Should we raise the Debt Ceiling?

[chikenwing]

NO!! HELL NO!!

This is an easy one

 

[Skull Pilot]

Some idiots dont realize that government is what the founders left us.

the government we have today is NOT the government the founders left us but rather a bloated, mutated, bastardized abomination.

Well yeah, back in the day when all we were were a nation of 13 loosely associated colonies with a population of a couple of million and an mostly agarian society.

But here we are today with a massive empire to maintain and a government that has grown exponentially along with a diverse population of over 300 million.

Things change.

You stated the problem in your unwitting way.

The government has grown exponentially not proportionally.

 

[Skull Pilot]

And the government the founders left us was DESIGNED to grow with the changing American needs and wishes.

They just want to pretend it was NEVER supposed to change from the original document.

IT WAS FUCKING DESIGNED FOR US TO CHANGE AS NEEDED

I wonder how many of the self-professed strict constitutionalists would prefer to live back in the day without the conveniences of modern day life like elctricity, running water, and air conditioning?

That's a non argument.

How about we just live back in the day where the fucking federal government In didn't eat up more than 20% of GDP?

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Raise it to 14.8...which will carry till about June.
Then cut, cut, cut...beginning with Social Security...massive cuts in SS...not what it is as retirement income for seniors, but the other 42 plans that drains the system that has paid for more than one vacation home/new car/boat/RV for many a people that abuse the system.
Then the Department of Education...then...

 

[Mr Natural]

And the government the founders left us was DESIGNED to grow with the changing American needs and wishes.

They just want to pretend it was NEVER supposed to change from the original document.

IT WAS FUCKING DESIGNED FOR US TO CHANGE AS NEEDED

I wonder how many of the self-professed strict constitutionalists would prefer to live back in the day without the conveniences of modern day life like elctricity, running water, and air conditioning?

That's a non argument.

How about we just live back in the day where the fucking federal government In didn't eat up more than 20% of GDP?

Federal spending hasn't been less than 20% of GDP since the thirties.

US Government Spending As Percent Of GDP in United States 1903-2010 - Federal State Local

 

[loosecannon]

Raise it to 14.8...which will carry till about June.
Then cut, cut, cut...beginning with Social Security...massive cuts in SS...not what it is as retirement income for seniors, but the other 42 plans that drains the system that has paid for more than one vacation home/new car/boat/RV for many a people that abuse the system.
Then the Department of Education...then...

agreed, but it would be useful for the teatards to actually stick to their guns and force a robust public debate about spending cuts instead of just caving now.

I watched this crap for years while the dems pretended to be opposed to the wars but without fail they repeatedly just caved, and caved and caved over funding the wars via appropriations bills.

Take a f-ing stand. We could use a rep or two with some balls for a change.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I wonder how many of the self-professed strict constitutionalists would prefer to live back in the day without the conveniences of modern day life like elctricity, running water, and air conditioning?

That's a non argument.

How about we just live back in the day where the fucking federal government In didn't eat up more than 20% of GDP?

Federal spending hasn't been less than 20% of GDP since the thirties.

US Government Spending As Percent Of GDP in United States 1903-2010 - Federal State Local

And your point is what exactly?

Oh let me guess you're going to argue that if we reduce government spending to pre WWII levels then we'll all of a sudden not have civil rights laws or technology, right?

 

[loosecannon]

I wonder how many of the self-professed strict constitutionalists would prefer to live back in the day without the conveniences of modern day life like elctricity, running water, and air conditioning?

That's a non argument.

How about we just live back in the day where the fucking federal government In didn't eat up more than 20% of GDP?

Federal spending hasn't been less than 20% of GDP since the thirties.

US Government Spending As Percent Of GDP in United States 1903-2010 - Federal State Local

US GDP in 2009 = $14,624,184B

The President's budget for 2009 totals $3.1 trillion

2009 United States federal budget - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

List of countries by GDP (nominal) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That is just over 20%, or less half as much as the figure in your chart. And neither the federal budget or the GDP number are controversial figures.

So what gives?

 

[Toro]

Yes, we should raise the debt ceiling.

If the United States defaults, we will relive the Financial Crisis over again.

It would be a disaster.

 

[loosecannon]

So don't default, just cut spending asap. Force the new teabaggers and GOP to cut spending on a fast track.

