Rape: An Honest Discussion

[Quantum Windbag]

There is a lot of hoopla out there about the issues surrounding rape, I want to bring them out here in an attempt to deal with them honestly. I fully intend my posts to be offensive to the crybabies who believe that telling the truth about rape is bad, so if you have a problem with truth feel free to skip this entire discussion.

I actually came across something that I mostly agree with, so I will use it as the foundation of by post.

If you don't believe most people regard rape as abhorrent and vile, don't bother reading further. Subjectivity and objectivity are awkward partners.

This is the crux of the problem with some people. Apparently they actually believe that a significant amount of people actually think rape is excusable. If you believe that, you don't belong discussing the issues, you belong in Arkham Asylum. There is no rational basis for saying stupid shit like that, so please keep out of the discussion if the best you can offer is insanity.

If you disagree with others on strategies for fighting rape, then we can have a discussion. We probably should, because people seem to be talking past each other. I've largely stayed out of this, but as of late there are a lot of people with unsupportable concepts that don't rise to the level of hypothesis, much less theory, telling women what the world should do for them to end rape.

There are several strategies one should use for dealing with any crime or encroachment. We'll break this down into PREVENTION, AVOIDANCE and REACTION.

The Sacred Cow Slaughterhouse

Did you get that? The effective strategy for dealing with rape is three steps, prevention, avoidance, and reaction.

This is where rational discussion has been breaking down lately. Telling a woman that she shouldn't be dressed like she is begging for sex and then go walking through a dark alley does not mean that you are supporting rape, it is simply applying common sense rules of survival.

I am a fairly large man, always armed, and here are still places I will not go. I remember walking down a well lighted street once and being approached by a smaller person who was chatting me up and asking me about places to go. We approached an area that I knew would be dark, and I stopped, looked at him, and told him that we were not going to walk down that hill together. Believe it or not, he did not take offense. We both understood the situation, and he respected my decision not to be stupid.

If I had gone down that hill, and been attacked, it would not have been my fault, because the attacker is always responsible for his crimes, but that does not mean that I get to be stupid just because it won't be my fault.

The crux of the matter here is that, despite the empty platitudes of idiots, you cannot teach a rapist not to rape anymore than you can teach an arsonist not to light fires. They don't rape women because they don't know better, they do it because they are sociopaths. This is how they get their thrills, and pretending that we can change them to magically make women safe by changing the culture is only going to lead to more rape victims.

Yes, we can teach normal boys, and men, what is, and is not, appropriate. That won't make an iota of difference to the rapists, but it is still a good idea, and one I fully support. But that does not mean we shouldn't teach women, and girls, how to avoid rape from the people who we cannot reach that way.

I would love to live in a world where women can sleep naked in the park and wake up unmolested, but that world only exists in the imagination. We live in a world where there are people that do not care about others, a world where there are people that enjoy hurting people. There are real live psychopaths out there, pretending that they don't exist simply because you want to pretend that the bad guys are the ones that tell you how to be safe is stupid.

Stop being stupid.

 

[tenthertoo]

When I was growing up forceable rape was a CAPITAL CRIME punishable by execution or life without parole. Seemed OK with me. Still feel that way.

 

[jwoodie]

Why don't we start by explicitly defining "rape" and stop using euphemisms like "sexual assault?" Is rape something that only a man can do to a woman and have it considered akin to murder? How is it different from other instances of assault? Do we still consider women to be emotionally disturbed children rather than rational adults? What about contributory actions by the "victim?" Is it merely enough to say "no" at the last moment? Please spare the histrionics and directly address these issues.

 

[Avatar4321]

Interesting discussion. I hope we can have an honest discussion without the rhetoric.

It should be noted that there are more sex crimes than just rape. In Pennsylvania, for example, we have involuntary deviate sexual intercourse, sexual assault, and aggravated sexual assault to name a few.

I'm not of the opinion that some people can't be taught to be better.

I am particularly interested in learning to teach my daughter how to prevent it when she is older. Let's see if this conversation will be useful.

 

[Katzndogz]

Rape should start meaning "rape" again. Not "I was disappointed in his performance. He was a boor. I felt insulted. My feelings were hurt. I was tired and didn't bother stopping him." Or any of the other ridiculous incidents that support a claim of rape today.

A rape claim should never arise in hindsight. There should never be a viable claim for rape after she thinks about it for a while.

 

[Oscar Wao]

Exactly, Katz. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that a lot of the "rape" claims made on college campuses are just cases of buyer's remorse on the woman's part.

 

[TheJedi]

I a a firm believer in mandatory castrating for repeat sex offenders. If that doesn't make people stop and think, I do now know what will.

