Sodom and Gomorrah

[JoeB131]

....
Here is the OP's interpretation in a nutshell:

1) Lot offered to let a crowd gang-rape his virgin daughters rather than his guests.

2) Lot, in a drunken daze, later had incestuous sex with those same daughters, apparently on their instigation so they could get pregnant.

3) Lot was described as a "righteous" man, which, given the above, calls into question just what standard of "righteousness" is being advocated.

Now: just exactly how and why is that interpretation wrong? No platitudes, no unsupported statements, no reference to "the Holy Spirit" -- explain why and how the OP got it wrong. If you can't, you're just dodging.

The interpretation is correct. Lot said all of those things; and he and his daughters did those things.

It all began when there wasn't enough room for Abe's herds and Lot's, so Abe said you choose where to live and I take what is left. Abe had a good heart.

The Bible said that the city that Lot chose was one bad cesspool of sin, but Lot wasn't concerned about that. He thought that the land was great.
He didn't consider what was good for himself morally. He only looked at the short term benefits. (If you read the story in context, you will see that this is how it happened.)

In affect, Lot placed himself in a position whereby he could be influenced by the city. We know from what he said and what he and his daughters did that he was influenced. The influence was so great, that when God delivered him from one cesspool, he found another just like it. Then, he ended up with nothing. (This is also in the greater context.)

He had started out with herds so large that there wasn't room enough for both his and Abe's; but he must have made a wrong turn somewhere. (Do you think?)

The Bible says that that is what they said and did. It doesn't say that that is what God said and did, or that he even condoned it.

Nowhere in this portion of the Bible does God say that Lot was righteous. I expect that God didn't want to encourage us to do the same thing.

In 2 Pet 2:7,8 God calls Lot righteous. That's because he was 'vexed' (LKJ). I learn from this that if you are righteous, you will be bothered by wrong, but if you want to live a commendable life, you will actively seek to place yourself where you can be influenced by God, and actively shun places that can negatively influence you.

IN spite of 2 Pet 2:7,8, most people do NOT think of Lot as righteous. That is because he made too many wrong choices. Or, he made one wrong choice, and never made a choice to correct his life after that.

Some people think that if you Believe on the Son, you are righteous. I guess so. Lot was.

But, if you want to live for God and be a positive influence on others, you must be constantly on guard to seek a positive spiritual environment for yourself, and you have to discipline your self to make the right moral choices for yourself.

Your whole premise is based on the assertation that the God of the Old Testement is a benign being. Not one who kills children to teach people a lesson or just because they happen to be in the way of whatever awesome punishment he's ready to inflict on people.

Regardless of whatever excuses you want to make for Lot, his behavior was a lot worse than the babies that must have been in Sodom and Gomorrah that day. (Again, never clear what the Gomorrah people did that was so bad.) Even poor Mrs. Lot did nothing more than look back, and she got turned into salt. (Seriously, any of us would have done the same thing if we were running away and our home and all our neighbors were being wiped out.)

I think one of the biggest problems with Christianity is that it believes in a benevolent God, one influenced and molded by Zoroasterism and Greek Philosophy on what God should be.

Compared to the Bronze Age God of the Old Testement who is just an explanation for whatever natural disasters befell the Hebrews. Something bad happens, God must be angry, stone a sinner and sacrifice a bull and start praying things get better.

 

[logical4u]

So........you have to be "Christian" to get into Heaven?

I thought Yeshua (Jesus) was actually God's Son, not God Himself.

If you see the Lord and recognize Him as your Savior, YOU ARE CHRISTIAN. It does not matter what your earthly names and understandings, at the point you know that is "your" Lord, the Lord knows your heart, you are one of "His". (Do you think that Yeshua uses His "English" name, Jesus?????

Many of those in the Jewish faith don't recognize Yeshua as the Savior, instead, they choose to worship HaShem Himself.

Are they going to hell?

