Social or Fiscal Conservative?

[shintao]

Libertarians want to sell off the national parks?

Yes, that is how they intend to pay for setting up their free government. All federal lands will be sold to the highest bidder, which includes parks, military bases, building, lakes, damns, etc. DC is the stronghold they will keep. Spend some time reading their plank. I have followed it for years, and it has changed and become more subtle as they attempt to hide what a Libertian government is.

Statement of Principles
(3) the right to property -- accordingly we oppose all government interference with private property, such as confiscation, nationalization, and eminent domain, and support the prohibition of robbery, trespass, fraud, and misrepresentation.

2.2 Environment
Protecting the environment requires a clear definition and enforcement of individual rights in resources like land, water, air, and wildlife.

2.3 Energy and Resources
We oppose all government control of energy pricing, allocation, and production.


2.4 Government Finance and Spending
We call for the repeal of the income tax, the abolishment of the Internal Revenue Service and all federal programs and services not required under the U.S. Constitution.

http://www.lp.org/platform

 

[Missourian]

Yep, only one so far. I cannot reconcile how someone could be fiscally conservative wanting a smaller government and then go socially conservative that requires a larger government and restrictions on freedoms. Don't worry though, there are a few other social cons here too, you're not alone

I don't see how opposing killing the unborn grows government...do 100% fiscal conservatives oppose government protection of the right to live?

IYO abortion is murder. Not in mine. Why do you insist on foisting your values on me? Why do you insist on getting government involved in this?

Can I kill you? Is your murder an opinion? Why do you insist on getting the government involved in this?

 

[Missourian]

Seriously, let's not make this the abortion thread part 1,000,036...if you want to debate abortion for the thousandth time...let's make a new thread.

 

[Madeline]

I don't see how opposing killing the unborn grows government...do 100% fiscal conservatives oppose government protection of the right to live?

IYO abortion is murder. Not in mine. Why do you insist on foisting your values on me? Why do you insist on getting government involved in this?

Can I kill you? Is your murder an opinion? Why do you insist on getting the government involved in this?

Here's an aspect of this you anti-abortion types rarely consider. I have a finite sum I can spend on crime prevention, detection and punishment. I have already criminalized 10 (for example) behaviors, including intentional murder, fraud, burglary, etc.. You layer in an additional 11th crime, the resources to "fight" it do not increase. I'm going to have to divert resources away from preventing, etc. intentional murder and other crimes to chase teenagers and their doctors for the new crime of abortion. More murderers, embezzlers and burglars will escape undetected and unpunished. How is it this leaves us all better off, unless you are over-valuing your own religious/spiritual comfy level?

Yanno, Missourian, there is misconduct others engage in I'd like to "outlaw" as well. I still don't see how trying to make personal values a government legal policy can ever make any damned sense.

 

[Missourian]

IYO abortion is murder. Not in mine. Why do you insist on foisting your values on me? Why do you insist on getting government involved in this?

Can I kill you? Is your murder an opinion? Why do you insist on getting the government involved in this?

Here's an aspect of this you anti-abortion types rarely consider. I have a finite sum I can spend on crime prevention, detection and punishment. I have already criminalized 10 (for example) behaviors, including intentional murder, fraud, burglary, etc.. You layer in an additional 11th crime, the resources to "fight" it do not increase. I'm going to have to divert resources away from preventing, etc. intentional murder and other crimes to chase teenagers and their doctors for the new crime of abortion. More murderers, embezzlers and burglars will escape undetected and unpunished. How is it this leaves us all better off, unless you are over-valuing your own religious/spiritual comfy level?

Yanno, Missourian, there is misconduct others engage in I'd like to "outlaw" as well. I still don't see how trying to make personal values a government legal policy can ever make any damned sense.

Opposing the dismemberment of a unborn baby with a beating heart is not a personal value, it's a human value.

Again, if it is really important for you to debate this for the thousandth time, make a new thread please.

 

[Madeline]

Missourian wrote:

Opposing the dismemberment of a unborn baby with a beat heart is not a personal value, it's a human value.

It is a value we do not share. Your agitation towards government adopting this value and criminalizing abortion defeats/frustrates my interest in a smaller, more efficient government just as it does my interest in my own personal freedom.

