She Had A Name...Remembering Mary Jo Kopechne.

[hjmick]

I just love how you continue to bring in your "mays" and your "could have beens" but they don't amount to anything in a discussion that is supposed to be based on FACTS.

You're absolutely right, Dr. Smith.

Fact: Kennedy had been drinking.

Fact: Kennedy was driving the car.

Fact: The car went off Dyke Bridge with two occupants.

Fact: After the accident, only one emerged. Kennedy.

Claim: He tried several times to swim down to reach Kopechne, then rested on the bank for several minutes.

Fact: Kennedy went back to Lawrence Cottage on foot.

Claim: His cousin, Joseph Gargan, and party co-host Paul Markham, then returned to the pond with Kennedy and tried to rescue Kopechne.

Fact: All involved failed to use the telephone at the Lawrence Cottage to call the police for help.

Fact: Kennedy discussed the accident with several people, including his lawyer, before he was contacted by the police

Fact: The next morning, a science teacher and a 15 year-old boy discovered Kennedy's car.

Fact: Police Chief Dominick Arena called Kennedy from the house nearest the bridge. (Fact: Kennedy didn't even stop at a nearby house for help)

Fact: Kopechne's body was discovered by diver John Farrar. Farrar observed that a large amount of air was released from the car when it was righted in the water, he also noted that the trunk when opened was remarkably dry. (this has lead many experts to believe that she suffocated rather than drowned)

Fact: The course chosen by Kennedy led to the death of Mary Jo Kopechne. Whether it was because of his drinking and driving or his lack of action (calling for help at the earliest possible time), the result was the same.

 

[drsmith1072]

I just love how you continue to bring in your "mays" and your "could have beens" but they don't amount to anything in a discussion that is supposed to be based on FACTS.

You're absolutely right, Dr. Smith.

I know I am and that makes you WRONG. LOL

Fact: Kennedy had been drinking.

"had been" drinking is a far cry from being drunk while driving at the time of the accident?? Are you making an accusation that you can't prove??

Fact: Kennedy was driving the car.

That is a fact

Fact: The car went off Dyke Bridge with two occupants.

That too is a fact.

Fact: After the accident, only one emerged. Kennedy.

Fact

Claim: He tried several times to swim down to reach Kopechne, then rested on the bank for several minutes.

Do you have any reason to not believe that he tried or do you assume that he didn't because it serves your purpose?

Fact: Kennedy went back to Lawrence Cottage on foot.

Well he couldn't very well drive the car now could he??

Claim: His cousin, Joseph Gargan, and party co-host Paul Markham, then returned to the pond with Kennedy and tried to rescue Kopechne.

So you are saying they all lied??

Fact: All involved failed to use the telephone at the Lawrence Cottage to call the police for help.

Yes they did and kennedy was charged and plead to leaving the scene.

Fact: Kennedy discussed the accident with several people, including his lawyer, before he was contacted by the police

Are you sure about that?? Because I read that he walked into the edgartown police station, turned himself in and gave a statement.

Fact: The next morning, a science teacher and a 15 year-old boy discovered Kennedy's car.

Never heard the specifics about who discovered the car and not sure what that has to do with anything but I read it was two amatuer fishermen.

Fact: Police Chief Dominick Arena called Kennedy from the house nearest the bridge. (Fact: Kennedy didn't even stop at a nearby house for help)

OK?? So wasn't kennedy making calls from the payphone at the ferry?? How did the chief know to contact kennedy at the payphone at the ferry? LOL Your story doesn't seem to make any sense.

Fact: Kopechne's body was discovered by diver John Farrar. Farrar observed that a large amount of air was released from the car when it was righted in the water, he also noted that the trunk when opened was remarkably dry. (this has lead many experts to believe that she suffocated rather than drowned)

WOW imagine that, more nonexpert OPINIONS offered as fact. LOL His BELIEFS are NOT FACT.

Fact: The course chosen by Kennedy led to the death of Mary Jo Kopechne. Whether it was because of his drinking and driving or his lack of action (calling for help at the earliest possible time), the result was the same.

Then you end it all with your OPINION BASED ASSUMPTION that kennedy's actions after the accident directly led to her death when you have offered NOTHING FACTUAL to PROVE that to be the case.
All you have offered in a failed attempt to back up your BELIEFS are OPINIONS and ASSUMPTIONS.