Do you think that I have the "authority" to sentence them to hell????? I will answer that: NO, I do not have the authority to condemn anyone (I can tell people if they are acting in a sinful manner, then it is their choice to continue, or not).

Did you not read what I posted? Each person has the Lord written on their heart. Only the Lord and that individual "know for sure" if Yeshua is the Lord of their heart. On judgement day, we, "we" will learn who is to join Him, and who is to be sentenced to an eternity without Him. That judgement will be done on witches, superstitious people, Hindus, Jews, Buddahists, muslims, Christians, atheists, those that worship multiple dieties (every single person ever born) will bend their knee before the Lord, every last one of us, sinners. Each of us cannot know who will join Yeshua (even those that believe differently than us), or even if we will not join Him. That is one of the great mysteries. Who will go, who will see heaven?

 

[ABikerSailor]

If you see the Lord and recognize Him as your Savior, YOU ARE CHRISTIAN. It does not matter what your earthly names and understandings, at the point you know that is "your" Lord, the Lord knows your heart, you are one of "His". (Do you think that Yeshua uses His "English" name, Jesus?????

Many of those in the Jewish faith don't recognize Yeshua as the Savior, instead, they choose to worship HaShem Himself.

Are they going to hell?

Do you think that I have the "authority" to sentence them to hell????? I will answer that: NO, I do not have the authority to condemn anyone (I can tell people if they are acting in a sinful manner, then it is their choice to continue, or not).

Did you not read what I posted? Each person has the Lord written on their heart. Only the Lord and that individual "know for sure" if Yeshua is the Lord of their heart. On judgement day, we, "we" will learn who is to join Him, and who is to be sentenced to an eternity without Him. That judgement will be done on witches, superstitious people, Hindus, Jews, Buddahists, muslims, Christians, atheists, those that worship multiple dieties (every single person ever born) will bend their knee before the Lord, every last one of us, sinners. Each of us cannot know who will join Yeshua (even those that believe differently than us), or even if we will not join Him. That is one of the great mysteries. Who will go, who will see heaven?

Then why is it that most Christians will tell you very explicitly that you ARE going to hell unless you're saved by Yeshua.

Like I said..........does that (according to the Christian doctrine) mean that the Jews (original people who talked to God which is why they're His Chosen) who haven't converted are going to hell? If so, why? The Jews knew God first.

 

[JoeB131]

Still Going...

 

[ABikerSailor]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjqSRQoxnhs&ob=av2e]Big Audio Dynamite - V. Thirteen - YouTube[/ame]

Good Morning Sodom and Gomorrah.

Good Morning Sinners.

No, that wasn't your tv set on the blink again.........

 

[logical4u]

Many of those in the Jewish faith don't recognize Yeshua as the Savior, instead, they choose to worship HaShem Himself.

Are they going to hell?

Do you think that I have the "authority" to sentence them to hell????? I will answer that: NO, I do not have the authority to condemn anyone (I can tell people if they are acting in a sinful manner, then it is their choice to continue, or not).

Did you not read what I posted? Each person has the Lord written on their heart. Only the Lord and that individual "know for sure" if Yeshua is the Lord of their heart. On judgement day, we, "we" will learn who is to join Him, and who is to be sentenced to an eternity without Him. That judgement will be done on witches, superstitious people, Hindus, Jews, Buddahists, muslims, Christians, atheists, those that worship multiple dieties (every single person ever born) will bend their knee before the Lord, every last one of us, sinners. Each of us cannot know who will join Yeshua (even those that believe differently than us), or even if we will not join Him. That is one of the great mysteries. Who will go, who will see heaven?

Then why is it that most Christians will tell you very explicitly that you ARE going to hell unless you're saved by Yeshua.

Like I said..........does that (according to the Christian doctrine) mean that the Jews (original people who talked to God which is why they're His Chosen) who haven't converted are going to hell? If so, why? The Jews knew God first.

