Should we raise the Debt Ceiling?

[zzzz]

Here are the eligible areas you can cut.

 

[jillian]

Why are conservatives so crazy?

We have troops in the field involved in multiple actions. Not raising the ceiling is going to hurt them, and hurt them big.

I didn't and don't agree on the extent of the military actions. But I am pretty damned angry that anyone wants to play chicken when it involves our brave young people that are fighting for our country.

This is a ridiculous thing to do.

Why not cut out other areas?
I agree...dont make it harder for the military to do the jobs.
Instead, enough with trying to make Americans as comfortable as possible.
We dont deserve it.
We need to earn it...ON OUR OWN.

you know i have respect for you, but the new deal programs that the reactionaries have hated since their inception have done great things. the attempt to eviscerate them is something most americans would never tolerate.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Why are conservatives so crazy?

We have troops in the field involved in multiple actions. Not raising the ceiling is going to hurt them, and hurt them big.

I didn't and don't agree on the extent of the military actions. But I am pretty damned angry that anyone wants to play chicken when it involves our brave young people that are fighting for our country.

This is a ridiculous thing to do.

of course, it's ridiclous. idealogues often refuse to look at ramifications.

and notice, none of them said get out of iraq and afghanistan. but they want to cut...

cut what?

the same things they always want to cut so they can starve government until they can drown it in a bathtub.

notice also that not a single one said... raise income tax a couple of percentage points on people earning over a half million or even a million... or said tax estates over 6 million dollars.

this isn't about fiscal responsibility... it's about the 'ihategovernment' contingent.

Idealogues? Our social engineering in the name of do goodism, brought to us mainly by dems, has brought us to the precipice of disaster. It ain't just one idea that brought us to this carnival. You can throw in military spending too if you want but that's not the ultimate problem. They're both destroying us.

 

[Jackson]

they really live in a fantsy land

We're living in fantasyland right now with all of this do gooder social engineering government programs utopia lovefest for all and now we are broke. It's time to be responsible.

Exactly. It's time for Faith Based giving to be citizens' job, not the government, nutrition a parent;s job, not the government's, discretionary spending needless, be exact on what you need in programs, no more subsidies, all grants can be quashed and could be be funded by the rich and they can be given tax deductions for their giving. End funding for NASA, the ARTS and anything that is not a need at this time.

 

[loosecannon]

We are coming to a cliff. Either we raise the debt ceiling, reduce our deficit or default on our obligations. If we continue to raise our limit, it is meaningless and we haven't leaned anything. But likewise, it could be a catastrophe.

Should we make cuts right away and apply them to the deficit so we can show the world we are serious about our debt, ganing world confidence again? Negotiate cuts to pass them right away?

Or have a showdown in Congress and with the Administration? Or take the easy route and just increase the limit. Or a combination?

Let's debate.

We should adopt the initial finding of the Deficit Reduction Committee asap. And of course withdraw all of the recent tax cuts.

 

[Jarhead]

Why are conservatives so crazy?

We have troops in the field involved in multiple actions. Not raising the ceiling is going to hurt them, and hurt them big.

I didn't and don't agree on the extent of the military actions. But I am pretty damned angry that anyone wants to play chicken when it involves our brave young people that are fighting for our country.

This is a ridiculous thing to do.

of course, it's ridiclous. idealogues often refuse to look at ramifications.

and notice, none of them said get out of iraq and afghanistan. but they want to cut...

cut what?

the same things they always want to cut so they can starve government until they can drown it in a bathtub.

notice also that not a single one said... raise income tax a couple of percentage points on people earning over a half million or even a million... or said tax estates over 6 million dollars.

this isn't about fiscal responsibility... it's about the 'ihategovernment' contingent.

Stuck on talking points Jillian. You are better than that.

No need to suggest pulling out of Iraw and A-stan. Plans are in place to do that already.

Taxing the wealthy that do NOT own businesses is an idea, but one that is not easy to implement and is truly not deemed as constitutional....you would have to tax ALL of the wealthy.

But to tax the business owners that are wealthy will most definitely hamper hiring and is by no means a good idea for now....not with unemployment at 10%.