You and I agree that intentional murder, fraud and burglary should be crimes. Why agitate to lengthen that list of criminal behavior to include acts we do NOT agree about and dilute government's overall effectiveness at fighting all crime?

There are various effective non-governmental means for you to reduce the abortion rate. Can't you satisfy your spiritual values that-a-way and leave government out of it?

 

[Missourian]

Missourian wrote:

Opposing the dismemberment of a unborn baby with a beat heart is not a personal value, it's a human value.

It is a value we do not share. Your agitation towards government adopting this value and criminalizing abortion defeats/frustrates my interest in a smaller, more efficient government just as it does my interest in my own personal freedom.

You and I agree that intentional murder, fraud and burglary should be crimes. Why agitate to lengthen that list of criminal behavior to include acts we do NOT agree about and dilute government's overall effectiveness at fighting all crime?

There are various effective non-governmental means for you to reduce the abortion rate. Can't you satisfy your spiritual values that-a-way and leave government out of it?

Opposing the dismemberment of a unborn baby with a beating heart is not a spiritual value, it's a human value.

Again, if it is really important for you to debate this for the thousandth time, make a new thread please.

 

[Madeline]

Missourian wrote:

Opposing the dismemberment of a unborn baby with a beat heart is not a personal value, it's a human value.

It is a value we do not share. Your agitation towards government adopting this value and criminalizing abortion defeats/frustrates my interest in a smaller, more efficient government just as it does my interest in my own personal freedom.

You and I agree that intentional murder, fraud and burglary should be crimes. Why agitate to lengthen that list of criminal behavior to include acts we do NOT agree about and dilute government's overall effectiveness at fighting all crime?

There are various effective non-governmental means for you to reduce the abortion rate. Can't you satisfy your spiritual values that-a-way and leave government out of it?

Opposing the dismemberment of a unborn baby with a beating heart is not a spiritual value, it's a human value.

Again, if it is really important for you to debate this for the thousandth time, make a new thread please.

I am honestly not trying to hijack this thread, Missourian. I'm just trying to make you see I want a smaller government and you want a bigger one....we are at odds, and to call us both "conservatives" seems silly to me.

Government is not the solution to every problem.

 

[Missourian]

It is a value we do not share. Your agitation towards government adopting this value and criminalizing abortion defeats/frustrates my interest in a smaller, more efficient government just as it does my interest in my own personal freedom.

You and I agree that intentional murder, fraud and burglary should be crimes. Why agitate to lengthen that list of criminal behavior to include acts we do NOT agree about and dilute government's overall effectiveness at fighting all crime?

There are various effective non-governmental means for you to reduce the abortion rate. Can't you satisfy your spiritual values that-a-way and leave government out of it?

Opposing the dismemberment of a unborn baby with a beating heart is not a spiritual value, it's a human value.

Again, if it is really important for you to debate this for the thousandth time, make a new thread please.

I am honestly not trying to hijack this thread, Missourian. I'm just trying to make you see I want a smaller government and you want a bigger one....we are at odds, and to call us both "conservatives" seems silly to me.

Government is not the solution to every problem.

Government is not the solution to protecting life? Do you think I should be able to kill you without threat of legal punishment?

 

[Madeline]

There are things government does well and things it does not do well, agreed? There are essential government services and non-essential ones, agreed?

I'd like to parse down government to essential services, done well.

 

[Missourian]

There are things government does well and things it does not do well, agreed? There are essential government services and non-essential ones, agreed?

I'd like to parse down government to essential services, done well.

Protecting life is essential.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Yep, only one so far. I cannot reconcile how someone could be fiscally conservative wanting a smaller government and then go socially conservative that requires a larger government and restrictions on freedoms. Don't worry though, there are a few other social cons here too, you're not alone

I don't see how opposing killing the unborn grows government...do 100% fiscal conservatives oppose government protection of the right to in mine. Why do you insist on foisting your values on me? Why do you insist on getting government involved in this?[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

Wait, let me get this right..... If I vote my beliefs and pass laws that support my beliefs I am forcing my self on you, BUT if you vote your beliefs and pass your laws, you are NOT forcing your beliefs on me.... I got that right?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Obviously I do not understand what a social conservative is, some one explain.

 

[Madeline]

There are things government does well and things it does not do well, agreed? There are essential government services and non-essential ones, agreed?

I'd like to parse down government to essential services, done well.

