School Choice

[Wyatt earp]

They pay for both.

Should they be able to withhold taxes to pay for their own security force?

That's a stupid analogy, people who have no kids can't with hold tax dollars for schools, we pay no matter what.

Good point

Why should someone who sends their kid to catholic school receive a voucher while someone without kids gets nothing

But then you bring up everything else, unmarried people have to pay more tax, people that own a home get tax breaks, then people who don't..

Exactly

So why should someone who chooses to send a kid to a private school be paid to do so?

But there just getting their tax dollars back..

Us no kids people still have to pay for the public schools, are tax dollars are not going to the charter schools.

Heck I don't get why you don't want them to get the best education if their parents care that much?

 

[rightwinger]

Should they be able to withhold taxes to pay for their own security force?

That's a stupid analogy, people who have no kids can't with hold tax dollars for schools, we pay no matter what.

Good point

Why should someone who sends their kid to catholic school receive a voucher while someone without kids gets nothing

But then you bring up everything else, unmarried people have to pay more tax, people that own a home get tax breaks, then people who don't..

Exactly

So why should someone who chooses to send a kid to a private school be paid to do so?

But there just getting their tax dollars back..

Us no kids people still have to pay for the public schools, are tax dollars are not going to the charter schools.

Heck I don't get why you don't want them to get the best education if their parents care that much?

You don't get your tax dollars back.....You pay for public services

Some services you use, some you don't

 

[Wyatt earp]

That's a stupid analogy, people who have no kids can't with hold tax dollars for schools, we pay no matter what.

Good point

Why should someone who sends their kid to catholic school receive a voucher while someone without kids gets nothing

But then you bring up everything else, unmarried people have to pay more tax, people that own a home get tax breaks, then people who don't..

Exactly

So why should someone who chooses to send a kid to a private school be paid to do so?

But there just getting their tax dollars back..

Us no kids people still have to pay for the public schools, are tax dollars are not going to the charter schools.

Heck I don't get why you don't want them to get the best education if their parents care that much?

You don't get your tax dollars back.....You pay for public services

Some services you use, some you don't

They are getting a voucher (I assume) for what they would of paid in taxes

Again like 40% of city kids 20% of country kids drop out of school anyways so what's the problem.. Of letting the ones with parents who care a chance?

 

[rightwinger]

Good point

Why should someone who sends their kid to catholic school receive a voucher while someone without kids gets nothing

But then you bring up everything else, unmarried people have to pay more tax, people that own a home get tax breaks, then people who don't..

Exactly

So why should someone who chooses to send a kid to a private school be paid to do so?

But there just getting their tax dollars back..

Us no kids people still have to pay for the public schools, are tax dollars are not going to the charter schools.

Heck I don't get why you don't want them to get the best education if their parents care that much?

You don't get your tax dollars back.....You pay for public services

Some services you use, some you don't

They are getting a voucher (I assume) for what they would of paid in taxes

Again like 40% of city kids 20% of country kids drop out of school anyways so what's the problem.. Of letting the ones with parents who care a chance?

The problem with this Republican "fix" of our educational system is that it only applies to city kids. Most rural areas do not have charter schools, they do not have access to private schools
All they have is their public school system which is struggling for funds
Most rural schools are subsidized by the urban areas in their states. When you pull money away from city schools and give it to private schools you are also taking money away from rural districts

 

[mgh80]

School choice is a nice idea but won't solve anything. People want to know what's wrong with the education system?

Last week was parent conference night. Every parent was notified via phone message, billboards at the school and announcers, and a take home letter for students. I teach 150 students...how many kids had parents show up? 2. Literally. That's barely over 1%.

I'm not anti-parent, and I'd love for them to be involved with my class....but when you get 1% of parents showing up how could I?

 

[Unkotare]

School choice is a nice idea but won't solve anything. People want to know what's wrong with the education system?

Last week was parent conference night. Every parent was notified via phone message, billboards at the school and announcers, and a take home letter for students. I teach 150 students...how many kids had parents show up? 2. Literally. That's barely over 1%.

I'm not anti-parent, and I'd love for them to be involved with my class....but when you get 1% of parents showing up how could I?

You don't reach out to them?

 

[mgh80]

School choice is a nice idea but won't solve anything. People want to know what's wrong with the education system?

Last week was parent conference night. Every parent was notified via phone message, billboards at the school and announcers, and a take home letter for students. I teach 150 students...how many kids had parents show up? 2. Literally. That's barely over 1%.

I'm not anti-parent, and I'd love for them to be involved with my class....but when you get 1% of parents showing up how could I?