So what is the answer? Stop making the general population comfortable. Let us suffer the consequences of our selfish and greedy actions. Stop bailing out people for not reading before they signed. Stop bailing out people for lying on mortgage appilcations. Stop offering bailpouts to businesses that made stupid greedy buisiness decisions. Stop helping those that took jobs based on great benefits but then lost those jobs becuase the company went out of business. No one FORCED them to take those jobs. It was their choice.

Stop helping us Americans who were quite obviuously not interested in making smart decisions to begin with.

 

[loosecannon]

you know i have respect for you, but the new deal programs that the reactionaries have hated since their inception have done great things. the attempt to eviscerate them is something most americans would never tolerate.

Then they will have to be restructured. Because we won't be able to afford them.

On the other hand it is hard to erect a supportive argument for most of the War on Poverty and Great Society programs. And incarcerating 1% of the nation is hardly a cost effective solution either.

 

[Sallow]

Why are conservatives so crazy?

We have troops in the field involved in multiple actions. Not raising the ceiling is going to hurt them, and hurt them big.

I didn't and don't agree on the extent of the military actions. But I am pretty damned angry that anyone wants to play chicken when it involves our brave young people that are fighting for our country.

This is a ridiculous thing to do.

Why not cut out other areas?
I agree...dont make it harder for the military to do the jobs.
Instead, enough with trying to make Americans as comfortable as possible.
We dont deserve it.
We need to earn it...ON OUR OWN.

What the heck are you talking about? Why do you think people form governments in the first place? To be "uncomfortable"? Absolutely not.

People form governments because collectively there are things that get done the indivdual can't do. And there's a social pact that comes along with that. Pay in and get benefits from that.

It's a supremely simple principle I don't think conservatives get. Whatsoever.

 

[Sallow]

Why are conservatives so crazy?

We have troops in the field involved in multiple actions. Not raising the ceiling is going to hurt them, and hurt them big.

I didn't and don't agree on the extent of the military actions. But I am pretty damned angry that anyone wants to play chicken when it involves our brave young people that are fighting for our country.

This is a ridiculous thing to do.

of course, it's ridiclous. idealogues often refuse to look at ramifications.

and notice, none of them said get out of iraq and afghanistan. but they want to cut...

cut what?

the same things they always want to cut so they can starve government until they can drown it in a bathtub.

notice also that not a single one said... raise income tax a couple of percentage points on people earning over a half million or even a million... or said tax estates over 6 million dollars.

this isn't about fiscal responsibility... it's about the 'ihategovernment' contingent.

Idealogues? Our social engineering in the name of do goodism, brought to us mainly by dems, has brought us to the precipice of disaster. It ain't just one idea that brought us to this carnival. You can throw in military spending too if you want but that's not the ultimate problem. They're both destroying us.

"Do goodism" is what brought a middle class to this country. Getting away from the notion that "Governance" is ordained by a Deity..or inherited..is what led to the American Revolution in the first place.

Gosh.

 

[boedicca]

People form governments because collectively there are things that get done the indivdual can't do. And there's a social pact that comes along with that. Pay in and get benefits from that.

It's a supremely simple principle I don't think conservatives get. Whatsoever.

That is sophistry.

The U.S. government was formed to protect individual liberty with a limited government.

It was not formed to create a transfer payment system.

 

[Jarhead]

Why are conservatives so crazy?

We have troops in the field involved in multiple actions. Not raising the ceiling is going to hurt them, and hurt them big.

I didn't and don't agree on the extent of the military actions. But I am pretty damned angry that anyone wants to play chicken when it involves our brave young people that are fighting for our country.

This is a ridiculous thing to do.

Why not cut out other areas?
I agree...dont make it harder for the military to do the jobs.
Instead, enough with trying to make Americans as comfortable as possible.
We dont deserve it.
We need to earn it...ON OUR OWN.

What the heck are you talking about? Why do you think people form governments in the first place? To be "uncomfortable"? Absolutely not.

People form governments because collectively there are things that get done the indivdual can't do. And there's a social pact that comes along with that. Pay in and get benefits from that.