 

[Bern80]

For those of you trying so hard to defend Ted's actions, perhaps you can read about his opinion of himself on the mater.....

Kennedy memoir reveals remorse over Chappaquiddick - Yahoo! News

 

[VaYank5150]

For those of you trying so hard to defend Ted's actions, perhaps you can read about his opinion of himself on the mater.....

Has Laura Bush written a book yet detailing her remorse?

 

[Care4all]

For those of you trying so hard to defend Ted's actions, perhaps you can read about his opinion of himself on the mater.....

Kennedy memoir reveals remorse over Chappaquiddick - Yahoo! News

Who's defending him? We know he made a mistake. A multitude of cowardly mistakes and we know he has been remorseful for such...we know he did not murder anyone as the right, falsely claims with certainty ....this is what we are defending and his memoirs do nothing to discredit what most democrats are saying about him...he eventually turned his life around and it obviously wasn't easy, with all his baggage.

 

[drsmith1072]

For those of you trying so hard to defend Ted's actions, perhaps you can read about his opinion of himself on the mater.....

Kennedy memoir reveals remorse over Chappaquiddick - Yahoo! News

I don't think anyone is defending his actions after the accident and just as he said those actions were inexcusable and he was charged and plead to leaving the scene.
I am merely pointing out how the righties here want to jump to conclusions, make assumptions and then try to claim that they are presenting facts when they clearly are NOT.

 

[Bern80]

I don't believe anyone on the right is accusing Ted of murder. What I am seeing here is that in death, many on the left are attempting to hold Ted up as a beacon of righteousness. I admire his devotion to his causes, though I disagree with most of them. I would NOT hold him as an example of someone with good character.

 

[Sinatra]

I don't believe anyone on the right is accusing Ted of murder. What I am seeing here is that in death, many on the left are attempting to hold Ted up as a beacon of righteousness. I admire his devotion to his causes, though I disagree with most of them. I would NOT hold him as an example of someone with good character.

And Teddy transformed himself into a Democrat that would have been unrecognizable to his brothers - particularly JFK.

 

[Againsheila]

I don't believe anyone on the right is accusing Ted of murder. What I am seeing here is that in death, many on the left are attempting to hold Ted up as a beacon of righteousness. I admire his devotion to his causes, though I disagree with most of them. I would NOT hold him as an example of someone with good character.

I'm not on the right, but I accuse him of murder. He knew she was conscious, he didn't go to the nearest house and get help. If that had been my daughter, I would have been crying "murder" and I have a feeling that most of you would have been as well had she been your daughter.

He left her to die in that car in 6 feet of water. There is no excuse for that. His family paid her family over $100,000 not to have an autopsy, why do you think that was? I certainly wouldn't have accepted the blood money.

 

[Againsheila]

For those of you trying so hard to defend Ted's actions, perhaps you can read about his opinion of himself on the mater.....

Has Laura Bush written a book yet detailing her remorse?

Laura killed a man in a car accident. She didn't leave him to drown or asphyxiate and pass 1/2 dozen houses where she could have sought help. Apples and oranges....

 

[Sinatra]

For those of you trying so hard to defend Ted's actions, perhaps you can read about his opinion of himself on the mater.....

Has Laura Bush written a book yet detailing her remorse?

Laura killed a man in a car accident. She didn't leave him to drown or asphyxiate and pass 1/2 dozen houses where she could have sought help. Apples and oranges....

Not to mention Ted Kennedy was a grown man and an elected Senator with plans to run for President just a few years after the Kopechne death.

At best he was certainy guilty of a complete lack of character - and no amount of years in the Senate ever changed that - hell, it likely worsened it...

 

[drsmith1072]

I don't believe anyone on the right is accusing Ted of murder. What I am seeing here is that in death, many on the left are attempting to hold Ted up as a beacon of righteousness. I admire his devotion to his causes, though I disagree with most of them. I would NOT hold him as an example of someone with good character.

You obviously haven't read through the thread because that is EXACTLY what some are accusing him of.

 

[drsmith1072]

For those of you trying so hard to defend Ted's actions, perhaps you can read about his opinion of himself on the mater.....

Has Laura Bush written a book yet detailing her remorse?

Laura killed a man in a car accident. She didn't leave him to drown or asphyxiate and pass 1/2 dozen houses where she could have sought help. Apples and oranges....