People go by what "they" understand. They are telling you according to their understanding. I don't know "most" Christians. The ones I do will tell you they do not have the authority to condemn (The apostles were given the power and authority to do that. Holy people may have that power, but your "average" Christian does not have that power or authority). If you understood 'my' interpretation, you will also see that Yeshua is the one that saves at the time of judgement. I understood that part of Revelations to mean every person (not just Christians) will be judged according to what is in their hearts. If Yeshua (by whatever name they call him) is in their hearts, the Lord will know. The only people that will have any input will be His chosen with Him at His throne, not their peers, not their buddies, not their significant others. If others pray for them, the Lord may be merciful (there is a part in the gospels about a paralyzed man being saved by the faith of his friends). The Lord gives us blessings, gifts and opportunites to grow, spiritually. What we do with those is entirely up to us. If we choose to ignore Him and waste His gifts/blessings, I cannot imagine that He will happy with us on judgement day. If we strive to follow His example in our hearts, I think that He will be pleased. The Lord gave each of us the ability to reason, doing so, is up to us.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Do you think that I have the "authority" to sentence them to hell????? I will answer that: NO, I do not have the authority to condemn anyone (I can tell people if they are acting in a sinful manner, then it is their choice to continue, or not).

Did you not read what I posted? Each person has the Lord written on their heart. Only the Lord and that individual "know for sure" if Yeshua is the Lord of their heart. On judgement day, we, "we" will learn who is to join Him, and who is to be sentenced to an eternity without Him. That judgement will be done on witches, superstitious people, Hindus, Jews, Buddahists, muslims, Christians, atheists, those that worship multiple dieties (every single person ever born) will bend their knee before the Lord, every last one of us, sinners. Each of us cannot know who will join Yeshua (even those that believe differently than us), or even if we will not join Him. That is one of the great mysteries. Who will go, who will see heaven?

Then why is it that most Christians will tell you very explicitly that you ARE going to hell unless you're saved by Yeshua.

Like I said..........does that (according to the Christian doctrine) mean that the Jews (original people who talked to God which is why they're His Chosen) who haven't converted are going to hell? If so, why? The Jews knew God first.

People go by what "they" understand. They are telling you according to their understanding. I don't know "most" Christians. The ones I do will tell you they do not have the authority to condemn (The apostles were given the power and authority to do that. Holy people may have that power, but your "average" Christian does not have that power or authority). If you understood 'my' interpretation, you will also see that Yeshua is the one that saves at the time of judgement. I understood that part of Revelations to mean every person (not just Christians) will be judged according to what is in their hearts. If Yeshua (by whatever name they call him) is in their hearts, the Lord will know. The only people that will have any input will be His chosen with Him at His throne, not their peers, not their buddies, not their significant others. If others pray for them, the Lord may be merciful (there is a part in the gospels about a paralyzed man being saved by the faith of his friends). The Lord gives us blessings, gifts and opportunites to grow, spiritually. What we do with those is entirely up to us. If we choose to ignore Him and waste His gifts/blessings, I cannot imagine that He will happy with us on judgement day. If we strive to follow His example in our hearts, I think that He will be pleased. The Lord gave each of us the ability to reason, doing so, is up to us.

Okay.........so what about middle African tribes who have never even hear of Him?

Are they consigned to hell, just because they never heard of Him, nor had a chance to learn about Him?

Just asking...........

 

[CitizenPained]

Since Lot had angels on his side the whole time, the two men coming to his house uninvited didn't have a chance. It never says Lot intended to do what he said he offered.

btw, Jewish tradition holds that Sodom & Gomorrah's sins were that of greed and inhospitality.

 

[JoeB131]

Since Lot had angels on his side the whole time, the two men coming to his house uninvited didn't have a chance. It never says Lot intended to do what he said he offered.

btw, Jewish tradition holds that Sodom & Gomorrah's sins were that of greed and inhospitality.

