School drops the Pledge of Allegiance

[BrianH]

I don't think it's that non-believers are whiners. I think in every group,there are people who need to vocalize. I think some things aren't worth bothering about. Given the nefarious beginnings of the "under G-d" section of the pledge, I say the parts around it, myself. No biggie... and it has nothing to do with belief, since I'm a believer. Just my own little private protest against the McCarthy Era.

Well that's exactly what I mean. You've put it in better words than me. (I hate when you do that). Some people just have such a chip-on their shoulder that shouldn't even exist. So the country has a pledge that says "under God", just omit it when you say and all is well. That doesn't mean you have to ruin everyone elses traditions and beliefs to get it done. Texas actually added "Under God" to it's pledge this last year... It's kind of a crappy pledge (not the under God part), but it just doesn't flow right. I still catch myself saying it without. I just get tired of people going out of their way to make an issue out of something that isn't an issue. LIke the 10 Commandments on a courthouse lawn. Is it really that big of a frickin deal? Does the 10 Commandment statue stick it's foot out and trip every agnostic or atheis that walks a by? Does it condemn them to Hell?<---doesn't matter they don't believe anyway. I'm just saying that nobody forces them to do anything they don't want to do. If they don't want to acknowledge "under God" in the pledge, then don't say it. If you're at a football game and the crowd is praying, just be respectful, sit silent and let them pray without making a scene. Nobody will give them a hard-time for not praying. People just need to get over themselves and learn to tolerate and respect what other people believe.

 

[jillian]

Well that's exactly what I mean. You've put it in better words than me. (I hate when you do that). Some people just have such a chip-on their shoulder that shouldn't even exist. So the country has a pledge that says "under God", just omit it when you say and all is well. That doesn't mean you have to ruin everyone elses traditions and beliefs to get it done. Texas actually added "Under God" to it's pledge this last year... It's kind of a crappy pledge (not the under God part), but it just doesn't flow right. I still catch myself saying it without. I just get tired of people going out of their way to make an issue out of something that isn't an issue. LIke the 10 Commandments on a courthouse lawn. Is it really that big of a frickin deal? Does the 10 Commandment statue stick it's foot out and trip every agnostic or atheis that walks a by? Does it condemn them to Hell?<---doesn't matter they don't believe anyway. I'm just saying that nobody forces them to do anything they don't want to do. If they don't want to acknowledge "under God" in the pledge, then don't say it. If you're at a football game and the crowd is praying, just be respectful, sit silent and let them pray without making a scene. Nobody will give them a hard-time for not praying. People just need to get over themselves and learn to tolerate and respect what other people believe.

People pray at football games? I thought that only happened at Mets' games.



And you said it just fine. I figure if no one's bothering anyone else and it's not government running it, funding it or fostering it... who cares?

 

[BrianH]

People pray at football games? I thought that only happened at Mets' games.



And you said it just fine. I figure if no one's bothering anyone else and it's not government running it, funding it or fostering it... who cares?

We do here in Texas. They're not led by the school, but individual students volunteer to lead them in the press box. They usuall pray for the safety of the players and thank God for the community involvement. So far no one in our town or the one I grew up in ever made a big deal about it.....

 

[Shogun]

Look, rather than non-believers being a bunch of pussy-footed whiners, why don't they just exclude the frickin words "under-God" when they say the pledge. It's just as equivalent as not going to church on Sunday. The majority of people do, you don't. Nobody's holding a gun to their head and making them say it. Hell, no body even makes them say the pledge. My wife had a child in her class that refused to say the pledge, or participate in any parties or holiday events...does that mean we have to stop having parties and holiday parties because one kid doesn't believe in it. Should we spoil all of the fun for other (the majority) of kids for one? It pisses me off when people whine about bull shit like this. Believers (most) don't sit there and bitch at a kid for not saying the pledge or praying at a football game, why can't non-believers do the same. Say the pledge, and just omit "under-GOd" when you say it, simple as that. Why does people have to be such tity-babies about this stuff.

how do you equate NOT going to church with NOT saying the words "under god"? Seems to me, you might as well suggest we be forced to sit in the pew and just not pay attention, or just not stand during the sermon, or any other euphemism for forced observation of a particular dogma. In fact, considering the first amendment, why cant the thumpers simply say it in THEIR OWN pledge just the same as you suggest non-believers do? After all, I"VE got the constitution on my side.. what is on yours?

funny how other groups are just supposed to suck it up when dogma junkies are the majority... but let one single fucking thumper feel slightest against and all of a sudden it's like we are standing in the coliseum and someone just opened the lioncage..


