Sodom and Gomorrah

[earlycuyler]

Na. Not really. You would be shocked how many are not fooled. Bummer PM;s are not public.

 

[earlycuyler]

Got work. Lates man.

 

[JoeB131]

You work on some odd impression I actually give a shit what other people think.

 

[earlycuyler]

Its obvious you do, or you would not go to such great length to try and look smart.

 

[JoeB131]

Its obvious you do, or you would not go to such great length to try and look smart.

Oookay, guy, it strikes me that if you are "trying" to look smart, you are failing miserably...

 

[earlycuyler]

Ok. Guy.

 

[logical4u]

One more time- A god who tortures people for all eternity for not believing in him isn't worthy of anyone's worship.

If people are "spiritual beings", it may be extremely hard to "end them" (their spirit). Some believe that "hell" is actually a mercy. Once in the presence of the Lord, the desire to remain there will be so strong, that only a distraction (pain) will ease the longing.
There is evidence of this: in the Book of Enoch when Enoch tells the fallen angels there punishment for sinning against the Lord, part of that punishment is banishment from the presence of the Lord (confined to earth). When they heard this part of the punishment, the fallen angels thru themselves on the ground, tore their clothing, gnashed their teeth, pulled out their hair and clawed their chests.
They were in the presence of the Lord. They knew what that was like, yet they were extremely distressed when they heard that particular part of the punishment.

We are witnesses to some spiritual occurences here where people seem to just shine with spiritual love. We want that. Many of us try to work towards that by practicing our faiths and the continual search for the truth. Yet the source of that "love" is not fully in our world. When the people that recognize the Lord are in His presence on Judgement Day, they will be filled with ecstacy. Those that deny Him will feel a super "high", but deny the source. They will denounce Him, and yet at the same time, not want to leave His presence. When they are sent away, it will be absolute hell (pain), not to be in His presence.

The book of Enoch is apocryphal. I think you guys are having enough trouble with the crazy shit that made it into the bible, you shouldn't be looking for more.

But let's put it this way. I work with a nice Japanese lady who is a Buhddist. Doesn't believe in Jesus, she believes in Bhudda. Does she deserve to go to hell? Isn't her fault. She was born in Japan and that's what they know over there.

And the same for Hindus, Muslims, Jainists, Zoroasterians, and so on.

I am not a Biblical scholar. There is a part in Revelations that speaks to me (I understood it better than the rest of Revelations). It talks about when EVERY knee will bend before Yeshua. It says that each person will face Him. My interpretation of this is: at that point, any person that recognizes Him as their Savior, their Lord, will have mercy shown (it will not matter what name they thought He had on earth, at that moment and for the rest of time, He will be their Lord, that would make them.... Christian). Those that curse Him and question His authority will be removed from His presence (a hell in its own right, to have experience His being, and then to be forcibly removed). I used to question that part of "understanding" when I was a child, also; I have spoken with Reverends that believe similarly, though it is not lectured at church. As Christians, we are responsible for learning as much as possible about the Lord.

 

[logical4u]

What about all the Buddhists, Hindus and Jews who don't necessarily recognize Christ as the Savior, yet all have a pretty strong connection to God.

Do all those people get tossed out as well? If so, the God you believe in is kinda wasteful, I mean.......creating all those people just to throw them away.

I am no Biblical scholar. But.... in Revelations, at one point, it talks about when EVERY knee shall bend before the Lord. My interpretation of this: if you see the Lord, the Christ, and recognize Him as "your" Lord, "your" Truth, you have always been a Christian. It doesn't matter what faith you believed, it doesn't matter what you called yourself. The Lord knows your heart, and He (the Lord) has been written onto every man's heart (that is proper english for men and women). You will be judged and punished for your sins (for He is a "just" Lord). Your punishments will be tempered with mercy, because he is a loving Lord. For those that deny Him .... they will be denied His presence (surely a terrible punishment, like hell itself). The Lord's ways are not our ways. We comprehend very little of His work.

Quick question there chumpsteak.........how can someone who has never heard of Jesus or what He did ever be considered to be a "Christian" when they've never heard of Christ?

You really are a stupid little zealot, ain't ya?

