieved and not one single egg or sperm has yet met.

He knows each soul in what many consider His room of souls where each one is drawn and placed in the nostrils of a newly delivered baby after it first comes out of the birth canal.

There is also an old belief about that little cleft just below your nose that everybody seems to have but most simply ignore it.

If you want to know why G-d put it there, just ask.

He knows us because we lived before we were born. We are Eternal Beings, in the image of God. We have no beginning and have no end. if we had a beginning we would have an end, but we dont. This mortal life has a beginning. It also has an end. But we have and always will exist. We are in a part of our eternal lief where we need to grow. Thankfully the Savior has given us a way.

 

[Mustafa]

Originally posted by Avatar4321

He knows us because we lived before we were born. We are Eternal Beings, in the image of God. We have no beginning and have no end. if we had a beginning we would have an end, but we dont. This mortal life has a beginning. It also has an end. But we have and always will exist. We are in a part of our eternal lief where we need to grow. Thankfully the Savior has given us a way.

Thank you very much for you have just proved my point. The (life or soul) is eternal and therefore cannot be destroyed by any abortion. Jesus Christ, savior extrodinare, was also born of a human woman. Ergo, his life force or soul was also formed by the Creator.

But there is life. There are cells, and the cells are alive. Are these the cells of the mother? No. Their DNA is not hers. Are they the cells of the father? No. Their DNA is not his. They have their own unique cellular identity, apart from either the mother or the father. So this, then, is the moment at which life begins: the moment of conception, when the father's cell and the mother's cell unite to form a distict new cell, different from both father and mother.

Cellular Identity
DNA not either of the parents
ERGO

YOU BELIEVE THIS IS THE MOMENT THAT LIFE BEGINS

Are you the Creator G-d of the universe?

If you are so all knowing why do you deny your own words in Genesis (only AFTER the body was formed and born into the world did the LIFE - SOUL breathed into the nostrils) then you lied in your own Bible.

I love to hear the egocentric claim to godship you claim to know that your retranslated versions of the Old Testament and a Jesus saying about a blind child beng born is some kind of proof.

Those who appose abortion are double murderers as times will return when women will seek illegal alley abortions and both the mother and baby will be no more. Then you who appose the moral choice of individuals will be guilty of MURDER and will suffer the penalty of a LIFE FOR A LIFE...

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by Avatar4321
He knows us because we lived before we were born. We are Eternal Beings, in the image of God. We have no beginning and have no end. if we had a beginning we would have an end, but we dont. This mortal life has a beginning. It also has an end. But we have and always will exist. We are in a part of our eternal lief where we need to grow. Thankfully the Savior has given us a way.

I don't know where you get your Scriptural proof of this. While the Bible states that God knew us before we were born, and that He formed us in our mothers' wombs, it does not say that we ourselves are eternal - the Bible only claims that God has no beginning. God calls Himself "I AM" (Exodus 3:13-14), as does Jesus, by stating that "before Abraham was, I AM." (John 8:58). By saying this, God stakes the claim that He Himself was not created, but is the Creator. In constrast, Jesus is credited with creating all things (Colossians 1:16), including our lives.

 

[proud_savagette]

While the Bible states that God knew us before we were born, and that He formed us in our mothers' wombs, it does not say that we ourselves are eternal - the Bible only claims that God has no beginning.

Here's some proof for you.
"Many that sleep in the dust shall awake to everlasting life." Daniel 12:2
"When the Son of Man comes in HIs glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit upon His glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before Him. And He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left. Then the King will say to those on His right, "Come you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed Me, naked and you clothed Me, ill and you cared for Me, in prison and you visited Me." Then the righteous will answer Him and say, 'Lord, when did we see You a stranger and welcome You, or naked and clothe You? When did we see You ill or in prison, and visit You?' And the King will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of Mine, you did for Me.' Then He will say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, a stranger and you gave Me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for Me.' Then they will answer and say, "Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to Your needs?" He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for Me.' And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. ~Matthew 25: 31-46

 

[dilloduck]

Pick a verse--any verse ---twist-turn-interpret. It proves nothing.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by proud_savagette
Here's some proof for you.
Daniel 12:2
Matthew 25: 31-46

savagette, I don't think those two verses prove that we humans are eternal beings, i.e. that we existed eteranlly in the past and that we will exist eternally in the future, and that we have no beginning.

These passages, along with many others, reference eternal life. Indeed, eternal life, in God's presence, is the promise of those who receive slavation through Jesus Christ. But if you'll notice, eternal life is always something mentioned as a future event. Nowhere in the Bible is it ever assumed that we existed in heaven or anywhere else before our births.