If the irony of the ORIGINAL pledge is lost on you, as well as the entire first amendment-less reason for injecting the dogma, then so be it.

 

[Shogun]

Well that's exactly what I mean. You've put it in better words than me. (I hate when you do that). Some people just have such a chip-on their shoulder that shouldn't even exist. So the country has a pledge that says "under God", just omit it when you say and all is well. That doesn't mean you have to ruin everyone elses traditions and beliefs to get it done. Texas actually added "Under God" to it's pledge this last year... It's kind of a crappy pledge (not the under God part), but it just doesn't flow right. I still catch myself saying it without. I just get tired of people going out of their way to make an issue out of something that isn't an issue. LIke the 10 Commandments on a courthouse lawn. Is it really that big of a frickin deal? Does the 10 Commandment statue stick it's foot out and trip every agnostic or atheis that walks a by? Does it condemn them to Hell?<---doesn't matter they don't believe anyway. I'm just saying that nobody forces them to do anything they don't want to do. If they don't want to acknowledge "under God" in the pledge, then don't say it. If you're at a football game and the crowd is praying, just be respectful, sit silent and let them pray without making a scene. Nobody will give them a hard-time for not praying. People just need to get over themselves and learn to tolerate and respect what other people believe.

oh yes.. fuck the constition as long as people can just NOT say "under god".. hell, why not decorate public courthouses in a year round nativity scene too? people can just LOOK AWAY. Hell, lets just go ahead and add, "Because jesus is our lord, protector, saviour and light of the world" to everything federal since, you know, everyone else can just deal with it and ignore the christian saturation of our COMMON government?




oh yes.. I can see THAT precedent at work.

And, to answer your question, Lets put the fucking KORAN on every small town courthouse and see what kind of a big deal it becomes all of a sudden.

 

[hjmick]

I am a self proclaimed Agnostic. For me it's more than the "under God" portion of the pledge. That's the way it was said when I was in school and it had no adverse effect on my psyche, ultimately I believe the issue is much ado about nothing. That being said, if it is being recited in schools, I believe that God reference should be omitted. Either that or change it once again and have it read "under a god."

The bigger issue for me is the mindless, rote recitation of the Pledge. It smacks of indoctrination. If schools are going to have kids recite the Pledge of Allegiance, and I think there is nothing wrong with that, I believe that they should also be taught it's meaning, the history and origins of the Pledge. The simple repeating of the words with no understanding of what they mean, with no understanding of the Pledge, smacks of the Nazi Youth ceremonies of the late '30s and early '40s.

 

[tigerbob]

and still, not as AWESOME as the original..

Bellamy's original Pledge read, "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. America"

Having read this thread, I've got to question the inclusion of "indivisible" as well.

 

[BrianH]

how do you equate NOT going to church with NOT saying the words "under god"? Seems to me, you might as well suggest we be forced to sit in the pew and just not pay attention, or just not stand during the sermon, or any other euphemism for forced observation of a particular dogma. In fact, considering the first amendment, why cant the thumpers simply say it in THEIR OWN pledge just the same as you suggest non-believers do? After all, I"VE got the constitution on my side.. what is on yours?

Umm...the part that says "Congress shall make now law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."B]

That means I can pray wherever I damn well please. And if enough kids in the classroom want to get together and pray, they by God they can do it.

funny how other groups are just supposed to suck it up when dogma junkies are the majority... but let one single fucking thumper feel slightest against and all of a sudden it's like we are standing in the coliseum and someone just opened the lioncage..

