Rush Limbaugh on Donovan McNabb

[jimnyc]

Is it not obvious that you could make exactly the same commentary now about Rush? Speaking of "waste of life"... what a hater. And I don't remember Cobain "flaunting" his habit.

His entire inner circle, family & friends knew he was a major drug addict addicted to heroin. For the everyday fan it was quite obvious that he was wasted every time he hit the stage or a public venue, unless you want to ignore the obvious signs.

He made several attempts to kick it. Obviously, he was a psychological wreck, not fit for this world, and not much of a role model, but the world chose him because of his music, and to this day, I consider Nevermind one of the most significant contributions to pop music in the nineties (say what you will...).

Younger fans will also be attracted to musicians who lead their lives with reckless abandon. I think everyone knows that younger kids want to be just like their favorite rock stars, and I personally don't want my son idolizing someone who is a heroin addict.

I don't think "stars" have any more responsibility to "live clean" than any of the rest of us. Some of us succumb, and others don't. Just a fact of life. How many of the great people in the world had less attractive characteristics that made them in restospect seem less than perfect? How many of us are perfect?

I think anyone that is dealing with children and teenagers on a daily basis does have a responsibility. How many fans do you think between the ages of 12-21 went to see him while he was wasted? He crossed the line when he came into the public eye while under the influence.

Cobain received the ire of Rush and now of you, jimnyc, more because he was a representative of a counter culture, not for his drug addiction. Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about John Lennon?

I personally felt no pain over the loss of John Lennon, and will feel even less when Yoko meats her maker!

I don't necessarily think Rush should have resigned either, but his commentary was not appropriate. Making race an issue is not a football comentators job, which leads me to believe ESPN should never have hired him in the first place.

He didn't make it an "issue", he commented on it. It's extremely saddening to think a white man can no longer even mention the word "black" anymore without fear of losing his job. We can talk about the success stories of black NFL head coaches, but not players in the same manner? It's written about and spoken about almost daily the dealings black coaches have to put up with when interviewing for a head coach job. They are clearly receiving preferential treatment in the interview process, and that's now a league rule! (See Mariucci and Detroit)

I mean, what did they expect from this guy? Football comentary? "McNabb is overrated" would have more than sufficed. In any case, the worst one can say about McNabb is that he's above average. He's no miracle worker. In making a commentary like that, Rush says more about himself than about McNabb.

If he left it at that it wouldn't have explained why he gets so much media exposure throughout the nation. Does he get that exposure because he is "mediocre"?

Concerning his commentaries about Cobain, Rush reveals that he is a hypocrite (if it turns out that his prescription addiction is more than just a rumor...), and that should cost him the respect of all of you.

Time will tell... Kind of strange these stories get released when someone is suddenly in the limelight (just like the flood of Schwarzenneger complaints coming out this week).

 

[Bry]

Originally posted by janeeng
I don't see how saying the word Black makes you racist, I use Black now and then and I am far from being racist. I have friends that are black and we joke about the colors. She called me a cracker, does that mean she is racist? no!!! had I called her a ******, that would have been different, but I didn't. I also believe that Cobain whether an addict or not, his music, yes, fans loved, with so others, but it's promoting SEX, DRUGS AND KILLING! I don't recalll any music out of John Lennon promoting Death, maybe I am wrong, but just don't remember. Someone also brought up Elvis, where in his MUSIC has he promoted SEX AND DRUGS or even thrive on Killing??? he might have had problems on pills, but this all brought out later on. Just the same as Rush, bring out so-called pills, why not have brought the issue up years ago? same goes for Arnold!! now all of sudden woman are coming forward claiming how he groped them and made sexual comments - amazing, comes out now, but how come they didn't come forward before this?

thanks for your thoughtful reply, Janeeng. I don't think what Rush said necessarily means he is a racist (nor did I say that before...). I do think he is a racist, but I don't think that is the necessary conclusion to draw from his comments on ESPN. The comment was incendiary, controversial, and that is fine for a rant on his radio show, but not appropriate for a sports commentator. Like I said, though, I don't know what ESPN was thinking when they hired him. He is famous for doing exactly what he did on ESPN, and when he did it, everyone acted shocked and surprised. That's what I don't understand about the case. Should he resign? He should never have been hired.

