should minimum wage be mandated?

[auditor0007]

If you pay peanuts you hire monkeys.
If companies paid substandard wages, they would get substandard people, and their profits would suck.
The min wage has destroyed large segments of entry level jobs in this country. When gov't sets a floor on anything they increase demand and decrease supply. It is basic econ 101.

I would really like to see some stats on that statement. Can you please direct us to some of those statistics that show large segments of entry level jobs being lost in the US? Sorry, but I don't buy it.

First of all, the minimum wage, even after the recent increase, is still much lower in real dollars than it was thirty or forty years ago. Secondly, most minimum wage jobs are entry level, and also part-time, which means those workers do not receive any benefits, making their pay extremely low. Honestly, if you can't make a profit on a business paying minimum wage, then you really don't have a viable business to begin with.

And by the way, I am an employer. My company is small, but I do have to consider wages as they are my biggest expense.

 

[auditor0007]

how? its not like only only business would drop the salaries on unskilled people, companies would across the board and people would be stuck.

If most people make more than the min wage then how would that happen since companies are already paying a market wage for their higher-skilled employees?
and you assertions about illegals should tell you what the actual market wage is for those jobs. If I could hire two illegal for the cost of one legal worker and get the same, or better, productivity, I sure would be doing it.

the "actual market wage" piece depends on which way you look at it. illegals will work for less because in their own country the money is worth way more. they also don't pay taxes on their wages. people paying taxes, actually "in" the system couldn't survive on what those people do. its similar to computer programming jobs getting shipped to india where companies can pay 1/4 of the salary even though they are qualified, educated americans to do it

People working for minimum wage cannot survive on the money they make. If they are high school students or college students, that is one thing. However, anyone trying to support a family on minimum wage is also receiving government aid because there is no way to support a family on minimum wage. So if we remove the minimum wage and pay people even less, than we will just turn around and pay them more through social programs. Either that, or we'll have a lot of people living on the streets.

 

[auditor0007]

Of course minimum wage shouldn't be mandated. Feudalism would be a far more efficient method of ensuring that the dregs of society learn and know their place. Not everyone deserves the finer things in life like a fully belly, clothing and shelter. What a silly, utopian fantasy that is!

Have you ever wondered what would happen if everyone in the US had a Masters Degree or better? Where would they all work? Who would clean the toilets? Who would flip the burgers?

First of all, not everyone can or will be a doctor, lawyer, or some skilled laborer. There always will be those who just don't cut it for whatever reason. Do we want those people living in the streets? Would that be good for America? Minimum wage is exactly that; it is grossly minimum, but that's okay. At least it gives them something and some hope.

I have a personal story about minimum wage. I have a client who pays most of his employees minimum wage. He runs a retail operation with numerous stores. His theft rate is pretty high compared to his competitors, and his turnover is atrocious. In the end, he ends up paying so much more in training costs due to high turnover than he would if he just paid his employees a little more.

Again, to me it boils down to the fact that if you can't make a profit paying minimum wage, then your business is not viable in the first place. By the way, this client makes enough money that he has his own private jet. He isn't hurting by any means.

 

[auditor0007]

Of course minimum wage shouldn't be mandated. Feudalism would be a far more efficient method of ensuring that the dregs of society learn and know their place. Not everyone deserves the finer things in life like a fully belly, clothing and shelter. What a silly, utopian fantasy that is!

Where shall we get the money to pay higher minimum wages? Cut the pay for the people who DID work harder to get where they are?

Or, should we just print more?

I'm not sure that this thread involved raising the minimum wage as it asked whether the minimum wage hurts or helps based on its current level. While I support the minimum wage, I don't support any additonal increases beyond any that are already in place.

 

[auditor0007]

What do you think they are worth?

And $8 per hour results in an annual salary of $16,640.

Do you think that $16,640 per year is a livable wage?


And your $8 per hour burger flipper at McDs...if they flip burgers and end up selling two Big Macs in an hour, they have paid for themselves.

It's not livable for me; thus I don't flip burgers. I want more for myself.

Oh, and if they sell 2 burgers in an hour, they haven't paid for themselves.. Yuu're forgetting the cost of materials and other overhead.

I'm not forgetting that.

What McDonalds only sells only 2 Big Macs in an hour?

The next 25-50 would pay for all of the rest of the over head and then the rest would be profit.

How many McDonalds have you seen closing their doors lately, even with the bad economy?

 

[auditor0007]

Minimum wage ultimately hurts the worker, just like student loans hurt the student.

How do student loans hurt the student?

For many people, they would not be a student if they did not have student loans.

Maybe these people just want everyone to go on welfare instead of making 8 bucks an hour? I don't get the Catch 22 of some of the posters on here. Not everyone is capable of going to college, but they are capable of working full time jobs for a decent wage, trying to support themselves and maybe their family.

We shouldn't pay for welfare either, lol.