That worked on the assumption that Lot was really aware how awesome the angels were. Keep in mind, in an earlier verse, he insisted they come to his house because the streets of Sodom weren't safe when they wanted to sleep in the village square. In short, he felt they were in danger.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Then why is it that most Christians will tell you very explicitly that you ARE going to hell unless you're saved by Yeshua.

Like I said..........does that (according to the Christian doctrine) mean that the Jews (original people who talked to God which is why they're His Chosen) who haven't converted are going to hell? If so, why? The Jews knew God first.

People go by what "they" understand. They are telling you according to their understanding. I don't know "most" Christians. The ones I do will tell you they do not have the authority to condemn (The apostles were given the power and authority to do that. Holy people may have that power, but your "average" Christian does not have that power or authority). If you understood 'my' interpretation, you will also see that Yeshua is the one that saves at the time of judgement. I understood that part of Revelations to mean every person (not just Christians) will be judged according to what is in their hearts. If Yeshua (by whatever name they call him) is in their hearts, the Lord will know. The only people that will have any input will be His chosen with Him at His throne, not their peers, not their buddies, not their significant others. If others pray for them, the Lord may be merciful (there is a part in the gospels about a paralyzed man being saved by the faith of his friends). The Lord gives us blessings, gifts and opportunites to grow, spiritually. What we do with those is entirely up to us. If we choose to ignore Him and waste His gifts/blessings, I cannot imagine that He will happy with us on judgement day. If we strive to follow His example in our hearts, I think that He will be pleased. The Lord gave each of us the ability to reason, doing so, is up to us.

Okay.........so what about middle African tribes who have never even hear of Him?

Are they consigned to hell, just because they never heard of Him, nor had a chance to learn about Him?

Just asking...........

Whenever I've asked christians about this, I usually get the "he's in your heart, he's in your soul, he's in your brain so everyone knows about him." Which is odd because it makes me wonder why anyone needs to read the Bible if people who have never heard of him automatically know about him.

So if you haven't heard of him, it's basically your own fault bc you aren't listening to your heart or whatever and yes you're going to hell.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Okay......so if everyone knows about Him, why is it that the Christians insist that you must be saved by Yeshua specifically?

Can Buddha fill in if necessary for those in China? He taught basically the same things Yeshua did.

 

[Foxfyre]

Okay......so if everyone knows about Him, why is it that the Christians insist that you must be saved by Yeshua specifically?

Can Buddha fill in if necessary for those in China? He taught basically the same things Yeshua did.

Correction, Buddha did not teach basically the same things Yeshua did. Buddha suggested that the ability to save ourselves and achieve perfection resides within each of us and encouraged us to achieve the discipline to reach that perfected state.

Yeshua was pretty adament that all sin and fall short and it is by the loving grace of God that we are saved rather than by anything we do. Then again, many if not most Christians believe that Yeshua and God are one and the same. And those of us who try to achieve maturity in our faith give up our feeble attempts to micromanage, define, and contain who and what God is or how He might do anything. So yes, I believe it is God (or G-d for our Jewish friends) who saves us, but I do not presume to suggest how that might happen for anybody. I am convinced however, that it doesn't happen according to any prescribed dogma, doctrine, ritual, rite, or process but God has ways to reach people that probably never occurred to most of us.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Okay......so if everyone knows about Him, why is it that the Christians insist that you must be saved by Yeshua specifically?

Can Buddha fill in if necessary for those in China? He taught basically the same things Yeshua did.

Correction, Buddha did not teach basically the same things Yeshua did. Buddha suggested that the ability to save ourselves and achieve perfection resides within each of us and encouraged us to achieve the discipline to reach that perfected state.