As for Cobain et. al. I don't think that singing about drugs or death or anything else is necessarily a "promotion". Lennon, on the one hand, certainly wrote songs that seem to promote, as in advocate, drug usage, but not Cobain. Cobain made a commentary about society, and about the pains and frustrations of living in it. I don't think drugs and suicide were things that he advocated in his songs (and I am VERY familiar with his lyrics) so much as he expressed frustration and disgust, which were, as it turns out, feelings that a lot of people at that time could relate to. He was, to a certain extent, the voice of a generation. Does that mean he inspired people to take drugs and kill themselves? I would argue no. People take drugs and commit suicide all the time. I would argue that what he said in his songs was a reflection of feelings a lot of people were already having, and in Cobain and his music, they found a friend they related to. Sometimes, a friend is not the person that is always telling you to clean up your act and join the mad rush to wealth and success. I think Cobain was as surprised by his success as anyone here, and he certainly had a difficult time coming to terms with it. In his suicide letter, he stated quite plainly, that Freddy Mercury was a true hero, much more worthy of the adoration of his fans, but that he himself just couldn't cope with the stress that comes with being in the public eye. A role model? no. A tragic case of something that happens everyday, but that doesn't get the same attention as when it happens to "star"? absolutely.

Cobain was probably a manic depressive, border line schizophrenic. Unfortunately, with "stars", we do not give, we are not charitable, we only make more demands

 

[janeeng]

Well, your right about it Bry, but you have to imagine the way some of the kids think today with music! they live for this, and they take what's in the music to heart and follow what they feel is their hero! I only have come to the conclusion of the way music is towards kids, when the kid who lived in the same town as me chose to follow the words in music and killed himself! I don't recall who the singer was, but I know it happened. Kids seem to place their life in their music and look up to these idiots. Sorry Dan but Manson is another one. I just can't get myself to like anything about the guy! Call me old, but it's country, and old rock, today's music just isn't for me AT ALL!!! I don't like rap, can't understand a damn thing about it. I see kids today too with rap, not only do they like the music, they seem to have followed the path of dressing it too! what ever happened to guys in nice tight jeans, nice buns to show off! now you have jeans that look like they belong to their Daddy's!! not for me, I like the buns!!!! Good points though Bry!

 

[jimnyc]

It would appear that Kurt himself knew what I am speaking about.


"I'm kind of an example for people,and there are 9-year-old kids who are into our band, and if they think I take drugs and I think it's cool, then they are going to do it too."
http://home.pi.be/~ph486098/quotes.htm

"I don't want my daughter to grow up and someday be hassled by kids at school...I don't want people telling her that her parents were junkies"
http://www.expage.com/page/kurtquotes

"I choose to do drugs. I don't feel sorry for myself at all, but I have nothing good to say about them. They are a total waste of time!"
http://www.angelfire.com/80s/fromthemouths/quotes/00020.html

There are many more, but I think this shows that pretty much everyone knew he was a junkie. He admitted as much in many interviews. Who did he think was going to read these interviews? When not at concerts the kids will buy every magazine related to their "hero's".

 

[Bry]

Originally posted by jimnyc
His entire inner circle, family & friends knew he was a major drug addict addicted to heroin. For the everyday fan it was quite obvious that he was wasted every time he hit the stage or a public venue, unless you want to ignore the obvious signs.

No, I certainly knew he was a mess. I guess I thought by "flaunt" that you you meant promoted or advocated. I understand better now.

Younger fans will also be attracted to musicians who lead their lives with reckless abandon. I think everyone knows that younger kids want to be just like their favorite rock stars, and I personally don't want my son idolizing someone who is a heroin addict.

I think you're right here too, but that it is the responsibility of parents to participate in the lives of their children, to talk to them about the dangers. I think telling your children that they can't listen to something is not always a good option either, particularly with teenagers who are prone to do things just because their parents tell them not too, and perhaps even more prone to imitate a behavior pattern just because their parents have a strong reaction against it. Rebelion is a psychological necessity in the developmental stage of most teenagers. I think parents should make an attempt to keep abreast of the trends, and the interests of their child, and have conversations that might guide or educate to different points of view. But this is all very difficult, and obviously, just my opinion.

I think anyone that is dealing with children and teenagers on a daily basis does have a responsibility. How many fans do you think between the ages of 12-21 went to see him while he was wasted? He crossed the line when he came into the public eye while under the influence.