That's damn right...you are supposed to suck it up. Other's suck it up for you. You're bitching about something that was added to the pledge before your ass was born, and if you were born at that time, you weren't old enough to even know what you believe. This is called a democratic republic no? People vote on things and if the majority votes yes, then it happens...if you don't like the system, then get over it or move. I garauntee you that if the majority of Americans were agnostic or atheist, then they could all win a majority vote in taking God out of the pledge of allegance, but until that point, suck it up and just omit it when you say it.

If the irony of the ORIGINAL pledge is lost on you, as well as the entire first amendment-less reason for injecting the dogma, then so be it.

Well let's see. The majority of Americans go to church on Sunday...and you choose not to. Many businesses are closed on Sunday soley for this purpose. An athiest can sit on his front porch and watch all of his neighbors pass his house and go to church. Does that mean he has to go? Or that we have to remove the church from the neighborhood because one resident doesn't believe? It's the same concept. I understand the chip on your shoulder because you bitch about it enough.

 

[BrianH]

oh yes.. fuck the constition as long as people can just NOT say "under god".. hell, why not decorate public courthouses in a year round nativity scene too? people can just LOOK AWAY. Hell, lets just go ahead and add, "Because jesus is our lord, protector, saviour and light of the world" to everything federal since, you know, everyone else can just deal with it and ignore the christian saturation of our COMMON government?




oh yes.. I can see THAT precedent at work.

And, to answer your question, Lets put the fucking KORAN on every small town courthouse and see what kind of a big deal it becomes all of a sudden.

Well I tell you what. When Muslims make up 80%-90% of the frickin American population, then they can vote on it. Until then, keep eating that chip on your shoulder.

 

[jillian]

Well let's see. The majority of Americans go to church on Sunday...and you choose not to. Many businesses are closed on Sunday soley for this purpose. An athiest can sit on his front porch and watch all of his neighbors pass his house and go to church. Does that mean he has to go? Or that we have to remove the church from the neighborhood because one resident doesn't believe? It's the same concept. I understand the chip on your shoulder because you bitch about it enough.

I've never thought that there should be blue laws forcing businesses to be closed on Sundays. If a business owner doesn't want to work Sunday, that should be his or her call, IMO. It's not the job of government to make sure folk honor the sabbath day, is it? (which, btw, is Saturday for me, anyway).

Also, I have to tell ya... if I want to buy a bottle of wine to bring to a friend's house on Sunday afternoon, it really ticks me off that I can't. Grrrrrrr....

 

[BrianH]

I've never thought that there should be blue laws forcing businesses to be closed on Sundays. If a business owner doesn't want to work Sunday, that should be his or her call, IMO. It's not the job of government to make sure folk honor the sabbath day, is it? (which, btw, is Saturday for me, anyway).

Also, I have to tell ya... if I want to buy a bottle of wine to bring to a friend's house on Sunday afternoon, it really ticks me off that I can't. Grrrrrrr....

LOL. I agree. But it's true that many places being closed on Sunday's derive from the tradition of not working on Sunday.

It seems that everyone else is willing to tolerate agnostics and atheists and in some places completely throw out their tradition and history to accomodate and disenfranchise the majority. But they still aren't satisfied or willing to tolerate Christians or other religions.

 

[Nate Peele]

Uhm, I think the real problem here is that they have a cermony for "graduating" fifth grade. Fifth grade? Give me a break.

 

[jillian]

LOL. I agree. But it's true that many places being closed on Sunday's derive from the tradition of not working on Sunday.

It seems that everyone else is willing to tolerate agnostics and atheists and in some places completely throw out their tradition and history to accomodate and disenfranchise the majority. But they still aren't satisfied or willing to tolerate Christians or other religions.

Tradition is fine. It shouldn't be legislated by Blue Laws because not all of us share the same religion. Everyone should be able to choose if it's something we'd close our business for or not. So, if you choose to close shop. Cool. More power to ya. But if I want *my* business closed on Saturday, but opened on Sunday, that should be ok, too. That way we all tolerate each other.

 

[jillian]

Uhm, I think the real problem here is that they have a cermony for "graduating" fifth grade. Fifth grade? Give me a break.

