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How do you square that with your previous claim that a rapist will always rape?
How do you square that with the fact that I never said that?
Quantum Windbag said:you cannot teach a rapist not to rape anymore than you can teach an arsonist not to light fires
How do you square that with your previous claim that a rapist will always rape?
How do you square that with the fact that I never said that?
Because I read your OP, which said this:
Quantum Windbag said:you cannot teach a rapist not to rape anymore than you can teach an arsonist not to light fires
Needless to say, it's difficult to discuss things with you when your positions reverse so often. On the plus side, I'm glad to see you backpedaling away from your statement in the OP. That's all I wanted to see.
It just sucks that it's so hard to tell whether or not the accuser is lying, like we can with other crimes.It is one of those things where no matter how you look at the picture, there is little to be done to change it.
There are legitimate victims who are doubted and disbelieved, and it sucks thanks to the feminist definition of rape being so watered down that anything can be construed as rape.
There is nothing watered down about consent being the deciding factor between sex and rape.
I remember in college there was a march by fem groups and sororities about issue of date rape. It was a candlelight "take back the night" type of thing. When they marched down Greek row passed the frat's (drunk guys standing outside or on porches) the Greek men began chanting "No means yes! No means yes!" Could not do that today without explosion of PC police. Just saying.
Rape: An Honest Discussion
It's wrong. Discussion over.
Rape: An Honest Discussion
It's wrong. Discussion over.
Not until you define it. This crime has affected people I know and love, so I don't make light of it, but these days it's called rape at any moment, including far past penetration. Sorry, allowing penetration is absolute permission, so don't expect the guy the just stop necessarily. At some point in the act it's akin to trying to stop a train going downhill with no brakes.
The definition has become too broad; the pendulum has swung too far in many cases.
Rape: An Honest Discussion
It's wrong. Discussion over.
Not until you define it. This crime has affected people I know and love, so I don't make light of it, but these days it's called rape at any moment, including far past penetration. Sorry, allowing penetration is absolute permission, so don't expect the guy the just stop necessarily. At some point in the act it's akin to trying to stop a train going downhill with no brakes.
The definition has become too broad; the pendulum has swung too far in many cases.
Sorry, that's rape.
Not until you define it. This crime has affected people I know and love, so I don't make light of it, but these days it's called rape at any moment, including far past penetration. Sorry, allowing penetration is absolute permission, so don't expect the guy the just stop necessarily. At some point in the act it's akin to trying to stop a train going downhill with no brakes.
The definition has become too broad; the pendulum has swung too far in many cases.
Sorry, that's rape.
Bullshit.
There is a lot of hoopla out there about the issues surrounding rape, I want to bring them out here in an attempt to deal with them honestly. I fully intend my posts to be offensive to the crybabies who believe that telling the truth about rape is bad, so if you have a problem with truth feel free to skip this entire discussion.
I actually came across something that I mostly agree with, so I will use it as the foundation of by post.
This is the crux of the problem with some people. Apparently they actually believe that a significant amount of people actually think rape is excusable. If you believe that, you don't belong discussing the issues, you belong in Arkham Asylum. There is no rational basis for saying stupid shit like that, so please keep out of the discussion if the best you can offer is insanity.If you don't believe most people regard rape as abhorrent and vile, don't bother reading further. Subjectivity and objectivity are awkward partners.
The Sacred Cow SlaughterhouseIf you disagree with others on strategies for fighting rape, then we can have a discussion. We probably should, because people seem to be talking past each other. I've largely stayed out of this, but as of late there are a lot of people with unsupportable concepts that don't rise to the level of hypothesis, much less theory, telling women what the world should do for them to end rape.
There are several strategies one should use for dealing with any crime or encroachment. We'll break this down into PREVENTION, AVOIDANCE and REACTION.
Did you get that? The effective strategy for dealing with rape is three steps, prevention, avoidance, and reaction.
This is where rational discussion has been breaking down lately. Telling a woman that she shouldn't be dressed like she is begging for sex and then go walking through a dark alley does not mean that you are supporting rape, it is simply applying common sense rules of survival.
I am a fairly large man, always armed, and here are still places I will not go. I remember walking down a well lighted street once and being approached by a smaller person who was chatting me up and asking me about places to go. We approached an area that I knew would be dark, and I stopped, looked at him, and told him that we were not going to walk down that hill together. Believe it or not, he did not take offense. We both understood the situation, and he respected my decision not to be stupid.
If I had gone down that hill, and been attacked, it would not have been my fault, because the attacker is always responsible for his crimes, but that does not mean that I get to be stupid just because it won't be my fault.
The crux of the matter here is that, despite the empty platitudes of idiots, you cannot teach a rapist not to rape anymore than you can teach an arsonist not to light fires. They don't rape women because they don't know better, they do it because they are sociopaths. This is how they get their thrills, and pretending that we can change them to magically make women safe by changing the culture is only going to lead to more rape victims.
Yes, we can teach normal boys, and men, what is, and is not, appropriate. That won't make an iota of difference to the rapists, but it is still a good idea, and one I fully support. But that does not mean we shouldn't teach women, and girls, how to avoid rape from the people who we cannot reach that way.
I would love to live in a world where women can sleep naked in the park and wake up unmolested, but that world only exists in the imagination. We live in a world where there are people that do not care about others, a world where there are people that enjoy hurting people. There are real live psychopaths out there, pretending that they don't exist simply because you want to pretend that the bad guys are the ones that tell you how to be safe is stupid.
Stop being stupid.