LOL. so two car accidents and two people die and you wish to hold one accountable and make lame excuses for the other. LOL (sarcasm) no, you are definitely not a righty. LOL

BTW why is one life less valuable than the other?? Based on your previously stated belief that ted murdered mary jo then that standard should apply evenly and fairly to any life lost in a tragic accident. So why does one life not matter to you? Would you be cryng murder if laura's accident had killed your son?

Although it is nice to know that even as you claim not to be a righty that you base your argument on the righty assumption that if he had stopped at the first house that she would have been rescued when there is NO PROOF to substantiate that BELIEF.

 

[nodoginnafight]

A horrible tragic mistake and one that conflicts with my own values.
But I'll bet none of us want to be remembered for the worst thing we ever did ....
We are all mixtures of good and bad - if it makes you feel like your "more" good when you dwell on someone else's bad - then you are fooling yourself.

 

[Againsheila]

Has Laura Bush written a book yet detailing her remorse?

Laura killed a man in a car accident. She didn't leave him to drown or asphyxiate and pass 1/2 dozen houses where she could have sought help. Apples and oranges....

LOL. so two car accidents and two people die and you wish to hold one accountable and make lame excuses for the other. LOL (sarcasm) no, you are definitely not a righty. LOL

BTW why is one life less valuable than the other?? Based on your previously stated belief that ted murdered mary jo then that standard should apply evenly and fairly to any life lost in a tragic accident. So why does one life not matter to you? Would you be cryng murder if laura's accident had killed your son?

Although it is nice to know that even as you claim not to be a righty that you base your argument on the righty assumption that if he had stopped at the first house that she would have been rescued when there is NO PROOF to substantiate that BELIEF.

Again, you are comparing apples to oranges.....Kennedy left Mary Jo there to die, she wasn't dead when he left the scene. He didn't go to the nearest house to get help, he didn't notify anyone, he swam back to the mainland instead.

How interesting that you ignore the fact that the Kennedy family paid off Mary Jo's family to insure there would be no autopsy. Had there been, we would KNOW how she died.

As far as I know, Laura Bush ran a stop sign and killed a guy, that's manslaughter and she should have been charged, but she didn't run away and leave him there to die.

I'm a moderate, I look at both sides of the issue and make my own decision. I'm used to the fanatic left calling me a neo conservative and the fanatic right calling me a liberal. Read through these threads, you'll see where I've been called both.

 

[Ravi]

Laura killed a man in a car accident. She didn't leave him to drown or asphyxiate and pass 1/2 dozen houses where she could have sought help. Apples and oranges....

LOL. so two car accidents and two people die and you wish to hold one accountable and make lame excuses for the other. LOL (sarcasm) no, you are definitely not a righty. LOL

BTW why is one life less valuable than the other?? Based on your previously stated belief that ted murdered mary jo then that standard should apply evenly and fairly to any life lost in a tragic accident. So why does one life not matter to you? Would you be cryng murder if laura's accident had killed your son?

Although it is nice to know that even as you claim not to be a righty that you base your argument on the righty assumption that if he had stopped at the first house that she would have been rescued when there is NO PROOF to substantiate that BELIEF.

Again, you are comparing apples to oranges.....Kennedy left Mary Jo there to die, she wasn't dead when he left the scene. He didn't go to the nearest house to get help, he didn't notify anyone, he swam back to the mainland instead.

How interesting that you ignore the fact that the Kennedy family paid off Mary Jo's family to insure there would be no autopsy. Had there been, we would KNOW how she died.

As far as I know, Laura Bush ran a stop sign and killed a guy, that's manslaughter and she should have been charged, but she didn't run away and leave him there to die.

I'm a moderate, I look at both sides of the issue and make my own decision. I'm used to the fanatic left calling me a neo conservative and the fanatic right calling me a liberal. Read through these threads, you'll see where I've been called both.

You were there, Shelia? Do you have some proof that he didn't try repeatedly to dive down and free her from the car?

 

[Againsheila]

A horrible tragic mistake and one that conflicts with my own values.
But I'll bet none of us want to be remembered for the worst thing we ever did ....
We are all mixtures of good and bad - if it makes you feel like your "more" good when you dwell on someone else's bad - then you are fooling yourself.