A nice 3 strikes and, off come your balls (or clitoris as the case could be), should be enough to dissuade all but the most psychopathic of the bunch.

Now the hard part, proving it. Naysayers use the same tired excuses "It was consensual" or "She is just trying to get even".

The legal problem is proving or disproving consent and these days the law seems to favor consent much like divorces laws disproportionately favor women. In most cases, there are no witnesses which means much of the testimony can be labeled as hearsay.

DNA can prove sexual contact but not consent. Now if the woman was also injured in other ways, like beaten and has obvious other evidence, then it is far easier to prove a that there was no consent but nowadays, especially on college campuses, would-be rapists, drug their victims or coerce them into drinking a fruity punch that does not taste like a strong drink but really has a lot of alcohol in it. Then they take them to a place where there are no witnesses and take turns defiling her. In cases like this, the defense is simple, "She was asking for it. She was really drunk and grabbing our crotches. We thought she was cool with it. We had no way to know."

This is why, I think, rape is very murky. Add to that the fact that there are women who have made accusations of rape simply to defame a former lover and you can see why many real rape victims get treated with such unwarranted hostility.

Through all of this, I cannot see any good way, from a legal standpoint to make this process any less complicated. The burden of proof can be a tough one to bear so all that is left is educating young women on how to be more vigilant when attending parties or nightclubs such as never taking a drink from a stranger, only drink out of bottles where you can replace the cap, never leave your drink unattended and avoid being alone with drunken men and this breaks my heart because it should not be their burden to bear but how else can we protect them? The system fails at this miserably.

 

[Oscar Wao]

Jedi: It sucks for the woman, yes, but it's a small price to pay for living in a country with a fair, just, and liberal justice system

 

[anotherlife]

Rape might have been as a concept introduced by industrialization. Before the industrial revolution, there was no shivalry except in the circles of the feudal elite.

For most of history, women were kidnapped to make wives out of them. This is where the wedding day fun of running off with the bride is rooted in.

Small children get raped too. This causes them to disassociate with their bodies. Rape of people at or after the age of puberty still results in disassociation, but aggravated by acquired modern concepts too.

Rapists are created by being raped. There is no cure for rapists and rape victims. Historically they were both executed always. Why did we stop doing that?

 

[blackhawk]

Sadly we have turned in to a excuse culture we rationalize, justify, and excuse just about any crime outside of the most vile we try and make those who commit the crime as much if not more of a victim than the actual victim of the crime.

 

[TheJedi]

Jedi: It sucks for the woman, yes, but it's a small price to pay for living in a country with a fair, just, and liberal justice system

It is one of those things where no matter how you look at the picture, there is little to be done to change it.

 

[mamooth]

The crux of the matter here is that, despite the empty platitudes of idiots, you cannot teach a rapist not to rape anymore than you can teach an arsonist not to light fires. They don't rape women because they don't know better, they do it because they are sociopaths. This is how they get their thrills, and pretending that we can change them to magically make women safe by changing the culture is only going to lead to more rape victims.

I think that's an unsupportable and naive claim. It makes the unwarranted assumption that all men can be divided into categories of saintly non-rapists and the evil rapists.

Real world, men rape for lots of reasons. Your claim sounds very similiar to the PC feminist mantra of "all rape is about power". Some men just want to get their rocks off. They don't care how. They don't get any special thrill from raping compared to consensual sex. A lot of men certainly can be taught not to rape.

 

[westwall]

The crux of the matter here is that, despite the empty platitudes of idiots, you cannot teach a rapist not to rape anymore than you can teach an arsonist not to light fires. They don't rape women because they don't know better, they do it because they are sociopaths. This is how they get their thrills, and pretending that we can change them to magically make women safe by changing the culture is only going to lead to more rape victims.

I think that's an unsupportable and naive claim. It makes the unwarranted assumption that all men can be divided into categories of saintly non-rapists and the evil rapists.

Real world, men rape for lots of reasons. Your claim sounds very similiar to the PC feminist mantra of "all rape is about power". Some men just want to get their rocks off. They don't care how. They don't get any special thrill from raping compared to consensual sex. A lot of men certainly can be taught not to rape.

Would you ever trust a convicted rapist to be alone in a house with your loved ones? Get real.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The crux of the matter here is that, despite the empty platitudes of idiots, you cannot teach a rapist not to rape anymore than you can teach an arsonist not to light fires. They don't rape women because they don't know better, they do it because they are sociopaths. This is how they get their thrills, and pretending that we can change them to magically make women safe by changing the culture is only going to lead to more rape victims.

I think that's an unsupportable and naive claim. It makes the unwarranted assumption that all men can be divided into categories of saintly non-rapists and the evil rapists.