As I said above, I think that the responsibility lies with parents. We cannot expect the famous to raise our children for us. I was 17 myself when i started listening to Nirvana. I was old enough to put it into perspective. I simply don't think art, or an artist, should be evaluated by what effect we think it might have on our children. I do understand what you're saying, though, jimnyc, and I think the conversation is a productive one. These are issues which need to be in the forefront of our national dialogue.

I personally felt no pain over the loss of John Lennon, and will feel even less when Yoko meats her maker!

Yeah. That's about what I figured. I think Lenon was a visionary. Again, I'm not sure I'd want him raising my kids, but that's supposed to be my responsibility, right?

He didn't make it an "issue", he commented on it. It's extremely saddening to think a white man can no longer even mention the word "black" anymore without fear of losing his job. We can talk about the success stories of black NFL head coaches, but not players in the same manner? It's written about and spoken about almost daily the dealings black coaches have to put up with when interviewing for a head coach job. They are clearly receiving preferential treatment in the interview process, and that's now a league rule! (See Mariucci and Detroit)

Here, again, I sympathize with your commentary. I think political correctness has gone too far. I guess my take on it is, yes, it is okay to celebrate a black man's triumphs, perhaps more so than a white man's. Why? Because he probably had to fight harder to get where he is. No more, no less. And anyone who thinks that racism is not a problem black people face every day, I would say they are dead wrong. I also agree to a certain extent with affirmative action, though I think they should find a system more sensative than simple quotas: "you have to accept a certain number of minorities" just doesn't cut it for me. But if two candidates are as "equal" in every other way possible, I have no problem with saying take the black man. We have a lot of advantages just by being white. There is a huge difference between the quality of education received by blacks and whites in this country and I have no problem with giving them the benefit of the doubt when possible. I realize you aren't going to agree with a lot of this; just know I am posting it respectfully in the spirit of sharing opinions and ideas.

If he left it at that it wouldn't have explained why he gets so much media exposure throughout the nation. Does he get that exposure because he is "mediocre"?

I think he was getting exposure because he was making some amazing plays. Because he was hurting other teams with foot speed, agility, and passing accuracy. Because he was the "leader" of a team that was enjoying a lot of success. Peyton Manning was getting all sorts of attention when he started too. Is anyone calling him one of the greats now? Sometimes the attention is fleeting when they are starting out because they do very well for a while, then everyone realizes they aren't another Joe Montanta, and the attention starts to slip. I don't think he was overrated because he was black, though he may have gotten more attention because good black quartebacks, through history, have been a rarity. And I don't resent him that attention.

Time will tell... Kind of strange these stories get released when someone is suddenly in the limelight (just like the flood of Schwarzenneger complaints coming out this week).

I don't think the two situations are very similar. I think people put up with asslike behavior on a daily basis, but when the same person starts running for public office, the issue of character becomes more important. Do I care if Schwarzenegger grabbed a tit in '79? Hell no. But when a pattern can be established, I think it becomes an issue when considering candidates for public office. (And no, I don't change my mind depending on which party he's running for.) Another example: I thought the Anita Hill thing was rediculous. And in the end, it didn't keep Clarence out of the Supreme Court (as much as I don't like him.).

i think the quotes from Cobain are all good. Thanks for putting them up. No, I don't think he was ever disillusioned about the drugs. He knew it was killing him. I even think the idea that people looked to him as a role model, in the end, helped convince him to take his own life. I think he felt guilty as hell.

 

[Bry]

oops. LOL. gotta work on my use of the quotes.

 

[janeeng]

hahaha, yeah, I would say so Bry, you have me all confused - of course, I know, doens't take much!

 

[jimnyc]

Good responses, Bry!

I agree, and should have added initially, the parents have a huge responsibility in this as well. If the kid is taught and raised properly - he may still love these guys and have enough sense to avoid the drugs. This doesn't mean the musician is absolved of all responsibility, but the blame can be shared.

I think he was getting exposure because he was making some amazing plays. Because he was hurting other teams with foot speed, agility, and passing accuracy. Because he was the "leader" of a team that was enjoying a lot of success. Peyton Manning was getting all sorts of attention when he started too. Is anyone calling him one of the greats now?

Peyton Manning has the highest QB rating of any QB IN HISTORY after 4 games into a season, why isn't he making headlines like McNabb was before this fiasco? His team is 4-0 going into tonights game, mostly due to his play on sunday.

