Rulles...Rules...Rules...

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Bullypulpit, May 19, 2005.

  1. Bullypulpit
    Offline

    Bullypulpit Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2004
    Messages:
    5,849
    Thanks Received:
    378
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Ratings:
    +379
    <center><h1><font color=330066>Don't like the rules...? Just Change 'em</font></h1></center>

    With the battle over the filibuster heating up in the Senate, understanding a few of the Senate rules that Senator Frist's, and the Republican leadership, will be breaking in the "nuclear option" in its implementation.

    <blockquote><a href=http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oId=18761>Senate Rules and Precedents That Would be Broken Through Exercise of the Nuclear Option</a>

    Violation # 1. Rule V: The Senate must follow its Rules to amend its Rules
    Paragraph 2 of Rule V states expressly that “Rules of the Senate shall continue from one Congress to the next Congress unless they are changed as provided in these Rules.” (emphasis added). The proposed nuclear option is a deliberate end-run around the Senate’s regular process (discussed below) for amending its own Rules because Senator Frist does not have the strong bipartisan support he needs in the current Senate to follow the regular order.

    Violation # 2. Rule V: Suspending the Rules without amending them.
    The Senate Rules provide expressly for the sole mechanism to suspend the Rules without amending them. Under Rule V, paragraph 1, the Senate may only suspend its Rules either by unanimous consent or by adopting a motion to suspend the Rules. Adoption of such a motion requires a 2/3 vote of Senators present.3 The nuclear option, by relying on a simple majority vote to change the Rules without changing the text (arguably a kind of suspension), clearly violates the 2/3 vote requirement.

    Violation # 3. Rule XXII: Violating the process for changing the Senate’s Rules.
    Paragraph 2 of Rule XXII establishes the requirements for ending debate on a proposed change to the Senate’s Rules. Under Rule XXII, a cloture petition signed by sixteen Senators must first be submitted to the Senate. The vote to invoke cloture (end debate) on amendment to the Rules cannot be held until 2 days after the cloture petition is filed, and the rule provides that 2/3 of Senators present and voting must consent to end debate.

    Violation #4. Failing to submit a constitutional Point of order to the Senate.
    Proponents of the nuclear option purport to justify their unprecedented approach by invoking the U.S. Constitution – to the point of trying to rename the nuclear option the “constitutional option.”4 Some have even argued that the filibuster of judicial nominations is unconstitutional, and that the Senate can therefore ignore its process for amending the Rules to eliminate it.5 Under long-established precedents of the Senate, when a point of order with an asserted constitutional basis is raised, the Chair does not rule on the point of order but instead submits it directly to the full Senate.6 However, such a point of order is debatable and it would take 60 votes to end debate on the constitutional point of order and bring it to a vote. Because it is not clear that Senator Frist has 51 votes for the nuclear option – much less 60 – it is likely that Vice President Cheney will rule directly on Frist’s “constitutional” point of order, violating Senate precedent.

    Violation # 5. Rule XXII: Ending debate on a nomination.
    The text of Paragraph 2 of Rule XXII expressly requires 60 Senators (3/5s of Senators duly chosen and sworn) to vote to end debate on “any measure, motion, other matter pending before the Senate,” including a judicial nomination. If the nuclear option is successful, and for the first time in our history Senators’ right to debate is ended by simple majority vote, this will constitute an express violation of Rule XXII’s 60 vote requirement. In essence, Rule XXII would be changed, but not in a manner provided by the Rules of the Senate.

    Violation # 6. Overriding the Senate’s Parliamentarian
    The Senate Parliamentarian is the officer charged with keeping the precedents of the Senate and advising the presiding officer of the Rules and precedents of the Senate if a point of order is raised from the floor. The current Parliamentarian, Alan Frumin, has worked for that office as either Parliamentarian or assistant Parliamentarian since 1977 under both Democratic and Republican majorities. It has been widely reported that the Senate Parliamentarian will advise the chair that any point of order to force a simple majority vote to end debate on a nominee would violate the Rules and precedents of the Senate. Therefore, for the nuclear option to succeed, the presiding officer, most likely Vice President Cheney in his role as President of the Senate, would have to ignore the advice of the Parliamentarian in ruling on a point of order. According to the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service, such an action would “constitute an extraordinary proceeding involving peremptory departure from the established system of Senate procedure.”7

    Vice President Cheney will need to ignore the Parliamentarian to invoke the nuclear option because Republicans must engineer a scenario where, as stated above, nuclear option opponents appeal a ruling of the chair endorsing the nuclear option. Frist must ensure that opponents appeal because the appeal itself is debatable, while a motion to table (kill) the appeal is not debatable. If Republican leaders try to overturn an adverse ruling by the chair through their own appeal (which would occur if the chair follows the parliamentarian), opponents could simple filibuster the appeal and a motion to table the appeal would set the opposite precedent than Frist wishes to achieve.</blockquote>

    It <i><b>should</b></i> be apparent to all by now, that the Republican leadership in Congress and the White House consider themselves to be above and beyond any rule or law. Those that they find inconvenient or obstructive to their agenda, they try to change. In the House, the Republican leadership tried to change the ethics rules to benefit Tom DeLay, given the possibility of his indictment in Texas. The Republican leadership in the Senate is attempting to change rules which allow a principled minority to stand up to the tyranny of the majority. The Administration has changed rules on air and water quality, workplace safety, Medicare, bankruptcy, etc. because they were inconvenient to campaign contributors, thus to the money flowing into Republican pockets.