 

[Mustafa]

Originally posted by gop_jeff

savagette, I don't think those two verses prove that we humans are eternal beings, i.e. that we existed eteranlly in the past and that we will exist eternally in the future, and that we have no beginning.

Nowhere in the Bible is it ever assumed that we existed in heaven or anywhere else before our births.

Unfortunately you are wrong in this statement. In Genesis 1:26 you can read where G-d and the angels He created made man in His image long, long before He Created mankind. (Man = you and I He created on the sixty day of creation. Ergo G-d says that all men were created before even the first birth of man.

EXODUS 1:26

G-d said, 'Let us make man with our image and likeness. Let him dominate the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the livestock animals, and all the earth - and every land animal that walks the earth.'

EXODUS 1:31

1:31 G-d saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. It was evening and it was morning, the sixth day.

So if you believe in the Bible your assessment of man not existing before being formed in the woman is INCORRECT.

The following hebrew verse is clear if you can read it. It says 'man' indicating the plural all of mankind......

 

[5stringJeff]

I see that God (not the angels; the "us" in that verse refers to the Trinity) created two people, Adam and Eve, through His supernatural creative powers. But nowhere does it say that God created all of mankind; it just says "man." That would be like saying that God created very animal and plant that would ever live during the six days of creation, and they are all just waiting in heaven to be born, like one giant nursery/zoo combination. Sorry, but you are wrong.

 

[Avatar4321]

How can we obtain Eternal Life if we are not Eternal?

 

[Avatar4321]

BTW. if anyone honestly thinks the fact that we are Eternal beings justifiesi the murder of a child, that person has serious problems.

 

[Mustafa]

Originally posted by gop_jeff

I see that God (not the angels; the "us" in that verse refers to the Trinity) created two people, Adam and Eve, through His supernatural creative powers.

So YOU SEE that G-d was a trinity of three godheads that created man? Did G-d say let us, Jesus, Mary and the Holy Ghost, or us three godheads to make man? No..... WHY DID G-D FORGET TO MENTION THEM BY NAME?

"Let us make man?" Who is G-d talking to? Does G-d need help? There are many explanations of this verse, but even Jesus himself a Jew knew from the learnings in his synagogue the understanding: “G-d consulted with the angels… Did Jesus claim that he was either consulted or assisted in the creation of man in the New Testament gospel? Even though the angels did not assist G-d in the creation of man, and [by speaking this way] G-d allows heretics to make their claims [that there is more than one G-d], nevertheless, the Old Testament did not refrain from teaching us proper behavior and humility. [G-d’s actions teaches us] that the greater one is he should consult with and receive permission from the lesser ones” Talmud(Sanhedrin 38b).

Let’s try to understand what’s happening here. The stage is set, it is the final day of creation, and G-d is ready for His greatest act. He is ready to create man. And G-d says, “Let us create man.” Why “us”? Not because some insecure angels want to feel needed, but because man needs to learn humility.

We should appreciate the supreme self-sacrifice here on G-d’s part. There is no principle closer to G-d’s Heart than His unity. G-d’s unity is the prime concept of the Old Testament's central theme, it is the first of the Ten Commandments, and the most fundamental statement of Judaism is: “Here O Israel, G-d is our Lord, G-d is One”. If there is one thing that G-d wants us to know, it is that He is One. But G-d is ready to compromise His own agenda. Apparently, in the process of teaching us humility, G-d models for us a true expression of humility.

In the act of creating man, G-d controls and even surrenders His desire for the recognition of His unity. He sacrifices His own need on the alter of a higher cause. Through the use of the words “Let us make man” G-d twists this act of creation into an act of selflessness. This has tremendous implications.

Then in the first next verse in Genesis 1, it was not Jesus, Mary or the Holy Ghost who made man.

Genesis 1

27 So G-d created man in His own image, in the image of G-d created He him; male and female created He them.

Why not us again in this verse. Because there is only One G-d who consulted with His other angel creations.

But nowhere does it say that God created all of mankind; it just says "man." That would be like saying that God created very animal and plant that would ever live during the six days of creation, and they are all just waiting in heaven to be born, like one giant nursery/zoo combination. Sorry, but you are wrong.

Did the verse say that G-d created a man on the sixth day? Did G-d say the He created the the man Adam on that day? If you will look past your personal beliefs you will see that the word "man" is also a plural word used many time through out the bible. If you have a FISH in your fishbowl, you may ask how man FISH are in the sea?

How is it that you question whether or not G-d created every animal and plant that would ever be during His second day of creation of the universe? Do you have some special knowledge of G-d's abilities?

Your answers are very superficial and obvious in that you claim some kind of special knowledge of G-d to prove that the unknowable timeless Creator had a defecating human son, out of wedlock, that supercedes the Father of us all.