Hey! Watch that! I'm looking forward to my son's 5th grade graduation!

 

[manifold]

Uhm, I think the real problem here is that they have a cermony for "graduating" fifth grade. Fifth grade? Give me a break.

LOL! good point

My wife's niece just had a graduation ceremony for an associates degree at a community college. Way to go! That and a valid I9 will get you a job flippin burgers.

 

[Abelian Sea]

I had a graduation ceremony for fifth grade. It struck me as quite silly, but I figured, "it's for the parents," and went along with it.

We also said the pledge every morning. It did strike me as a little odd in a couple of places. First, pledging alliegence to a flag; they really want me to obey a piece of cloth? What is it going to tell me? Are they hearing voices? It creeped me out. The "under God" part just seemed out of place in an otherwise secular setting; it didn't bother me nearly as much as the first phrase. The "indivisible" part even started to seem a little sinister as I learned more about the Civil War. I did like the term "republic;" it sounded cool and dignified, and made me think of Star Wars, since the good-guy organization in those movies was a remnant of the "old republic."

I got the point of the pledge, though, and was basically okay with it. I thought it was reasonable for me to be expected to declare my loyatly to my country, and I knew my country was rockin' so I was down with doing so. I just started quietly editing it to my tastes: "I pledge alligence, to *mumble* *mumble* the republic *mumble* one nation, *mumble* *mumble* with liberty and justice for all."

 

[Shogun]

Well let's see. The majority of Americans go to church on Sunday...and you choose not to. Many businesses are closed on Sunday soley for this purpose. An athiest can sit on his front porch and watch all of his neighbors pass his house and go to church. Does that mean he has to go? Or that we have to remove the church from the neighborhood because one resident doesn't believe? It's the same concept. I understand the chip on your shoulder because you bitch about it enough.

Yet, HOW does the first amendment validate FORCING a minority to observe the dogma of the majority? It doesn't. And telling people just to "deal with it" isn't a valid answer. YOU may not give a damn but plenty of us do. If you can't fathom how offensive it is to have patriotism paired with dogma then, AGAIN, let's put the fucking koran on court houses and see how long it takes for christians to freak the fuck out.


a business can make it's own decision. FORCING a business to close on Sunday and telling customers that they can drive to the next secular county just doesn't float. In fact, it pretty much illustrates the stupidity of your position.


an ahteist ON A FUCKING PORCH is hardly even REMOTELY close to a kid in a fucking classroom, eh? Do kids get the option of walking inside when the thumping comes out? Do kids get the chance to state THEIR OWN beliefs? NO? Then I guess your incessant wrangling of logic is failing you today, isnt' it?

But, truly, Im still having a good ole guffaw at the idea that taking out god from the pledge is keeping christians from worshipping the loward. THAT has got to be one of the dumbest things I've read on this forum all week. I mean, hell, ALL WE NEED TO DO IS GET THE MAJORITY TO VOTE TO REPLACE THE BILL OF RIGHTS WITH THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, apparently.. right, ya dumb bastard? I mean, of COURSE since it was added before I was born then everyone else should just fucking deal, right? THATS how we rationalized racism too, eh? Why rock the fucking boat, yes? A clear history of dogma junkies hellbent on injecting christianity into the pledge may sit well with you but, AS PER THE FUCKING ARTICLE, score one for the good guys.


beyotch.

 

[Shogun]

Well I tell you what. When Muslims make up 80%-90% of the frickin American population, then they can vote on it. Until then, keep eating that chip on your shoulder.

oh yes.. since it ONLY takes a majority to disregard the bill of rights why don't we just VOTE for slavery to become a fact of our culture again, eh dummy? I mean, the ONLY thing we regard is the will of the majority, right dummy?





I mean, fuck anyone who may NOT be a christian since, CLEARLY, this nation ONLY gives a fuck about the brothas and sistahs of jebus.

 

[manifold]

Is it just me, or are Soggy's diatribes a thousand times more enjoyable when he's actually right?

 

[Ravi]

Shog, and yet you are okay with voting on gay marriage.



I wish you'd make an effort to be consistent.