In Jerimiah, it said that in the New Covenant, that the Lord would be written onto men's hearts (that would be every single person). The knowledge that an Almighty Being is, has been with them since the Lord gave them life. It does not matter what the society called Him. It does not matter what language was spoken. The Lord knows our hearts. If that person was true to the knowledge "written" onto their heart, they know the Lord. They will recognize Him, instantly, the moment the see Him (spiritually of course), they will praise Him and worship Him.

If they are on their knees in front of Him, and they curse Him and deny His authority, they are not "Christian", and will not be tolerated in His presence (a hell all by itself).

 

[logical4u]

So the Bible and book of Mormon is crazy, as well as the Koran, but you dont ever bash it as you do the other two, yet those who worship six armed beings with elephant heads are sane ? You are a goofy cuss cammmpbell.

Didn't say they were sane, Clem. I freely admit, I've never read the Koran and don't know enough about it to make a criticism. More to the point, a Muslim has never done anything to mess with me personally. There aren't a lot of Muslims in America, and they aren't trying to impose their stupidity on us.

Most of the problems we have with Muslims is that we keep sticking our hands in their hornet's nest and wondering why we get stung. Oh, wait, isn't that one of our "good" Hornets we used to back. (Saddam and Bin Laden were both good buddies of the CIA before they turned on us.)

The point I was making was the foolishness of a God who condemns people to eternal fire not for their conduct, but for where they just had the misfortune of being born.

He's an omnipotent, eternal being who has geographical limitations.

How many more "Americans" have to be murdered by islamic extremists for you to realize that muslims ARE messing with you, your laws, your country, and your freedom?

 

[ABikerSailor]

I am no Biblical scholar. But.... in Revelations, at one point, it talks about when EVERY knee shall bend before the Lord. My interpretation of this: if you see the Lord, the Christ, and recognize Him as "your" Lord, "your" Truth, you have always been a Christian. It doesn't matter what faith you believed, it doesn't matter what you called yourself. The Lord knows your heart, and He (the Lord) has been written onto every man's heart (that is proper english for men and women). You will be judged and punished for your sins (for He is a "just" Lord). Your punishments will be tempered with mercy, because he is a loving Lord. For those that deny Him .... they will be denied His presence (surely a terrible punishment, like hell itself). The Lord's ways are not our ways. We comprehend very little of His work.

Quick question there chumpsteak.........how can someone who has never heard of Jesus or what He did ever be considered to be a "Christian" when they've never heard of Christ?

You really are a stupid little zealot, ain't ya?

In Jerimiah, it said that in the New Covenant, that the Lord would be written onto men's hearts (that would be every single person). The knowledge that an Almighty Being is, has been with them since the Lord gave them life. It does not matter what the society called Him. It does not matter what language was spoken. The Lord knows our hearts. If that person was true to the knowledge "written" onto their heart, they know the Lord. They will recognize Him, instantly, the moment the see Him (spiritually of course), they will praise Him and worship Him.

If they are on their knees in front of Him, and they curse Him and deny His authority, they are not "Christian", and will not be tolerated in His presence (a hell all by itself).

So........you have to be "Christian" to get into Heaven?

I thought Yeshua (Jesus) was actually God's Son, not God Himself.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Look at it historically....women weren't worth much back then. Lot had taken in the angels under his protection. The Angels were more important to him than his daughters. This certainly wasn't unusual at the time.

Those were his daughters. Sorry, anyone who would offer his daughter up for gang rape is depraved, no matter what time he lived in.

As for having sex with his daughters while inebriated...they got him drunk. They thought they were the last people on earth and the only way the human race could continue was if they had children by their father. They knew he would never agree so they got him drunk and you blame him????

I would have to wonder just how drunk you could possibly get to have sex with your daughter- twice!

I do think this passage is more propaganda than history. The MOabites and Ammonites claimed descent from Terah, the father of Abraham... so the incest thing is just a slander.

The Bible was written by men, inspired by God, but written by men. All through it you can see how women are considered to be worth less than men. The church claims it's because of Eve's sin, being the first to eat of the tree of knowledge. I think it's because men know what women are capable of and want to keep them subjugated less they take over the world. Remember "written by men". IMO Eve was the first to eat of the tree of knowledge but only because Adam handed her the apple and said "here, you try it first."