Yeshua was pretty adament that all sin and fall short and it is by the loving grace of God that we are saved rather than by anything we do. Then again, many if not most Christians believe that Yeshua and God are one and the same. And those of us who try to achieve maturity in our faith give up our feeble attempts to micromanage, define, and contain who and what God is or how He might do anything. So yes, I believe it is God (or G-d for our Jewish friends) who saves us, but I do not presume to suggest how that might happen for anybody. I am convinced however, that it doesn't happen according to any prescribed dogma, doctrine, ritual, rite, or process but God has ways to reach people that probably never occurred to most of us.

What Buddha suggested via introspection is the same thing that Yeshua referred to when He stated "the Kingdom of God is within".

 

[Foxfyre]

Okay......so if everyone knows about Him, why is it that the Christians insist that you must be saved by Yeshua specifically?

Can Buddha fill in if necessary for those in China? He taught basically the same things Yeshua did.

Correction, Buddha did not teach basically the same things Yeshua did. Buddha suggested that the ability to save ourselves and achieve perfection resides within each of us and encouraged us to achieve the discipline to reach that perfected state.

Yeshua was pretty adament that all sin and fall short and it is by the loving grace of God that we are saved rather than by anything we do. Then again, many if not most Christians believe that Yeshua and God are one and the same. And those of us who try to achieve maturity in our faith give up our feeble attempts to micromanage, define, and contain who and what God is or how He might do anything. So yes, I believe it is God (or G-d for our Jewish friends) who saves us, but I do not presume to suggest how that might happen for anybody. I am convinced however, that it doesn't happen according to any prescribed dogma, doctrine, ritual, rite, or process but God has ways to reach people that probably never occurred to most of us.

What Buddha suggested via introspection is the same thing that Yeshua referred to when He stated "the Kingdom of God is within".

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that. I don't see their philosophies as the same thing at all.

 

[PrometheusBound]

This fable may have been based on an ancient AIDS epidemic. Another example of ancient AIDS may have been the plague in "Golden Age" Athens when homosexuality peaked there.

 

[ABikerSailor]

This fable may have been based on an ancient AIDS epidemic. Another example of ancient AIDS may have been the plague in "Golden Age" Athens when homosexuality peaked there.

Retarded n00b alert.........Looks like Sunni Man, Bass2.0 and 52nd Street have a new room mate.

 

[logical4u]

Then why is it that most Christians will tell you very explicitly that you ARE going to hell unless you're saved by Yeshua.

Like I said..........does that (according to the Christian doctrine) mean that the Jews (original people who talked to God which is why they're His Chosen) who haven't converted are going to hell? If so, why? The Jews knew God first.

People go by what "they" understand. They are telling you according to their understanding. I don't know "most" Christians. The ones I do will tell you they do not have the authority to condemn (The apostles were given the power and authority to do that. Holy people may have that power, but your "average" Christian does not have that power or authority). If you understood 'my' interpretation, you will also see that Yeshua is the one that saves at the time of judgement. I understood that part of Revelations to mean every person (not just Christians) will be judged according to what is in their hearts. If Yeshua (by whatever name they call him) is in their hearts, the Lord will know. The only people that will have any input will be His chosen with Him at His throne, not their peers, not their buddies, not their significant others. If others pray for them, the Lord may be merciful (there is a part in the gospels about a paralyzed man being saved by the faith of his friends). The Lord gives us blessings, gifts and opportunites to grow, spiritually. What we do with those is entirely up to us. If we choose to ignore Him and waste His gifts/blessings, I cannot imagine that He will happy with us on judgement day. If we strive to follow His example in our hearts, I think that He will be pleased. The Lord gave each of us the ability to reason, doing so, is up to us.

Okay.........so what about middle African tribes who have never even hear of Him?

Are they consigned to hell, just because they never heard of Him, nor had a chance to learn about Him?

Just asking...........

..... "I understood that part of Revelations to mean every person (not just Christians) will be judged according to what is in their hearts. If Yeshua (by whatever name they call him) is in their hearts, the Lord will know." ....