You don't reach out to them?

I can't reach out to 180 people on an individual basis are the start of the year, it's impossible. I do make the students get their syllabi signed where I reach out to them in the paper. I contact student parents for behavioral issues and/or grade issues when necessary and even call home for the good kids.

The level of apathy among parents at my school is disheartening. Most voice calls go unanswered, emails unread and/or not responded to and conference night is almost empty at the school.

2/150 is pathetic no matter how you slice the numbers or resolve cognitive dissonance.

 

[Thunderbird]

I am not arguing the public school system is the best it can be, but this argument for "school choice" is based on false pathos (oh, the poor black child is stuck in a low performing school, is bullshit

I'm sure you know all about what's best for minority children - far more than minority parents.

Quote: In fact, school choice is disproportionately popular among minority groups. AFC surveyed 1,100 likely voters in January 2016: 70 percent supported school choice, defined as “giv[ing] parents the right to use the tax dollars associated with their child’s education to send their child to the public or private school which better serves their needs." Among African Americans and Latinos, the number was 76 percent. A poll commissioned last year by the National Alliance for Public Charter Schools showed similar levels of support.

Read more at: Cory Booker Turns on His One-Time Ally, Betsy DeVos

those who want to shield their child from reality have every right to do so, and risk creating bigots and young adults not ready to adapt to a sheltered environment.

So students who go to school in mostly white areas like Maine or Finland are more likely to be bigots?!

 

[Thunderbird]

The level of apathy among parents at my school is disheartening. Most voice calls go unanswered, emails unread and/or not responded to and conference night is almost empty at the school.

You'll always have some apathetic parents, but if you give parents choice I think you'll get more involved parents. If people feel powerless, they are often unmotivated.

 

[Spare_change]

I am not arguing the public school system is the best it can be, but this argument for "school choice" is based on false pathos (oh, the poor black child is stuck in a low performing school, is bullshit

I'm sure you know all about what's best for minority children - far more than minority parents.

Quote: In fact, school choice is disproportionately popular among minority groups. AFC surveyed 1,100 likely voters in January 2016: 70 percent supported school choice, defined as “giv[ing] parents the right to use the tax dollars associated with their child’s education to send their child to the public or private school which better serves their needs." Among African Americans and Latinos, the number was 76 percent. A poll commissioned last year by the National Alliance for Public Charter Schools showed similar levels of support.

Read more at: Cory Booker Turns on His One-Time Ally, Betsy DeVos

those who want to shield their child from reality have every right to do so, and risk creating bigots and young adults not ready to adapt to a sheltered environment.

So students who go to school in mostly white areas like Maine or Finland are more likely to be bigots?!

As a football coach, I've had the opportunity to work in charter, private, high income, and low income schools. So, I've been exposed to parents from all levels. Here's what I think ....

1) Private schools come with the greatest level of expectation. Parent believe that, since they are paying tuition, their son is entitled to certain benefits - in my case, playing time. It doesn't matter how good Johnny is, or how often Johnny skips practice, or how often Johnny lifts weights, he is entitled to playing time simply because his parent pay for him to be there. Johnny, thus, doesn't believe he has to work for anything - that it all should be given to him. Keeping students eligible academically is a given - after all, Dad has bought that diploma.

2) High income public schools (in the nice parts of town) have the LEAST amount of parent involvement. Their parents are too busy with their own lives to worry about their kids. The kids, in turn, have no drive and no goals. Johnny doesn't care if he's the best, or not - because, he knows that any effort is more effort than most put forth. He also knows that, if he doesn't excel, it's okay, because mommy and daddy will take care of him. After all, they have been doing it all his life. This group doesn't believe in hard work or commitment to a cause. Keeping students eligible academically is an effort, but not hard. We lost 3-5% of students to grades.

3) Low income public schools suffer from a different malady. Parents generally understand that education is the only chance Johnny has, but they are ill-equipped to help him or guide him. By the time, Johnny is in the 7th grade, he has long passed the academic training of his parents. Therefore, they rely on the smartest people in the neighborhood - teachers - to raise their kids. Parents want to help - they just don't know how. So, Johnny falls into two general classes. He either has accepted his lot in life, given up, and just wants to get thru the day. Or, he has an absolutely burning desire to get out of the 'hood, and will do anything to make it happen. Parents will do everything they can - unfortunately, they can do very little. It is out of these schools that we get the most ardent, and active, parent support. Some will tell you that it's because Dad sees Johnny's football or basketball skills as Dad's ticket, but I don't think that's it - I think most parents see it as the only opportunity Johnny has to escape cycle of welfare. Far and away, parent involvement and child commitment is greatest in the low income school. We have won two state championships - both at very low income schools. We were blessed with kids who had drive and commitment - something missing at most other schools. These students are committed to football - but woefully unprepared academically. Keeping them eligible is almost impossible. We lose about 30-35% every year to grades.It would seem it is because that most of the students WANT to stay eligible, they're just ill-equipped to meet the academic rigors.