Protecting life is essential.

If you mean by that criminalizing abortion, we have not done so since 1973. I'd suggest that is fairly strong evidence it is not "essential".

However....I think we might could agree that preventing mayhem in the streets matters more than stamping out abortion. None of us has much freedom if we're afraid to leave the house.

Agreed?

 

[gautama]

I am all over the map on this one.

I don't characterize myself as a CONSERVATIVE.....that's for sure.

I am not even a regular Republican. Example: most Republicans are Religious: from semi-Religious to being Religious whackjobs.

I am not an Atheist in that I do not know if a Supernatural Force exists or not. Hence, at the minimum, I am an Agnostic.

However, more specifically, I am most adamantly against the belief of the Anthropomorphic God of the Organized Religions of the World. To me that is a BIZARRELY LUDICROUS BELIEF where their god is such that hundreds of people one knows are more praiseworthy than their god. Praying to that, to me RIDICULOUS GOD, will yield the same statistical results as praying to the nearest rock in the garden.

My god, if there is a God.....is the Sum Total of the Laws of the Universe. Praying to such a God is like praying to a lightening so that it doesn't strike you. There isn't any Heaven or Hell. In the final analysis we will all become fertilizer just as the cockroach scurrying hither and yon.

To put another name on my Religion: I am a Pantheist of sorts. My Religion is that of Einstein and Spinoza.

There are many religious whackjobs like Dinesh Desouza who claim that Einstein was a Christian. That is Total Bullshit. Einstein was asked whether he was Christian or not, and on numerous occasions Einstein emphatically denied his Christianity and proclaimed to have the same religion as Spinoza.

Most Republicans are NOT in favour of Embryonic Stem Cell Research (ESCR). I am decidedly for ESCR.

These are just a few examples.

So who am I politically ?

I am VOCIFEROUSLY against LIEberrhoids.....ESPECIALLY of the Obamarrhoidal variety.

As far as I am concerned, Obamarrhoidal LIEbturds are America's ENEMY WITHIN.

These abominations are so dangerous that they can literally DESTROY AMERICA as we know it in an additional re-election of that EXPOSED MONUMENTAL FRAUD, MARXIST OBAMBO.

I'd go so far as to say that they are more dangerous than the Al Queda. Or, IRAN.....with whom we are already at war, and have been these many years in Iraq. These Islamofascist Swine are comparatively easier to identify, and their inherently, and GROSSLY hostile "religion" is so antithetical to America's Way of Life that their threat though real.....is, in the final analysis, going to be indubitably defeated.

How do I vote ?

I used to be an off-the-wall Liberrhoid. What do you expect from a graduate of UC Berkeley with three degrees ?

But like David Horowitz, the ENORMITY of LIEberrhoid BULLSHIT overwhelmed me and as a mature human being I STILL cannot comprehend how I was able to be brainwashed by the Berkeley Academic arseholes.

I vote Republican, because I DON'T HAVE ANY CHOICE. As I stated: to vote for the EXPOSED MONUMENTAL FRAUD, MARXIST OBAMBO is next to committing TREASON.

 

[Missourian]

There are things government does well and things it does not do well, agreed? There are essential government services and non-essential ones, agreed?

I'd like to parse down government to essential services, done well.

Protecting life is essential.

If you mean by that criminalizing abortion, we have not done so since 1973. I'd suggest that is fairly strong evidence it is not "essential".

However....I think we might could agree that preventing mayhem in the streets matters more than stamping out abortion. None of us has much freedom if we're afraid to leave the house.

Agreed?

You tell me what freedom you would enjoy had you been killed before you were born.

 

[Madeline]

What is the inherent danger of Obama's policies as you see it, gautama?

 

[Madeline]

Missourian wrote:

You tell me what freedom you would have if you had been killed before you were born.

So, you are not even willing to consider that mayhaps government and the criminal justice system is not the ideal/only way to advance your interests?

 

[Missourian]

Missourian wrote:

You tell me what freedom you would have if you had been killed before you were born.

So, you are not even willing to consider that mayhaps government and the criminal justice system is not the ideal/only way to advance your interests?

It's not my interests...it's human life.

 

[Madeline]

This is going nowhere, Missourian. Good luck in your efforts; I'll be manning the barricades against you but I still like you lots.