Whatever short term problems that would arise still pale compared to the unfunded liabilities crisis that is right around the corner.

Austerity now. Before it is thrust upon us in a sudden shock.

Fuck the financial sector! They make their living fucking us.

 

[william the wie]

So don't default, just cut spending asap. Force the new teabaggers and GOP to cut spending on a fast track.

Whatever short term problems that would arise still pale compared to the unfunded liabilities crisis that is right around the corner.

Austerity now. Before it is thrust upon us in a sudden shock.

Fuck the financial sector! They make their living fucking us.

Largely agree but the devil is in the details and packaging is important.

Raise social security eligibility to 70 in 2020 with early retirement at 65.

Remove the cap on payments in.

Partial means testing with SS phased out at 200K for couples.

Leave Medicare alone but start a DARPA style search for cheaper and more effective medical treatment to bring costs down.

Something like that can be sold as moderate and reasonable is more likely to pass.

 

[loosecannon]

So don't default, just cut spending asap. Force the new teabaggers and GOP to cut spending on a fast track.

Whatever short term problems that would arise still pale compared to the unfunded liabilities crisis that is right around the corner.

Austerity now. Before it is thrust upon us in a sudden shock.

Fuck the financial sector! They make their living fucking us.

Largely agree but the devil is in the details and packaging is important.

Raise social security eligibility to 70 in 2020 with early retirement at 65.

Remove the cap on payments in.

Partial means testing with SS phased out at 200K for couples.

Leave Medicare alone but start a DARPA style search for cheaper and more effective medical treatment to bring costs down.

Something like that can be sold as moderate and reasonable is more likely to pass.

Do you think people will be willing to continue to pay 14% of their lifetime earnings into an insurance that they have little prospect to ever benefit from?

If you raise SS to 70 it becomes a very significant tax on those with short life expectancies benefiting only those with very long life expectancies. It is kind of like the exact opposite of health insurance.

IMO SS was poorly conceived, and must fail until those upstairs figure out that there is only one investment vehicle capable of supporting it.

 

[william the wie]

LC, I am a minarchist who would like to see SS/Medicare phased out to be replaced by an opt-out savings account in a default employment contract. But that is not politically possible at the moment. Half a loaf, half a loaf further until we reach the closest possible sustainable approach to anarcho-capitalism is my goal. I also would like to see corporations and patents abandoned as well since they are simply fiat obstructions to but I do not expect to see that in my lifetime either.

 

[loosecannon]

I could save SS, but it would require revolutionary methods.

I hear ya.

 

[AquaAthena]

We are coming to a cliff. Either we raise the debt ceiling, reduce our deficit or default on our obligations. If we continue to raise our limit, it is meaningless and we haven't leaned anything. But likewise, it could be a catastrophe.

Should we make cuts right away and apply them to the deficit so we can show the world we are serious about our debt, ganing world confidence again? Negotiate cuts to pass them right away?

Or have a showdown in Congress and with the Administration? Or take the easy route and just increase the limit. Or a combination?

Let's debate.

I tend to agree with the analysis of this fine thinking and experienced man, author and politician who has been affiliated with both parties for many years.

"Every Republican member of Congress should sign the following pledge, being promulgated by Grover Norquist’s Americans for Tax Reform:

“I promise not to vote for any expansion of the federal debt limit unless it is preceded or accompanied by significant cuts in federal spending.”

"We all know that the reason the federal government debt is exploding is the reckless spending policies of the Obama Administration. From the time George Washington took the oath of office to the time Barack Obama did, Washington borrowed $9 trillion. Since Obama took office, two years ago, we have borrowed almost $5 trillion more! Domestic discretionary spending (non-defense) has risen by an astonishing 41% in two years!!! Welfare spending, primarily Medicaid, has gone up by 54% in two years!!!! We must roll back these increases. (It is not increases in Social Security – 14% — or Medicare -16% that are the problem).


"Obama will never allow spending cuts unless they are jammed down his throat and his need for an expansion of his borrowing authority are the key chance to do so.

"House Speaker John Boehner sounded an ominous note of possible capitulation even before the first shot was fired when he said “We’re going to have to deal with it [raising the debt limit] as adults. Whether we like it or not, the federal government has obligations and we have obligations on our part.”

"Obligations? Sure. But---------

much more: NO DEBT LIMIT EXPANSION WITHOUT SPENDING CUTS! at DickMorris.com