It's a better story to report the success of a black man as opposed to a white man. You can argue that they had to "work harder" to get where they are in life, but someone shouldn't be lashed out at because he spoke up and asked why or explained his reasoning.

And lastly, it should have been the NFL or ESPN speaking up if they had such a problem with his actions, not Al Sharpton and 2 democrats.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Dan
But, he "flaunted his drug addiction"? Nobody even knew about his drug addiction (I mean, not people that didn't know him) until a few months before his suicide, when he OD'ed. Obviously, you could assume he was, but then again, you can assume that about pretty much every rock star since John Lennon.

Nobody knew? He admitted as much in MANY interviews over the years. The guy was a junkie since he was 14 years old, did you really think the fans wouldn't notice this?

And I'm not defending the bands I like either. I love the music from Motley Crue & Ozzy, but if any of them die from drugs (or an indirect cause of drug use) I won't have an ounce of sympathy for them either.

 

[Bry]

er, I guess I just dated the extent of my football knowledge as well. I haven't kept up with football since I left the states. But I do remember being very excited about Peyton his first couple years, then it seemed like he was in a slump for a while. Glad to hear he's back on top.

I'm also a BIG fan of Michael Vick, because I saw him play a few times at Virginia Tech and my whole family are tech fans. (I broke my grandfather's heart when I elected not to go there... LOL) I've heard he's out for a good while. Too bad. But that Florida State game three years ago was a wild, wild, ride.

Yeah, freakin' Ozzy, what a mess. And this guy subjects himself to having all of America as daily guests inside his home! Good grief... I was a big fan of Black Sabbath. It probably contributed to my buying the Satanic bible and trying to "impress" people by telling them I was a Satanist. What a crazy time is our youth!!! (BTW, I got into Black Sabbath in the first place when I found thier first vinyl in my dad's old record collection. and for the record, I never engaged in human or animal sacrifice. )

 

[Bry]

As for Al Sharpton and the other 2 Dems, it's amazing to me what some people will do leading into an election year. Perhaps this gets us a little more back on topic...

I don't like the Democrats either, and I will probably not vote for one next year. It seems like alot of the Democrats are coming out of the wood work now to take advantage of the fact that things haven't been rolling very well for Bush. At this point it seems like every Democratic politician and his mother are saying they were against the war all along, but that just doesn't add up. Almost without exception, they were in favor of the war. (with the possible exception of Dean, who I think was critical of the war all along.) Now they're saying Bush lied, but they've certainly taken their time to getting to that point. Even after it was clear they weren't going to walk in and find big store houses of chemical weapons nicely catalogued and advertised by neon signs, most of the Dems took the practical approach: well, I'm just glad that bad man isn't in a position of power anymore... But as soon as the polls start to slip, they're on Bush like a pack of wolves. Of course, a Democratic president gets no better treatment when things go sour for him, but all in all, the American political game just makes me sick.

 

[jimnyc]

er, I guess I just dated the extent of my football knowledge as well. I haven't kept up with football since I left the states. But I do remember being very excited about Peyton his first couple years, then it seemed like he was in a slump for a while. Glad to hear he's back on top.

He's looked nearly perfect so far this season. He'll get tested playing in Tampa tonight though.

I'm also a BIG fan of Michael Vick, because I saw him play a few times at Virginia Tech and my whole family are tech fans. (I broke my grandfather's heart when I elected not to go there... LOL) I've heard he's out for a good while. Too bad. But that Florida State game three years ago was a wild, wild, ride.

Yeah, I love Michael Vick! I just went to the Tech-Rutgers game on saturday. (Look at the thread in the pictures section, even a pic of his brother there). My wife graduated from VT in 1989.

Vick is supposedly back to jogging and light passing now after breaking his fibula on Aug. 16th, and some say he may be back around week 10.

Yeah, freakin' Ozzy, what a mess. And this guy subjects himself to having all of America as daily guests inside his home! Good grief... I was a big fan of Black Sabbath. It probably contributed to my buying the Satanic bible and trying to "impress" people by telling them I was a Satanist. What a crazy time is our youth!!! (BTW, I got into Black Sabbath in the first place when I found thier first vinyl in my dad's old record collection. and for the record, I never engaged in human or animal sacrifice. )

Ozzy is a child in an adults body, it's actually very sad. The man can sing - but he can't even talk properly anymore (as if he ever could). This man is more dependent on his wife than any other husband in the world!