The worst thing I ever did never came close to leaving a woman to die in a car in 6 feet of water. I'm sure his family can forget that, I can't.

It's not the accident that I blame him for, it's leaving her there to die while he tried to make an alibi for himself. If he had the energy and fitness to swim to the mainland, why wasn't he able to get her out of a car in 6 feet of water? I truly believe that had he gone to the first house for help, she would be alive today. In my mind, that's murder, not manslaughter. Manslaughter would have been if she died immediately or if he had gone for help immediately and nothing could be done.

He's dead now, and he's paid for his crimes but I'm not gonna sit here and listen to a bunch of Teddy worshipers talk about how wonderful he was.

 

[nodoginnafight]

A horrible tragic mistake and one that conflicts with my own values.
But I'll bet none of us want to be remembered for the worst thing we ever did ....
We are all mixtures of good and bad - if it makes you feel like your "more" good when you dwell on someone else's bad - then you are fooling yourself.

The worst thing I ever did never came close to leaving a woman to die in a car in 6 feet of water. I'm sure his family can forget that, I can't.

It's not the accident that I blame him for, it's leaving her there to die while he tried to make an alibi for himself. If he had the energy and fitness to swim to the mainland, why wasn't he able to get her out of a car in 6 feet of water? I truly believe that had he gone to the first house for help, she would be alive today. In my mind, that's murder, not manslaughter. Manslaughter would have been if she died immediately or if he had gone for help immediately and nothing could be done.

He's dead now, and he's paid for his crimes but I'm not gonna sit here and listen to a bunch of Teddy worshipers talk about how wonderful he was.

IMHO - He did some wonderful things and he did at least one horrible thing. Maybe political hyperpartisanship only allows you to acknowledge one side of the man.

 

[Againsheila]

A horrible tragic mistake and one that conflicts with my own values.
But I'll bet none of us want to be remembered for the worst thing we ever did ....
We are all mixtures of good and bad - if it makes you feel like your "more" good when you dwell on someone else's bad - then you are fooling yourself.

The worst thing I ever did never came close to leaving a woman to die in a car in 6 feet of water. I'm sure his family can forget that, I can't.

It's not the accident that I blame him for, it's leaving her there to die while he tried to make an alibi for himself. If he had the energy and fitness to swim to the mainland, why wasn't he able to get her out of a car in 6 feet of water? I truly believe that had he gone to the first house for help, she would be alive today. In my mind, that's murder, not manslaughter. Manslaughter would have been if she died immediately or if he had gone for help immediately and nothing could be done.

He's dead now, and he's paid for his crimes but I'm not gonna sit here and listen to a bunch of Teddy worshipers talk about how wonderful he was.

IMHO - He did some wonderful things and he did at least one horrible thing. Maybe political hyperpartisanship only allows you to acknowledge one side of the man.

He did a lot of horrible things.....the worst of which was leaving a young woman to die in six feet of water.

hyperpatisanship would maybe allow me to only acknowledge one side of the man, if I actually were partisan. I'm a moderate. I watch both sides make fools of themselves gushing over their many flawed leaders which are leading our country into ruin and each of you is as guilty as the people you elect. Yeah, I can say that, I actually voted 3rd party.

 

[CaféAuLait]

If the water was flowing it was bringing in air to the ice pocket. Plus, her extremely low temperature ensured she didn't need much oxygen.

You do realize the water was moving "a strong current" for Kopechne too? That was the testimony of Kennedy and his Lawyer friends....

and was the car submerged?? A layer of oxygen beneath a sheet of ice on top of the water can constantly gert replenished by the flowing water. If the car was fully submerged or the point where the alleged air bubble was trapped was under the water level then the oxygen could not be replenished. Got any more spin?

Not to mention once again the diver on scene said he felt she was alive for at least 2 hours.... we were not there so I will go by the experts from back then and those witnesses.

Do you often base your OPINIONS of factual events on the feelings or beliefs of person with no firsthand knowledge of the actual event?? His BELIEF that she was alive for at least two hours is only a belief with NOTHING to substantiate it. So why do you call him an expert?? How many bodies had he recovered at that time that would amke you believe he was an expert??

Uh the LINKS I provided says he was a naval trained diving expert! Might help if you had bother to read them. This expert testified she "probably was alive for a least 2 hours"

Feel free to scroll back for the links--- I posted them in several posts.