No You Are Wrong.......

 

[Mustafa]

Originally posted by Avatar4321


How can we obtain Eternal Life if we are not Eternal?
BTW. if anyone honestly thinks the fact that we are Eternal beings justifiesi the murder of a child, that person has serious problems.

How can you OBTAIN something that you already have? If the dust of the earth is being formed into a receptacle in which the breath of the Creator is placed into the nostrils of this forming dust based receptacle, how can you kill something that does not yet have that part of G-d which is not yet within it?

You like so many others think or believe they know that the unborn receptacle has life or a soul within it. Funny, Jesus didn't say one word on the subject even though abortions were common in his own community when he was alive. He didn't say that killing the unborn was a sin. DID HE?

 

[dilloduck]

Originally posted by Mustafa
So YOU SEE that G-d was a trinity of three godheads that created man? Did G-d say let us, Jesus, Mary and the Holy Ghost, or us three godheads to make man? No..... WHY DID G-D FORGET TO MENTION THEM BY NAME?

"Let us make man?" Who is G-d talking to? Does G-d need help? There are many explanations of this verse, but even Jesus himself a Jew knew from the learnings in his synagogue the understanding: “G-d consulted with the angels… Did Jesus claim that he was either consulted or assisted in the creation of man in the New Testament gospel? Even though the angels did not assist G-d in the creation of man, and [by speaking this way] G-d allows heretics to make their claims [that there is more than one G-d], nevertheless, the Old Testament did not refrain from teaching us proper behavior and humility. [G-d’s actions teaches us] that the greater one is he should consult with and receive permission from the lesser ones” Talmud(Sanhedrin 38b).

Let’s try to understand what’s happening here. The stage is set, it is the final day of creation, and G-d is ready for His greatest act. He is ready to create man. And G-d says, “Let us create man.” Why “us”? Not because some insecure angels want to feel needed, but because man needs to learn humility.

We should appreciate the supreme self-sacrifice here on G-d’s part. There is no principle closer to G-d’s Heart than His unity. G-d’s unity is the prime concept of the Old Testament's central theme, it is the first of the Ten Commandments, and the most fundamental statement of Judaism is: “Here O Israel, G-d is our Lord, G-d is One”. If there is one thing that G-d wants us to know, it is that He is One. But G-d is ready to compromise His own agenda. Apparently, in the process of teaching us humility, G-d models for us a true expression of humility.

In the act of creating man, G-d controls and even surrenders His desire for the recognition of His unity. He sacrifices His own need on the alter of a higher cause. Through the use of the words “Let us make man” G-d twists this act of creation into an act of selflessness. This has tremendous implications.

Then in the first next verse in Genesis 1, it was not Jesus, Mary or the Holy Ghost who made man.



Why not us again in this verse. Because there is only One G-d who consulted with His other angel creations.

But nowhere does it say that God created all of mankind; it just says "man." That would be like saying that God created very animal and plant that would ever live during the six days of creation, and they are all just waiting in heaven to be born, like one giant nursery/zoo combination. Sorry, but you are wrong.

Did the verse say that G-d created a man on the sixth day? Did G-d say the He created the the man Adam on that day? If you will look past your personal beliefs you will see that the word "man" is also a plural word used many time through out the bible. If you have a FISH in your fishbowl, you may ask how man FISH are in the sea?

How is it that you question whether or not G-d created every animal and plant that would ever be during His second day of creation of the universe? Do you have some special knowledge of G-d's abilities?

Your answers are very superficial and obvious in that you claim some kind of special knowledge of G-d to prove that the unknowable timeless Creator had a defecating human son, out of wedlock, that supercedes the Father of us all.

No You Are Wrong.......

Help me out here----God sacrificed his "unity" to create man because man needed to be taught humility? What is the "higher" cause he made this sacrifice for?

 

[Mustafa]

Originally posted by dilloduck

Help me out here----God sacrificed his "unity" to create man because man needed to be taught humility? What is the "higher" cause he made this sacrifice for?

Dilloduck the previous post is really self-explanatory.

According to the Old Testament, the main point is that the Creator of this, our reality, is that G-d is One and not a number of individual gods in any tri-unity. But that He uses His unity, a singular entity, with which to teach mankind a moral example of humility in which even the unknowable designer of everything shows that even He, by example, condescends to include His angelic automatons in the creation process.

Everything He included in his original work is nothing more or less than a higher cause to give direction for our freewill to choose between good or evil. Like He Himself sacrficed His own unique place above all things to demonstrate this attribute of considering others rather than self alone. Not to be confused with being saved by a belief.

But this is also not to be considered valid by anyone who believes in his own ability to choose between right and wrong with no 'unseen hand' and creation from an abstract chaos.