No wonder you like the "other side" in politics, you're a devil worshiper! LOL (j/k)

 

[Bry]

No wonder you like the "other side" in politics, you're a devil worshiper! LOL (j/k)

YEAH!!! I also played Dungeons and Dragons and sometimes (don't tell anyone) I ran around the classroom with scissors!!!

(I'm a BAD boy! Somehow I still managed to make my parents proud.)

 

[Jackass]

I would love to reply to Bry's statement about the black guy having it harder than the white man and that if to people are equal take the balck person cause he had such a hard life...but I dont have the time to tell him how fooish this really is.

 

[Bry]

Originally posted by Jackass
I would love to reply to Bry's statement about the black guy having it harder than the white man and that if to people are equal take the balck person cause he had such a hard life...but I dont have the time to tell him how fooish this really is.

well, I never!

I've never had any trouble getting jobs. I guess it's just 'cause I was always the superior candidate.

 

[5stringJeff]

I just think it's sad that we can't even have a serious discussion about race. Rush brings up the topic of how we deal with different races in America, and everyone goes ballistic about it.
And for the record, I have been anti-McNabb since 1996, when he led Syracuse over Army for our only regular season loss that year. If not for McNabb, we might have gotten into a second-tier BCS-type bowl that year. As it was, Army got into the Independence Bowl - and lost because of our moronic, stupid, idiot coach.
However, I will say that there are good QBs, bad QBs, overrated QBs, and underrated QBs. But the only thing that matters is this: can they lead the team to victory? No other statistic should matter.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
However, I will say that there are good QBs, bad QBs, overrated QBs, and underrated QBs. But the only thing that matters is this: can they lead the team to victory? No other statistic should matter.

I agree, Jeff. I was touting Tommy Maddox and his great stats a few games ago. He still leads the entire AFC in passing yardage, but he can't seem to win them the games. I'd rather he throw for 100 yards a game and they get the W!

 

[Bry]

I'll talk about race 'till I'm blue in the face, jeff. Anything on you mind? Rush too, he just picked the wrong place to do it. I think this was a question of appropriacy, and I think he got it wrong.

Like I said, they shouldn't have hired him in the first place. Rush made exactly the kind of statement that made him famous, and everyone was surprised. Don't hire Rush to do football comentary, and don't ask me to be the Secretary of Defence. I'd just fuck it up!!!

 

[Jackass]

Originally posted by Bry
well, I never!

I've never had any trouble getting jobs. I guess it's just 'cause I was always the superior candidate.

Or you didnt go up against anyone who was black.

 

[Dan]

Well, I thought this one was done, but I guess not. I'm not going to bother getting into the football aspect of it, cause we all know how much I know about football.

First off, Janeen, I don't think any of Cobain's lyrics promoted killing or anything like that. Sure, you could probably find something that seemed like that if you really wanted to, but just about every song can be about whatever you want it to. Many people have read into Lennon's lyrics and found lots of supposed mentions of drugs ("Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds"... L.S.D.) which I don't think were intentional. I do agree with you about rap, though, 99% of it is crap.

Also, you mentioned someone who killed himself after listening to some song. I know this is another issue entirely, but I don't think music or movies or any form of art should be to blame for individuals' actions. I think if someone watches a violent movie and shoots up their school or listens to a song and kills themselves, that idea was already in their head and they just needed something that they felt would enable them.

Jim, you say that it was quite obvious to the fans that he was addicted to heroin, which is probably true (I'll take back what I said about nobody knowing, now that I think about it). Now, certainly, if it's affecting his performance, it's bad, but honestly, isn't it sort of a given that if you're watching a rock group onstage they probably are on, or were recently on, some sort of drug or alcohol? Not that this forgives them for it, but sadly, it's just sort of the norm, now.

The quotes you posted definitely showed that he didn't hide his drug addiction, so you're right there. However, I don't think they really "flaunt" it either.

In the end, there has never really been any celebrity that many people looked up to who didn't have some sort of problems.

Finally, just for the record, I came across the exact quote on what Rush had to say about Cobain the day after he died:

"...Kurt Cobain was, ladies and gentlemen, a worthless shred of human debris, who had been trying to kill himself for 12 years, and finally did it right, by using a shotgun, so he couldn't miss..."

Very elegantly put, I must say.