 

[auditor0007]

I really don't know what people find so offensive about a minimum wage. The government imposes A LOT of regulations on business that translate DIRECTLY into higher costs. I would think that regulations preventing them from exploiting the poor and uneducated would be more on the "tolerable" end of the spectrum, whereas making companies spend billions to jump through Sarbanes Oxley hoops is totally fucking ridiculous.

There is a big problem when it comes to ideology and reality. Can you imagine where we would be today if there never had been a minimum wage or if unions had never been allowed to exist, or if there never had been any labor laws?

We'd be like Mexico or many other countries where there are a few very wealthy and the rest of the people are poor. There would be no middle class. Why is it that the countries with the greatest GNP are those who support higher wages even for their lowest income earners?

 

[auditor0007]

I don't support a living wage and look at minimum wage as entry level, student and part time wages. However, the minimum wage still remains woefully low.
When I started working, I was paid $1.85 an hour. It sounds low by todays standards but I could earn enough over the summer to pay my College tuition. The wage has roughly tripled over the last 35 years while everthing else has gone up five to six times.
The argument that it is costing jobs has been used to artificially hold down the wage as well as other low end wages. We have created a working poor in this country who can't afford housing, healthcare or education expensed.

Every price has gone up that much, with the exception of wages. Thank inflation for that, thank you, Jimmy Carter.
The argument that is costs job has been firmly established. No more so than recently, when the unemployment rate for black teenagers hit over 50%, having been 30+% just a few months ago.

In a bad economy, people without high school diplomas are going to have a tough time finding a job at any rate. Nearly 50% of all blacks do not graduate in the US, which is disaster. But that being the case, it is understandable why employment rates among young blacks is so low.

 

[auditor0007]

Do you think that $16,640 per year is a livable wage?

Of course not. Herein lies the impetus to not try to make a living at a minimum wage job. What a fucktard.

So.. why not just say the minimum wage is $50,000/year?

Of course it's a liveable wage. Who gets to define liveable? Most people working that are entry level people, often living at home. It's perfectly fine for that. And most such people don't stay in those jobs long but get raises and move on to more skilled work.

If only that were true. There is a substantial percentage of people who never move beyond that minimum wage job. They may well be hard workers, but they just will never have the skills to move beyond that. One way or another, we're going to pay for those people. I would rather be it with them working than just taking hand outs.

 

[Sidestreamer]

If you pay peanuts you hire monkeys.

No. Actually, you hire illegals under the table. They'll take a peanut shell when you're supposed to hand over at least half the bag, and you can't really stretch that peanut shell into anything livable in America.

Along with immigration enforcement this is why we need minimum wages. if it goes to an unsustainably low bidder like your typical illegal, we'll eventually be forced to live by their standard.

If companies paid substandard wages, they would get substandard people, and their profits would suck.

An invalid assumption.

The min wage has destroyed large segments of entry level jobs in this country. When gov't sets a floor on anything they increase demand and decrease supply. It is basic econ 101.

Higher minimum wages might make the the jobs less sustainable, but it never ends up working that way for most major companies... why is that?

 

[auditor0007]

They have to pay them back. And that hurts.

This is true.

In all seriousness though, most people couldn't afford college without them.

The world needs ditch diggers too.

If we instituted slavery again, it would probably cost more than paying minimum wage.

 

[auditor0007]

Obviously it is, otherwise employers would be doing just that.
Why is the 100/hr min wage a straw man? What would be wrong with a $100/hr min wage?

Yea Rabbi...you tell em

How bout a $1000 an hour wage? That will show them stoopid Librals

No, seriously. I want to hear your version as to why a $100/hr min wage is wrong. Many people actually earn that much. Why not entry level workers?

And this is exactly why anything you say cannot be taken seriously.

 

[Sidestreamer]

Yea Rabbi...you tell em

How bout a $1000 an hour wage? That will show them stoopid Librals

No, seriously. I want to hear your version as to why a $100/hr min wage is wrong. Many people actually earn that much. Why not entry level workers?

And this is exactly why anything you say cannot be taken seriously.

I'll take a bat at it:

Rabbi, the minimum wage isn't designed to do anything but prevent the standard of living from dropping down to that of a third-world nation. It's not designed to stimulate the economy.

Next?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

No, seriously. I want to hear your version as to why a $100/hr min wage is wrong. Many people actually earn that much. Why not entry level workers?

And this is exactly why anything you say cannot be taken seriously.

I'll take a bat at it:

Rabbi, the minimum wage isn't designed to do anything but prevent the standard of living from dropping down to that of a third-world nation. It's not designed to stimulate the economy.

Next?

Except mandating $100/hour wages would not stimulate the economy, it would lead to massive unemployment. Which goes to show the fallacy of any minimum wage. If you make it illegal for people to work under a certain wage then there is going to be more unemployment because not every job will be worth the mandated wage.

 

[auditor0007]

And this is exactly why anything you say cannot be taken seriously.

I'll take a bat at it:

Rabbi, the minimum wage isn't designed to do anything but prevent the standard of living from dropping down to that of a third-world nation. It's not designed to stimulate the economy.