4) Charter schools are a hybrid - parents have some money, but they generally have a desire for their children to succeed, to be better than they were. As a football coach, we find these students to be less driven to athletic pursuits, which of course, makes our job harder. But, generally, their pursuit of academics is greater than the other groups. We had a lot fewer academic issues with our players, but also a corresponding lack of commitment to football.

Sometimes, I think the right answer is a mix of all four -- each has its advantage, and each has its faults.

 

[Spare_change]

The level of apathy among parents at my school is disheartening. Most voice calls go unanswered, emails unread and/or not responded to and conference night is almost empty at the school.

You'll always have some apathetic parents, but if you give parents choice I think you'll get more involved parents. If people feel powerless, they are often unmotivated.

I always thought the "holier-than-thou" attitude of educators drove off even the most committed parent.

 

[mgh80]

The level of apathy among parents at my school is disheartening. Most voice calls go unanswered, emails unread and/or not responded to and conference night is almost empty at the school.

You'll always have some apathetic parents, but if you give parents choice I think you'll get more involved parents. If people feel powerless, they are often unmotivated.

I give parents as much choice as I possibly can-which is NOT much...mind you I have a curriculum that I have to follow myself-I can't simply teach what I'd like to, let alone with any parent would like me to. Most parents will ask me if they can have input on what novel(s) we read in class...it's sad but I inform them that they can't-because I don't have a choice as to the novel(s) we study. I do encourage them to have their kids read, and will offer suggested readings based on their kid's interests, but my hands really are tied.

 

[Unkotare]

The level of apathy among parents at my school is disheartening. Most voice calls go unanswered, emails unread and/or not responded to and conference night is almost empty at the school.

You'll always have some apathetic parents, but if you give parents choice I think you'll get more involved parents. If people feel powerless, they are often unmotivated.

I always thought the "holier-than-thou" attitude of educators drove off even the most committed parent.

???

 

[mgh80]

The level of apathy among parents at my school is disheartening. Most voice calls go unanswered, emails unread and/or not responded to and conference night is almost empty at the school.

You'll always have some apathetic parents, but if you give parents choice I think you'll get more involved parents. If people feel powerless, they are often unmotivated.

I always thought the "holier-than-thou" attitude of educators drove off even the most committed parent.

How was my post "holier than thou"? I clearly stated that I encourage parental involvement and do my best to reach out.

There are many reasons why they can't/don't some are valid, others aren't.

 

[Spare_change]

The level of apathy among parents at my school is disheartening. Most voice calls go unanswered, emails unread and/or not responded to and conference night is almost empty at the school.

You'll always have some apathetic parents, but if you give parents choice I think you'll get more involved parents. If people feel powerless, they are often unmotivated.

I always thought the "holier-than-thou" attitude of educators drove off even the most committed parent.

???

The single thing that used to infuriate me when I was dealing with my children's teachers was the "know it all", "don't you worry about it", "you couldn't possibly understand", "I'd explain it to you but you're not smart enough to understand", "after all, I AM the trained educator here" attitude most teachers take with parents.

They were more interested in establishing their superiority than they were in coming to an agreement on how to move forward.

Since then, I've served on three school boards, and the attitude is even worse with school administrators, principals, and superintendents.

I greatly dislike being talked down to.

 

[Unkotare]

The level of apathy among parents at my school is disheartening. Most voice calls go unanswered, emails unread and/or not responded to and conference night is almost empty at the school.

You'll always have some apathetic parents, but if you give parents choice I think you'll get more involved parents. If people feel powerless, they are often unmotivated.

I always thought the "holier-than-thou" attitude of educators drove off even the most committed parent.

???

The single thing that used to infuriate me when I was dealing with my children's teachers was the "know it all", "don't you worry about it", "you couldn't possibly understand", "I'd explain it to you but you're not smart enough to understand", "after all, I AM the trained educator here" attitude most teachers take with parents.

They were more interested in establishing their superiority than they were in coming to an agreement on how to move forward.

Since then, I've served on three school boards, and the attitude is even worse with school administrators, principals, and superintendents.

I greatly dislike being talked down to.