Oh, I do agree that the bible was written by men. The inspired by God part is what I think is bullshit.

I am not talking about whether the story is true, I doubt it is. I just wonder about the standard being laid down.

First of all the Angels prevented his daughters from being raped when they blinded them. And it won't be the first time man made a mistake in the presence of the Angels and God.

Many times men kneeled to worship Angels where the Angels had to stop it.

The daughters got lot drunk and took advantage of him to preserve the bloodline.

Now writings of these so called ignorant goat herders that wrote things that they could not of known what they were writing about that has only been confirmed through modern day science.

Eternal Productions - 101 Scientific Facts and Foreknowledge

 

[JoeB131]

Two points-

The guys didn't want to rape the daughters because they wanted to rape the angels.. Get it. They wuz "Sodomites"...

Second, the Bible got everything wrong scientically... Here's a quick list..

Science and History in the Bible

 

[bodecea]

I love it when people try to disprove God and use the Bible even when they have no clue what the Bible says.

Well then, show us all you know about the bible and refute the OPs take.

 

[bodecea]

Look at it historically....women weren't worth much back then. Lot had taken in the angels under his protection. The Angels were more important to him than his daughters. This certainly wasn't unusual at the time.

Those were his daughters. Sorry, anyone who would offer his daughter up for gang rape is depraved, no matter what time he lived in.





I would have to wonder just how drunk you could possibly get to have sex with your daughter- twice!

I do think this passage is more propaganda than history. The MOabites and Ammonites claimed descent from Terah, the father of Abraham... so the incest thing is just a slander.

The Bible was written by men, inspired by God, but written by men. All through it you can see how women are considered to be worth less than men. The church claims it's because of Eve's sin, being the first to eat of the tree of knowledge. I think it's because men know what women are capable of and want to keep them subjugated less they take over the world. Remember "written by men". IMO Eve was the first to eat of the tree of knowledge but only because Adam handed her the apple and said "here, you try it first."

Oh, I do agree that the bible was written by men. The inspired by God part is what I think is bullshit.

I am not talking about whether the story is true, I doubt it is. I just wonder about the standard being laid down.

First of all the Angels prevented his daughters from being raped when they blinded them. And it won't be the first time man made a mistake in the presence of the Angels and God.

Many times men kneeled to worship Angels where the Angels had to stop it.

The daughters got lot drunk and took advantage of him to preserve the bloodline.

Now writings of these so called ignorant goat herders that wrote things that they could not of known what they were writing about that has only been confirmed through modern day science.

Eternal Productions - 101 Scientific Facts and Foreknowledge

The so-called angels thought the ONE GUY worth saving was the guy who offered his two virgin daughters up to the crowd.

I guess I know why fundamentalists don't value women so much now.

 

[LOki]

Look at it historically....women weren't worth much back then. Lot had taken in the angels under his protection. The Angels were more important to him than his daughters. This certainly wasn't unusual at the time.

Those were his daughters. Sorry, anyone who would offer his daughter up for gang rape is depraved, no matter what time he lived in.





I would have to wonder just how drunk you could possibly get to have sex with your daughter- twice!

I do think this passage is more propaganda than history. The MOabites and Ammonites claimed descent from Terah, the father of Abraham... so the incest thing is just a slander.

The Bible was written by men, inspired by God, but written by men. All through it you can see how women are considered to be worth less than men. The church claims it's because of Eve's sin, being the first to eat of the tree of knowledge. I think it's because men know what women are capable of and want to keep them subjugated less they take over the world. Remember "written by men". IMO Eve was the first to eat of the tree of knowledge but only because Adam handed her the apple and said "here, you try it first."

Oh, I do agree that the bible was written by men. The inspired by God part is what I think is bullshit.

I am not talking about whether the story is true, I doubt it is. I just wonder about the standard being laid down.

First of all the Angels prevented his daughters from being raped when they blinded them. And it won't be the first time man made a mistake in the presence of the Angels and God.