It's a supremely simple principle I don't think conservatives get. Whatsoever.

I disagree wholeheartedly.

Government, in my eyes, we designed to handle issues for the people that the people themselves do not have the resources to handle. Internatiuonal realtions, border defense, natural disasters, etc.

But I do not see government as a body that has the responsibility to help me out if I make a bad decision....or the wrong decision (bad or good).

Conservatives believe in personal responsibility. Seems those that are not conservative have trouble understanding this one basic premise.

 

[Sallow]

Why not cut out other areas?
I agree...dont make it harder for the military to do the jobs.
Instead, enough with trying to make Americans as comfortable as possible.
We dont deserve it.
We need to earn it...ON OUR OWN.

What the heck are you talking about? Why do you think people form governments in the first place? To be "uncomfortable"? Absolutely not.

People form governments because collectively there are things that get done the indivdual can't do. And there's a social pact that comes along with that. Pay in and get benefits from that.

It's a supremely simple principle I don't think conservatives get. Whatsoever.

I disagree wholeheartedly.

Government, in my eyes, we designed to handle issues for the people that the people themselves do not have the resources to handle. Internatiuonal realtions, border defense, natural disasters, etc.

But I do not see government as a body that has the responsibility to help me out if I make a bad decision....or the wrong decision (bad or good).

Conservatives believe in personal responsibility. Seems those that are not conservative have trouble understanding this one basic premise.

Bullshit.

Primitive governments had nothing to do with "Borders or international relations".

 

[LordBrownTrout]

of course, it's ridiclous. idealogues often refuse to look at ramifications.

and notice, none of them said get out of iraq and afghanistan. but they want to cut...

cut what?

the same things they always want to cut so they can starve government until they can drown it in a bathtub.

notice also that not a single one said... raise income tax a couple of percentage points on people earning over a half million or even a million... or said tax estates over 6 million dollars.

this isn't about fiscal responsibility... it's about the 'ihategovernment' contingent.

Idealogues? Our social engineering in the name of do goodism, brought to us mainly by dems, has brought us to the precipice of disaster. It ain't just one idea that brought us to this carnival. You can throw in military spending too if you want but that's not the ultimate problem. They're both destroying us.

"Do goodism" is what brought a middle class to this country. Getting away from the notion that "Governance" is ordained by a Deity..or inherited..is what led to the American Revolution in the first place.

Gosh.

I think bioeddica hit the note. Government's purpose is to guarantee our individual liberties. Freedom of religion, rights endowed only by our creator, pursuit of happyness. Deity is what made us great along with the founders being wise enough to know that religion couldn't be forced upon anyone. It's an amazing paradox that worked. Centralized government made us weak.

 

[uptownlivin90]

I'll say this again.

The first step to this problem is cutting traumatically defense spending, closing bases overseas in Europe and Asia, and scaling back USAID. You want the world to invest in America again? You want to show the World that we are actually serious about our debt obligations?

That is the best way of showing them that we are.

The world believes that America is interested in doing nothing but building this huge unsustainable empire and that we are clearly declining to the point where it is becoming obvious that we can no longer afford to do so.

This step will show them otherwise (unless that actually is what our politicians are bent on doing and in that case this post means nothing).

After we stop trying to police the world, we can gain enough confidence to make gradual and serious domestic spending cuts without harming US tax payers. We can begin the process of privatizing social security and ending the prohibition of drugs. We can also gradually eliminate corporate welfare. Following a plan like this we can cut the budget 2% every year until we've cut it by atleast 40%. I mean it's not that hard, it just takes REAL critical thinking. You know the kind that many other countries that have rising economies have, and we just seem to not have at all.

 

[boedicca]

Correction: the government's role is to protect rights - not guarantee them.

The government cannot protect ill intentioned people from infringing upon one's rights - but it can provide a legal remedy when such occurs.

 

[Jarhead]

What the heck are you talking about? Why do you think people form governments in the first place? To be "uncomfortable"? Absolutely not.

People form governments because collectively there are things that get done the indivdual can't do. And there's a social pact that comes along with that. Pay in and get benefits from that.