How many times do I need to say it: the Lord is the only one that will judge that day. He knows peoples' souls and hearts. He will judge accordingly. The Lord knew each one of us in the womb. Yeshua was sent to be the priest, the sacrifice, and the Truth. He did it for all people (read about the Canaanite woman that was told by Yeshua that He was there to save the Jews, when she replied that even a dog can expect scraps from the master's table, she received what she asked, even though the Canaanites were cursed by the Lord, generations before). It does not matter if a person grew up with animals and never saw another person and never learned to read, the Lord was written onto their heart. The choice of what they did with that, was theirs, for that, they will be judged.

 

[logical4u]

People go by what "they" understand. They are telling you according to their understanding. I don't know "most" Christians. The ones I do will tell you they do not have the authority to condemn (The apostles were given the power and authority to do that. Holy people may have that power, but your "average" Christian does not have that power or authority). If you understood 'my' interpretation, you will also see that Yeshua is the one that saves at the time of judgement. I understood that part of Revelations to mean every person (not just Christians) will be judged according to what is in their hearts. If Yeshua (by whatever name they call him) is in their hearts, the Lord will know. The only people that will have any input will be His chosen with Him at His throne, not their peers, not their buddies, not their significant others. If others pray for them, the Lord may be merciful (there is a part in the gospels about a paralyzed man being saved by the faith of his friends). The Lord gives us blessings, gifts and opportunites to grow, spiritually. What we do with those is entirely up to us. If we choose to ignore Him and waste His gifts/blessings, I cannot imagine that He will happy with us on judgement day. If we strive to follow His example in our hearts, I think that He will be pleased. The Lord gave each of us the ability to reason, doing so, is up to us.

Okay.........so what about middle African tribes who have never even hear of Him?

Are they consigned to hell, just because they never heard of Him, nor had a chance to learn about Him?

Just asking...........

Whenever I've asked christians about this, I usually get the "he's in your heart, he's in your soul, he's in your brain so everyone knows about him." Which is odd because it makes me wonder why anyone needs to read the Bible if people who have never heard of him automatically know about him.

So if you haven't heard of him, it's basically your own fault bc you aren't listening to your heart or whatever and yes you're going to hell.

Where ever you find genuinely good people, you will see the Lord in their actions and thoughts. There are many cultures where evil suppresses speaking freely. Those people cannot openly search for the Truth and the Light, because they will be murdered or tortured. On judgement day, every knee will bend and those that recognize Him as their Lord will be shown mercy (it does not matter what they called Him in their language, those that join Him will learn to speak as the angels, not the confusing languages of man). That is "my" understanding of that part of Revelations.

Going to "hell" is reserved for those that deny, denounce, and curse Him during judgement!

 

[logical4u]

Okay......so if everyone knows about Him, why is it that the Christians insist that you must be saved by Yeshua specifically?

Can Buddha fill in if necessary for those in China? He taught basically the same things Yeshua did.

If you are educated, and you ignore His teachings for those of another, it is easy to be corrupted. Other teachings are designed to appeal to the weak of mind (those faiths tend to be "accepting" of faults and failures). It would be easy to be led onto the wrong path. Yes, there are a few different faiths that teach "basically the same things Yeshua did" [you can say that about islam that teaches that it is perfectly acceptable to deceive (the Bible says that when the New Jerusalem is made on earth, the liars will be outside the walls), murder, and other sins in the name of islam] [you can say that about Koresh, Manson and Jones (all taught their followers, "basically" Biblical knowledge]. Why would you go to distant, second hand knowledge when you could go to the interpreted source (the Bible)? When you read it, with prayer, you can learn so much wisdom. After your life changes (matures), you can go back and read it again, and the meanings will grow with you. I have read other book that I see more as I mature, but it is the evil, the ugly, not the Light that you find in the Bible.

Those that do not have access to the Word are known by the Lord. He is merciful, and will judge accordingly.