Many times men kneeled to worship Angels where the Angels had to stop it.

The daughters got lot drunk and took advantage of him to preserve the bloodline.

Now writings of these so called ignorant goat herders that wrote things that they could not of known what they were writing about that has only been confirmed through modern day science.

Eternal Productions - 101 Scientific Facts and Foreknowledge

These 101 Scientific Facts and Foreknowledge you refer to are transparent rationalizations, retarded non-sequiturs, and lies. Setting aside the factitious meanings attributed to these "101 Scientific Facts," the fact that you COMPLETELY IGNORE the patently obvious instances where the divinely inspired "science" in the Bible is utterly, inexcusably, unambiguously, and irredeemably WRONG is proof that the significance assigned to these "101 Scientific Facts" is (like the existence of this "Creator" of yours) ENTIRELY IMAGINARY. The fallacy you are (intentionally) exercising (again) is known as the TEXAS SHARPSHOOTER FALLACY.

 

[logical4u]

Quick question there chumpsteak.........how can someone who has never heard of Jesus or what He did ever be considered to be a "Christian" when they've never heard of Christ?

You really are a stupid little zealot, ain't ya?

In Jerimiah, it said that in the New Covenant, that the Lord would be written onto men's hearts (that would be every single person). The knowledge that an Almighty Being is, has been with them since the Lord gave them life. It does not matter what the society called Him. It does not matter what language was spoken. The Lord knows our hearts. If that person was true to the knowledge "written" onto their heart, they know the Lord. They will recognize Him, instantly, the moment the see Him (spiritually of course), they will praise Him and worship Him.

If they are on their knees in front of Him, and they curse Him and deny His authority, they are not "Christian", and will not be tolerated in His presence (a hell all by itself).

So........you have to be "Christian" to get into Heaven?

I thought Yeshua (Jesus) was actually God's Son, not God Himself.

If you see the Lord and recognize Him as your Savior, YOU ARE CHRISTIAN. It does not matter what your earthly names and understandings, at the point you know that is "your" Lord, the Lord knows your heart, you are one of "His". (Do you think that Yeshua uses His "English" name, Jesus?????

 

[Foxfyre]

Those were his daughters. Sorry, anyone who would offer his daughter up for gang rape is depraved, no matter what time he lived in.





I would have to wonder just how drunk you could possibly get to have sex with your daughter- twice!

I do think this passage is more propaganda than history. The MOabites and Ammonites claimed descent from Terah, the father of Abraham... so the incest thing is just a slander.




Oh, I do agree that the bible was written by men. The inspired by God part is what I think is bullshit.

I am not talking about whether the story is true, I doubt it is. I just wonder about the standard being laid down.

First of all the Angels prevented his daughters from being raped when they blinded them. And it won't be the first time man made a mistake in the presence of the Angels and God.

Many times men kneeled to worship Angels where the Angels had to stop it.

The daughters got lot drunk and took advantage of him to preserve the bloodline.

Now writings of these so called ignorant goat herders that wrote things that they could not of known what they were writing about that has only been confirmed through modern day science.

Eternal Productions - 101 Scientific Facts and Foreknowledge

The so-called angels thought the ONE GUY worth saving was the guy who offered his two virgin daughters up to the crowd.

I guess I know why fundamentalists don't value women so much now.

Or you can go with the vast majority of learned theologians who do not attempt to translate the story literally or discredit it with a literal translation. While it may or may not be based on a historical event--most theologians have no problem with it either way--the person interested in the teaching rather than in discrediting God or the Bible will see the larger truths within the story. They have all been spelled out in this thread.

 

[ABikerSailor]

In Jerimiah, it said that in the New Covenant, that the Lord would be written onto men's hearts (that would be every single person). The knowledge that an Almighty Being is, has been with them since the Lord gave them life. It does not matter what the society called Him. It does not matter what language was spoken. The Lord knows our hearts. If that person was true to the knowledge "written" onto their heart, they know the Lord. They will recognize Him, instantly, the moment the see Him (spiritually of course), they will praise Him and worship Him.

If they are on their knees in front of Him, and they curse Him and deny His authority, they are not "Christian", and will not be tolerated in His presence (a hell all by itself).