    The Republican leadership in this nation preach about the virtues of ehtics and values. The reality, however, is that they lack any ethics and value only that which tightens their grip on power. They are the greatest threat the Republic now faces...not from terrorists...not from "activist judges"...not from permitting the marriage of same-gender couples. They, not some outside enemy, will be the death of the Republic.

    <blockquote>We have met the enemy...And he is us! - Pogo</blockquote>
     
  2. 5stringJeff
    Offline

    5stringJeff Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2003
    Messages:
    9,990
    Thanks Received:
    536
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Puyallup, WA
    Ratings:
    +540
    Yes, the concept of "majority rules" will be the death of America... :rolleyes:
     
  3. Mr. P
    Offline

    Mr. P Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2004
    Messages:
    11,329
    Thanks Received:
    618
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    South of the Mason Dixon
    Ratings:
    +618
    You know, it PAINS me to say, I pretty much agree with that.
     
  4. CSM
    Offline

    CSM Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    Messages:
    6,907
    Thanks Received:
    708
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Northeast US
    Ratings:
    +708
    Not too much argument from me about the ethics of either party, but there is no doubt in my mind that both parties try to skew the rules in favor of enabling their agenda. Portraying the Republican party as unique in doing this is just downright deceitful.
     
  5. sitarro
    Offline

    sitarro Gold Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2003
    Messages:
    5,186
    Thanks Received:
    999
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Location:
    USA
    Ratings:
    +1,001
    What is really scary is that even with all of these faults , the Republicans look like virgin boyscouts compared to the likes of such wonderful Democrat celebrities as the KKK Grand Wizard , The drunk that drowned his date years ago , and the rapists /liar that inhabited the Oval Office between the years 1992 and 2000 .But then again , you weren't talking about them , are you ever critical of Dems? :wtf:
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  6. Mr. P
    Offline

    Mr. P Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2004
    Messages:
    11,329
    Thanks Received:
    618
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    South of the Mason Dixon
    Ratings:
    +618
    True...What pains me is the Republican party seems to have become
    the pandering for votes party. Not what I support at all..Excluding the WOT, what have they really done for the Country in the last 5 1/2 years vs what they have done for big business?
     
  7. Mr. P
    Offline

    Mr. P Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2004
    Messages:
    11,329
    Thanks Received:
    618
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    South of the Mason Dixon
    Ratings:
    +618
    Of course I am..I'm talking about how this party that I supported for years is, IMO, killing itself.
     
  8. 5stringJeff
    Offline

    5stringJeff Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2003
    Messages:
    9,990
    Thanks Received:
    536
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Puyallup, WA
    Ratings:
    +540
    Lower taxes?

    Booming economy?

    More jobs?

    Just to name a few. The GOP is certainly not perfect but they are doing a decent job, IMO.
     
  9. Mr. P
    Offline

    Mr. P Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2004
    Messages:
    11,329
    Thanks Received:
    618
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    South of the Mason Dixon
    Ratings:
    +618
    Lower taxes..we'll see how long that lasts..My guess is it can't with all the spending.

    Booming economy...where? Sure it's moving along, but I'd hardly call it Booming.

    More jobs...Yep for India, Mexico and China.
     
  10. sitarro
    Offline

    sitarro Gold Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2003
    Messages:
    5,186
    Thanks Received:
    999
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Location:
    USA
    Ratings:
    +1,001
    Although I quoted your post , I wasn't refering to you P, I was speaking to Bully.
    I do have to say that in a Capitalistic society , helping business prosper is helping the country prosper . You will need to go to the Democrats for vote buying handouts , that is what they specialize in . Jeff's list states the major contributions the Republicans have made in the last 5 years , what have the Democrats done but obstruct everthing the Republican administration proposes ?
    The problem with the system we have is that the Dems will get in control , run down our defense by cutting spending , put regulations on business that makes it less competitive in the world market , and innact numerous social programs that kill incentive to progress in life by stealing money from the producers and giving to the dependers (in other words screwing up everything that makes this country work ). . . . then Republicans get into power and are forced to waste time fixing everything the Dems messed up . On top of that , the idiots in the Dem party , the ones with the most power and biggest mouths , fight the fixes every step of the way , all the while telling you how much they care for you the individual and are fighting the evil Republicans , the pro business jerks . I am amazed that you have fallen for their bullshit P , don't tell me you are a Buchannan follower . I think that idiot should have realized it long ago that he only appeals to the Aryans in this country , he is so far right that if he appears with anyone they immediately become unelectible .
     

Share This Page