It's a supremely simple principle I don't think conservatives get. Whatsoever.

I disagree wholeheartedly.

Government, in my eyes, we designed to handle issues for the people that the people themselves do not have the resources to handle. Internatiuonal realtions, border defense, natural disasters, etc.

But I do not see government as a body that has the responsibility to help me out if I make a bad decision....or the wrong decision (bad or good).

Conservatives believe in personal responsibility. Seems those that are not conservative have trouble understanding this one basic premise.

Bullshit.

Primitive governments had nothing to do with "Borders or international relations".

Our government did...from day 1.
and that is all you had to say about my post?
Make reference to primitive governments?
I thoiught this debate was about the US government.

 

[Sallow]

Idealogues? Our social engineering in the name of do goodism, brought to us mainly by dems, has brought us to the precipice of disaster. It ain't just one idea that brought us to this carnival. You can throw in military spending too if you want but that's not the ultimate problem. They're both destroying us.

"Do goodism" is what brought a middle class to this country. Getting away from the notion that "Governance" is ordained by a Deity..or inherited..is what led to the American Revolution in the first place.

Gosh.

I think bioeddica hit the note. Government's purpose is to guarantee our individual liberties. Freedom of religion, rights endowed only by our creator, pursuit of happyness. Deity is what made us great along with the founders being wise enough to know that religion couldn't be forced upon anyone. It's an amazing paradox that worked. Centralized government made us weak.

No it's not.

Governments have been around before organized religion.

The main purpose of government is the distribution of goods and services, and shared responsibilities to make that purpose possible.

It has been from the time of Hunter/Gatherers until the Complex systems we see today.

Everything else are abstracts..and in many cases, distractions.

 

[JWBooth]

Here are the eligible areas you can cut.

10% from each today. Some more tomorrow.
Where does DOJ fit in that graphic?
Load 'em up from where ever they are at, bring 'em home, and slice the shit out of that great big red obscenity.

 

[Sallow]

I'll say this again.

The first step to this problem is cutting traumatically defense spending, closing bases overseas in Europe and Asia, and scaling back USAID. You want the world to invest in America again? You want to show the World that we are actually serious about our debt obligations?

That is the best way of showing them that we are.

The world believes that America is interested in doing nothing but building this huge unsustainable empire and that we are clearly declining to the point where it is becoming obvious that we can no longer afford to do so.

This step will show them otherwise (unless that actually is what our politicians are bent on doing and in that case this post means nothing).

After we stop trying to police the world, we can gain enough confidence to make gradual and serious domestic spending cuts without harming US tax payers. We can begin the process of privatizing social security and ending the prohibition of drugs. We can also gradually eliminate corporate welfare. Following a plan like this we can cut the budget 2% every year until we've cut it by atleast 40%. I mean it's not that hard, it just takes REAL critical thinking. You know the kind that many other countries that have rising economies have, and we just seem to not have at all.

Thats a good debate for the congress to have. Problem is..they won't have it.

And shutting down the government, as the Republicans want to do..is not that debate.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

"Do goodism" is what brought a middle class to this country. Getting away from the notion that "Governance" is ordained by a Deity..or inherited..is what led to the American Revolution in the first place.

Gosh.

I think bioeddica hit the note. Government's purpose is to guarantee our individual liberties. Freedom of religion, rights endowed only by our creator, pursuit of happyness. Deity is what made us great along with the founders being wise enough to know that religion couldn't be forced upon anyone. It's an amazing paradox that worked. Centralized government made us weak.

No it's not.

Governments have been around before organized religion.

The main purpose of government is the distribution of goods and services, and shared responsibilities to make that purpose possible.

It has been from the time of Hunter/Gatherers until the Complex systems we see today.

Everything else are abstracts..and in many cases, distractions.

What goods and services would that be? What could government provide that citizens can't? I have more faith in my fellow man than some bureaucrat who takes in money and never earns it ie taxes. I think this is where our ideologies do a 180. Government's sole purpose is for the protection of it's citizens. From there, it should be all us figuring everything out.