So........you have to be "Christian" to get into Heaven?

I thought Yeshua (Jesus) was actually God's Son, not God Himself.

If you see the Lord and recognize Him as your Savior, YOU ARE CHRISTIAN. It does not matter what your earthly names and understandings, at the point you know that is "your" Lord, the Lord knows your heart, you are one of "His". (Do you think that Yeshua uses His "English" name, Jesus?????

Many of those in the Jewish faith don't recognize Yeshua as the Savior, instead, they choose to worship HaShem Himself.

Are they going to hell?

 

[Foxfyre]

So........you have to be "Christian" to get into Heaven?

I thought Yeshua (Jesus) was actually God's Son, not God Himself.

If you see the Lord and recognize Him as your Savior, YOU ARE CHRISTIAN. It does not matter what your earthly names and understandings, at the point you know that is "your" Lord, the Lord knows your heart, you are one of "His". (Do you think that Yeshua uses His "English" name, Jesus?????

Many of those in the Jewish faith don't recognize Yeshua as the Savior, instead, they choose to worship HaShem Himself.

Are they going to hell?

Most Christians believe it isn't our prerogative to assign people to heaven or hell and believe Yeshua/Jesus was pretty adament about that point. He had stern words for those who would presume to condemn others with that 'log' stuck in their own eye.

But then many if not most Christians believe that Yeshua/Jesus and HaShem/G-D are one and the same and what name is used to define that being is pretty irrelevent.

And at any rate, Abraham and Lot almost certainly had no inkling that there would be a Jesus of Nazareth proclaimed as the Son of God and whoever wrote down the story of Sodom and Gomorrah was not writing to Christians but for the benefit of an ancient people who would eventually descend to become the modern Jewish people.

 

[RykerWrite]

....
Here is the OP's interpretation in a nutshell:

1) Lot offered to let a crowd gang-rape his virgin daughters rather than his guests.

2) Lot, in a drunken daze, later had incestuous sex with those same daughters, apparently on their instigation so they could get pregnant.

3) Lot was described as a "righteous" man, which, given the above, calls into question just what standard of "righteousness" is being advocated.

Now: just exactly how and why is that interpretation wrong? No platitudes, no unsupported statements, no reference to "the Holy Spirit" -- explain why and how the OP got it wrong. If you can't, you're just dodging.

The interpretation is correct. Lot said all of those things; and he and his daughters did those things.

It all began when there wasn't enough room for Abe's herds and Lot's, so Abe said you choose where to live and I take what is left. Abe had a good heart.

The Bible said that the city that Lot chose was one bad cesspool of sin, but Lot wasn't concerned about that. He thought that the land was great.
He didn't consider what was good for himself morally. He only looked at the short term benefits. (If you read the story in context, you will see that this is how it happened.)

In affect, Lot placed himself in a position whereby he could be influenced by the city. We know from what he said and what he and his daughters did that he was influenced. The influence was so great, that when God delivered him from one cesspool, he found another just like it. Then, he ended up with nothing. (This is also in the greater context.)

He had started out with herds so large that there wasn't room enough for both his and Abe's; but he must have made a wrong turn somewhere. (Do you think?)

The Bible says that that is what they said and did. It doesn't say that that is what God said and did, or that he even condoned it.

Nowhere in this portion of the Bible does God say that Lot was righteous. I expect that God didn't want to encourage us to do the same thing.

In 2 Pet 2:7,8 God calls Lot righteous. That's because he was 'vexed' (LKJ). I learn from this that if you are righteous, you will be bothered by wrong, but if you want to live a commendable life, you will actively seek to place yourself where you can be influenced by God, and actively shun places that can negatively influence you.

IN spite of 2 Pet 2:7,8, most people do NOT think of Lot as righteous. That is because he made too many wrong choices. Or, he made one wrong choice, and never made a choice to correct his life after that.

Some people think that if you Believe on the Son, you are righteous. I guess so. Lot was.

But, if you want to live for God and be a positive influence on others, you must be constantly on guard to seek a positive spiritual environment for yourself, and you have to discipline your self to make the right moral choices for yourself.