Next?

Except mandating $100/hour wages would not stimulate the economy, it would lead to massive unemployment. Which goes to show the fallacy of any minimum wage. If you make it illegal for people to work under a certain wage then there is going to be more unemployment because not every job will be worth the mandated wage.

Comparing a $100 per hour minimum wage to $7.25 does not show the fallacy of any minimum wage.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I'll take a bat at it:

Rabbi, the minimum wage isn't designed to do anything but prevent the standard of living from dropping down to that of a third-world nation. It's not designed to stimulate the economy.

Next?

Except mandating $100/hour wages would not stimulate the economy, it would lead to massive unemployment. Which goes to show the fallacy of any minimum wage. If you make it illegal for people to work under a certain wage then there is going to be more unemployment because not every job will be worth the mandated wage.

Comparing a $100 per hour minimum wage to $7.25 does not show the fallacy of any minimum wage.

The same principle applies to mandating $100/hour as mandating $7.25/hour. If you can see how one leads to unemployment you can see how the other does as well.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

No, seriously. I want to hear your version as to why a $100/hr min wage is wrong. Many people actually earn that much. Why not entry level workers?

And this is exactly why anything you say cannot be taken seriously.

I'll take a bat at it:

Rabbi, the minimum wage isn't designed to do anything but prevent the standard of living from dropping down to that of a third-world nation. It's not designed to stimulate the economy.

Next?

Sorry...IMHO you are mistaken. Minimum wage increases are to allow for flucuations in the buying power of a dollar. Even if you have a job and minimum wage never changes you still qualify for a plethora of social programs designed to help the less fortunate...like food stamps, WIC and federal health insurance plans for the poor. These services provided by the government are in fact "income" and have a tangible value. If the minimum wage rises you are apt to use less of these services because of program guidelines but if the wage doesn't change you will use the same amount and more as consumer prices go up.

 

[Sidestreamer]

And this is exactly why anything you say cannot be taken seriously.

I'll take a bat at it:

Rabbi, the minimum wage isn't designed to do anything but prevent the standard of living from dropping down to that of a third-world nation. It's not designed to stimulate the economy.

Next?

Except mandating $100/hour wages would not stimulate the economy, it would lead to massive unemployment. Which goes to show the fallacy of any minimum wage. If you make it illegal for people to work under a certain wage then there is going to be more unemployment because not every job will be worth the mandated wage.

I'm not sure you're addressing my post.

 

[Sidestreamer]

And this is exactly why anything you say cannot be taken seriously.

I'll take a bat at it:

Rabbi, the minimum wage isn't designed to do anything but prevent the standard of living from dropping down to that of a third-world nation. It's not designed to stimulate the economy.

Next?

Sorry...IMHO you are mistaken. Minimum wage increases are to allow for flucuations in the buying power of a dollar. Even if you have a job and minimum wage never changes you still qualify for a plethora of social programs designed to help the less fortunate...like food stamps, WIC and federal health insurance plans for the poor. These services provided by the government are in fact "income" and have a tangible value. If the minimum wage rises you are apt to use less of these services because of program guidelines but if the wage doesn't change you will use the same amount and more as consumer prices go up.

Well, if you're by yourself or with one other person and you're working 40 hours a week, all year long at the new federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour, you're earning about $15K, above the poverty line, which would disqualify you from some of those services. Two people, it's about 30K, and for 2, that's 200 percent the poverty level.

2009 Federal Poverty Guidelines

Based on that math, the social programs you're referring to are for the under-employed...

 

[PatekPhilippe]

I'll take a bat at it:

Rabbi, the minimum wage isn't designed to do anything but prevent the standard of living from dropping down to that of a third-world nation. It's not designed to stimulate the economy.

Next?

Sorry...IMHO you are mistaken. Minimum wage increases are to allow for flucuations in the buying power of a dollar. Even if you have a job and minimum wage never changes you still qualify for a plethora of social programs designed to help the less fortunate...like food stamps, WIC and federal health insurance plans for the poor. These services provided by the government are in fact "income" and have a tangible value. If the minimum wage rises you are apt to use less of these services because of program guidelines but if the wage doesn't change you will use the same amount and more as consumer prices go up.

Well, if you're by yourself or with one other person and you're working 40 hours a week, all year long at the new federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour, you're earning about $15K, above the poverty line, which would disqualify you from some of those services. Two people, it's about 30K, and for 2, that's 200 percent the poverty level.

2009 Federal Poverty Guidelines

Based on that math, the social programs you're referring to are for the under-employed...

I agree.....but then again 15k above the poverty line in some areas is living comfortably whereas in others your in a serious rut. Remember that's a national average and not indicative of all areas of the country. In areas where the cost of living is greater than the national average the guidelines for aid are appropriately adjusted. In one respect you are correct in that many areas often leave standards set at older levels in order to save money on social programs so those people do suffer. That said though...sometimes it's up to the person to improve their own life and not rely too heavily on the government. We must always look out for #1.