Where on Earth do you get that from? Have you ever tried to have a debate without totally misrepresenting the opposite side of the discussion?

Real world, men rape for lots of reasons. Your claim sounds very similiar to the PC feminist mantra of "all rape is about power". Some men just want to get their rocks off. They don't care how. They don't get any special thrill from raping compared to consensual sex. A lot of men certainly can be taught not to rape.

Real world, rape is not going to go away just because it is abhorrent.

By the way, you are 100% wrong, rape is about power. If all those men really wanted was to "get their rocks off" they could masturbate. You are confusing people who don't actually think about what they are doing with people who actually rape, just like those PC feminists you despise. That is the real danger of labelling people based on your personal bigotry, you end up just like them.

There are some men who, without actually thinking everything through, take advantage of drunk women, you are correct about that. They don't do it because they just want to get their rocks off, they do it because they haven't thought about what they are doing in advance. The thing is that, once they understand the situation, they end up regretting it. You don't have to teach those men not to rape, they already know that rape is wrong, they just don't see their actions as rape until it is too late.

The same rules that apply to women would apply to men in situations like that, prevention, avoidance, and reaction. If men, and women, think about how to avoid situations that lead to sexual assault there will be less, but the idea that men have to be taught not to rape in our culture is so stupid that it is barely worth the effort of debunking.

 

[Politico]

Rape: An Honest Discussion

It's wrong. Discussion over.

 

[mamooth]

Where on Earth do you get that from? Have you ever tried to have a debate without totally misrepresenting the opposite side of the discussion?

You just loudly announced all rapists were irredeemable sociopaths. If you don't mean what you say, don't say it.

There are some men who, without actually thinking everything through, take advantage of drunk women, you are correct about that. They don't do it because they just want to get their rocks off, they do it because they haven't thought about what they are doing in advance.

So, are those men sociopaths as well?

The thing is that, once they understand the situation, they end up regretting it.

How do you square that with your previous claim that a rapist will always rape?

Maybe it would have been better if they "understood" beforehand, so that the rape never occurred. I wonder how that could be accomplished. Teaching, perhaps? No, too much common sense there. Best to just let them rape, so they can learn the lesson themselves without any of that liberal teaching nonsense getting in the way.

but the idea that men have to be taught not to rape in our culture is so stupid that it is barely worth the effort of debunking.

You seem to have just debunked yourself quite effectively.

 

[Oscar Wao]

Jedi: It sucks for the woman, yes, but it's a small price to pay for living in a country with a fair, just, and liberal justice system

It is one of those things where no matter how you look at the picture, there is little to be done to change it.

It just sucks that it's so hard to tell whether or not the accuser is lying, like we can with other crimes.

There are legitimate victims who are doubted and disbelieved, and it sucks thanks to the feminist definition of rape being so watered down that anything can be construed as rape.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Where on Earth do you get that from? Have you ever tried to have a debate without totally misrepresenting the opposite side of the discussion?

You just loudly announced all rapists were irredeemable sociopaths. If you don't mean what you say, don't say it.

Except I said no such thing. What I said is that rape will always exist because there are some people that do not give a fuck what people think. the reason I know this is that, clinically, I am a sociopath. The fact that I am one gives me an insight into the mind that most people lack, and is also why I am so sure that free will exists.

By the way, if I actually believe that all rapists are sociopaths, how do you explain the fact that I understand that not all rapists are sociopaths?

There are some men who, without actually thinking everything through, take advantage of drunk women, you are correct about that. They don't do it because they just want to get their rocks off, they do it because they haven't thought about what they are doing in advance.

So, are those men sociopaths as well?

Only in your warped mind.

The thing is that, once they understand the situation, they end up regretting it.

How do you square that with your previous claim that a rapist will always rape?

How do you square that with the fact that I never said that?

Maybe it would have been better if they "understood" beforehand, so that the rape never occurred. I wonder how that could be accomplished. Teaching, perhaps? No, too much common sense there. Best to just let them rape, so they can learn the lesson themselves without any of that liberal teaching nonsense getting in the way.

Funny, I actually just said that to you, but feel free to pretend that you thought it up yourself.

but the idea that men have to be taught not to rape in our culture is so stupid that it is barely worth the effort of debunking.

You seem to have just debunked yourself quite effectively.

Yeah, sure I did.

Like I asked earlier, can you ever debate without totally misrepresenting the position of the other side?

 

[Zmrzlina]

Jedi: It sucks for the woman, yes, but it's a small price to pay for living in a country with a fair, just, and liberal justice system

It is one of those things where no matter how you look at the picture, there is little to be done to change it.

It just sucks that it's so hard to tell whether or not the accuser is lying, like we can with other crimes.