Are you sure that wasn't just your impression? I've known very few teachers with such an attitude outside university education.

 

[Wry Catcher]

I am not arguing the public school system is the best it can be, but this argument for "school choice" is based on false pathos (oh, the poor black child is stuck in a low performing school, is bullshit)

I'm sure you know all about what's best for minority children - far more than minority parents.

Quote: In fact, school choice is disproportionately popular among minority groups. AFC surveyed 1,100 likely voters in January 2016: 70 percent supported school choice, defined as “giv[ing] parents the right to use the tax dollars associated with their child’s education to send their child to the public or private school which better serves their needs." Among African Americans and Latinos, the number was 76 percent. A poll commissioned last year by the National Alliance for Public Charter Schools showed similar levels of support.

Read more at: Cory Booker Turns on His One-Time Ally, Betsy DeVos

those who want to shield their child from reality have every right to do so, and risk creating bigots and young adults not ready to adapt to a sheltered environment.

So students who go to school in mostly white areas like Maine or Finland are more likely to be bigots?!

There is that RISK. Consider education and its impact on terrorists; the evidence that radical Imam's create hate and fear of the West in a homogeneous environment seem obvious.

 

[Thunderbird]

I am not arguing the public school system is the best it can be, but this argument for "school choice" is based on false pathos (oh, the poor black child is stuck in a low performing school, is bullshit)

I'm sure you know all about what's best for minority children - far more than minority parents.

Quote: In fact, school choice is disproportionately popular among minority groups. AFC surveyed 1,100 likely voters in January 2016: 70 percent supported school choice, defined as “giv[ing] parents the right to use the tax dollars associated with their child’s education to send their child to the public or private school which better serves their needs." Among African Americans and Latinos, the number was 76 percent. A poll commissioned last year by the National Alliance for Public Charter Schools showed similar levels of support.

Read more at: Cory Booker Turns on His One-Time Ally, Betsy DeVos

those who want to shield their child from reality have every right to do so, and risk creating bigots and young adults not ready to adapt to a sheltered environment.

So students who go to school in mostly white areas like Maine or Finland are more likely to be bigots?!

There is that RISK. Consider education and its impact on terrorists; the evidence that radical Imam's create hate and fear of the West in a homogeneous environment seem obvious.

No one loves a homogenous intellectual climate and intellectual uniformity as much as leftist elites! Haven't you heard of political correctness or the intolerant liberal thought police? You must be floating around in a bubble somewhere.

Leftist elites would love to create an educational monopoly wherein only left-wing dogma would be taught.

 

[dblack]

School choice is a euphemism for segregation.

The idea that every child will have a choice is a lie

Parents will naturally flock to the better school in the district which will quickly fill up. School choice will end up being a choice of wealthier white parents to pull their child out of a minority school

Most communities, especially rural ones, only have one school
How does school choice help them?

Lol. Do you think maybe successful schools might expand? Set up branches?

Do you think maybe rural folk might figure out how to build another school if an educational need is not being satisfied?

No they won't....most communities struggle to support the school they have

Why not use educational funds wisely? Let's stop wasting money on useless bureaucracies. Focus money on the schools that work.

Why don't you want to empower students and parents?

I agree

Why use our limited education funds on people who choose to send their kids to private school?

I guess it depends on whether your goal is to fund education, or to control it.

 

[Spare_change]

The level of apathy among parents at my school is disheartening. Most voice calls go unanswered, emails unread and/or not responded to and conference night is almost empty at the school.

You'll always have some apathetic parents, but if you give parents choice I think you'll get more involved parents. If people feel powerless, they are often unmotivated.

I always thought the "holier-than-thou" attitude of educators drove off even the most committed parent.

???

The single thing that used to infuriate me when I was dealing with my children's teachers was the "know it all", "don't you worry about it", "you couldn't possibly understand", "I'd explain it to you but you're not smart enough to understand", "after all, I AM the trained educator here" attitude most teachers take with parents.

They were more interested in establishing their superiority than they were in coming to an agreement on how to move forward.

Since then, I've served on three school boards, and the attitude is even worse with school administrators, principals, and superintendents.

I greatly dislike being talked down to.

Are you sure that wasn't just your impression? I've known very few teachers with such an attitude outside university education.

Throughout my involvement with the education system, I found this to be the PREVALENT attitude, not an exception or two. Yes, it was even worse at the university level, but that was more directed to the students.

I truly believe that one of the reasons you don't see more parent involvement is because the teaching staff is all that interested in INVOLVING them because they feel the parents can't understand the intricacies of teaching.