There are legitimate victims who are doubted and disbelieved, and it sucks thanks to the feminist definition of rape being so watered down that anything can be construed as rape.

There is nothing watered down about consent being the deciding factor between sex and rape.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

There is a lot of hoopla out there about the issues surrounding rape, I want to bring them out here in an attempt to deal with them honestly. I fully intend my posts to be offensive to the crybabies who believe that telling the truth about rape is bad, so if you have a problem with truth feel free to skip this entire discussion.

I actually came across something that I mostly agree with, so I will use it as the foundation of by post.

If you don't believe most people regard rape as abhorrent and vile, don't bother reading further. Subjectivity and objectivity are awkward partners.

This is the crux of the problem with some people. Apparently they actually believe that a significant amount of people actually think rape is excusable. If you believe that, you don't belong discussing the issues, you belong in Arkham Asylum. There is no rational basis for saying stupid shit like that, so please keep out of the discussion if the best you can offer is insanity.

If you disagree with others on strategies for fighting rape, then we can have a discussion. We probably should, because people seem to be talking past each other. I've largely stayed out of this, but as of late there are a lot of people with unsupportable concepts that don't rise to the level of hypothesis, much less theory, telling women what the world should do for them to end rape.

There are several strategies one should use for dealing with any crime or encroachment. We'll break this down into PREVENTION, AVOIDANCE and REACTION.

The Sacred Cow Slaughterhouse

Did you get that? The effective strategy for dealing with rape is three steps, prevention, avoidance, and reaction.

This is where rational discussion has been breaking down lately. Telling a woman that she shouldn't be dressed like she is begging for sex and then go walking through a dark alley does not mean that you are supporting rape, it is simply applying common sense rules of survival.

I am a fairly large man, always armed, and here are still places I will not go. I remember walking down a well lighted street once and being approached by a smaller person who was chatting me up and asking me about places to go. We approached an area that I knew would be dark, and I stopped, looked at him, and told him that we were not going to walk down that hill together. Believe it or not, he did not take offense. We both understood the situation, and he respected my decision not to be stupid.

If I had gone down that hill, and been attacked, it would not have been my fault, because the attacker is always responsible for his crimes, but that does not mean that I get to be stupid just because it won't be my fault.

The crux of the matter here is that, despite the empty platitudes of idiots, you cannot teach a rapist not to rape anymore than you can teach an arsonist not to light fires. They don't rape women because they don't know better, they do it because they are sociopaths. This is how they get their thrills, and pretending that we can change them to magically make women safe by changing the culture is only going to lead to more rape victims.

Yes, we can teach normal boys, and men, what is, and is not, appropriate. That won't make an iota of difference to the rapists, but it is still a good idea, and one I fully support. But that does not mean we shouldn't teach women, and girls, how to avoid rape from the people who we cannot reach that way.

I would love to live in a world where women can sleep naked in the park and wake up unmolested, but that world only exists in the imagination. We live in a world where there are people that do not care about others, a world where there are people that enjoy hurting people. There are real live psychopaths out there, pretending that they don't exist simply because you want to pretend that the bad guys are the ones that tell you how to be safe is stupid.

Stop being stupid.

Unfortunately, rape, or what we humans would call rape, is a naturally occuring behaviour in the animal kingdom. Been out n about lately (and why I haven't been on here) enjoying the nice weather and watching the critters. Among them birds. Morning Doves and whatever these little brown ones are exhibit what I'd call rape and full-out gang bangs of females. The doves in particular will gang up 6 or 7 on 1 female and engage is what I assume is mating, though calling it anything other than rape is perhaps overly kind. As an animal which is part of this nature system, humans are likely no different and until laws were invented governing this natural behaviour forbidding rape, we probably raped. The whole caveman thing about clunking a woman over the head and carrying her off is part of our cultural memory and likely depicting this very fact.

Laws therefore govern nature. Instead of doing what might be within every person's animal brains, we restrict ourselves to what's legal. When we don't we become part of the criminal justice system.

Rapists aren't then "rapists" but merely other people with some kind of poorly developed impulse control system we have better-developed that we don't also rape. As with other mental defects, correcting them so they don't do it again depends ont he specific problem. If biological, treatment might require advanced brain surgery or genetic therapy, whereas if some mild behaviour disorder counselling might do the trick. Still others might be so far gone execution or permanent incarceration is the only sure-fire solution to protect society.

No victim of rape is blameable. Could walk stark naked through a dark skid row alley and not be responsible for getting attacked. Might be the stupidest person on earth, but how we approach our sexuality is every bit as much a basic human right as how we approach religion or political theory. The onus is on the aggressor, never the victim. If you think somoene's dressed provocatviely, you shouldn't be looking at them.