Poor Michael Z. Williamson suffers from the imaginary delusion that conversations in the world are about him. How odd that psychological aliment must be for the narcissist. The site shows a 38 and is named sacred, Freud would have great fun with that picture of false but holy power. Whenever a male tells us we must have a 'honest discussion' you know something is amiss, what would a dishonest discussion look like I wonder? In the end we have the usual it's your fault because you dressed a certain way and walked in a certain place, this isn't a discussion, it is an assumption that given your appearance you asked for it. But wait soon a bit of reality comes forward and we hear that some people do it because that's what they do. They are sick people. That is true but I wonder how many rapes are they guilty of and are there other situations in which power, and maybe drugs or alcohol, play into the rape. That is a place where you haven't dressed for rape. That is where the discussion should take place. How do you control the impulse to take advantage. How do we say clearly this is taboo. So long as the 'you asked for it' mentality exists, the apologies and insane court shenanigans take place. Time we all threw out the excuses.
Poor Michael Z. Williamson suffers from the imaginary delusion that conversations in the world are about him. How odd that psychological aliment must be for the narcissist. The site shows a 38 and is named sacred, Freud would have great fun with that picture of false but holy power. Whenever a male tells us we must have a 'honest discussion' you know something is amiss, what would a dishonest discussion look like I wonder? In the end we have the usual it's your fault because you dressed a certain way and walked in a certain place, this isn't a discussion, it is an assumption that given your appearance you asked for it. But wait soon a bit of reality comes forward and we hear that some people do it because that's what they do. They are sick people. That is true but I wonder how many rapes are they guilty of and are there other situations in which power, and maybe drugs or alcohol, play into the rape. That is a place where you haven't dressed for rape. That is where the discussion should take place. How do you control the impulse to take advantage. How do we say clearly this is taboo. So long as the 'you asked for it' mentality exists, the apologies and insane court shenanigans take place. Time we all threw out the excuses.
There is a lot of hoopla out there about the issues surrounding rape, I want to bring them out here in an attempt to deal with them honestly. I fully intend my posts to be offensive to the crybabies who believe that telling the truth about rape is bad, so if you have a problem with truth feel free to skip this entire discussion.
I actually came across something that I mostly agree with, so I will use it as the foundation of by post.
This is the crux of the problem with some people. Apparently they actually believe that a significant amount of people actually think rape is excusable. If you believe that, you don't belong discussing the issues, you belong in Arkham Asylum. There is no rational basis for saying stupid shit like that, so please keep out of the discussion if the best you can offer is insanity.If you don't believe most people regard rape as abhorrent and vile, don't bother reading further. Subjectivity and objectivity are awkward partners.
The Sacred Cow SlaughterhouseIf you disagree with others on strategies for fighting rape, then we can have a discussion. We probably should, because people seem to be talking past each other. I've largely stayed out of this, but as of late there are a lot of people with unsupportable concepts that don't rise to the level of hypothesis, much less theory, telling women what the world should do for them to end rape.
There are several strategies one should use for dealing with any crime or encroachment. We'll break this down into PREVENTION, AVOIDANCE and REACTION.
Did you get that? The effective strategy for dealing with rape is three steps, prevention, avoidance, and reaction.
This is where rational discussion has been breaking down lately. Telling a woman that she shouldn't be dressed like she is begging for sex and then go walking through a dark alley does not mean that you are supporting rape, it is simply applying common sense rules of survival.
I am a fairly large man, always armed, and here are still places I will not go. I remember walking down a well lighted street once and being approached by a smaller person who was chatting me up and asking me about places to go. We approached an area that I knew would be dark, and I stopped, looked at him, and told him that we were not going to walk down that hill together. Believe it or not, he did not take offense. We both understood the situation, and he respected my decision not to be stupid.
If I had gone down that hill, and been attacked, it would not have been my fault, because the attacker is always responsible for his crimes, but that does not mean that I get to be stupid just because it won't be my fault.
The crux of the matter here is that, despite the empty platitudes of idiots, you cannot teach a rapist not to rape anymore than you can teach an arsonist not to light fires. They don't rape women because they don't know better, they do it because they are sociopaths. This is how they get their thrills, and pretending that we can change them to magically make women safe by changing the culture is only going to lead to more rape victims.
Yes, we can teach normal boys, and men, what is, and is not, appropriate. That won't make an iota of difference to the rapists, but it is still a good idea, and one I fully support. But that does not mean we shouldn't teach women, and girls, how to avoid rape from the people who we cannot reach that way.
I would love to live in a world where women can sleep naked in the park and wake up unmolested, but that world only exists in the imagination. We live in a world where there are people that do not care about others, a world where there are people that enjoy hurting people. There are real live psychopaths out there, pretending that they don't exist simply because you want to pretend that the bad guys are the ones that tell you how to be safe is stupid.
Stop being stupid.
Unfortunately, rape, or what we humans would call rape, is a naturally occuring behaviour in the animal kingdom. Been out n about lately (and why I haven't been on here) enjoying the nice weather and watching the critters. Among them birds. Morning Doves and whatever these little brown ones are exhibit what I'd call rape and full-out gang bangs of females. The doves in particular will gang up 6 or 7 on 1 female and engage is what I assume is mating, though calling it anything other than rape is perhaps overly kind. As an animal which is part of this nature system, humans are likely no different and until laws were invented governing this natural behaviour forbidding rape, we probably raped. The whole caveman thing about clunking a woman over the head and carrying her off is part of our cultural memory and likely depicting this very fact.
Laws therefore govern nature. Instead of doing what might be within every person's animal brains, we restrict ourselves to what's legal. When we don't we become part of the criminal justice system.
Rapists aren't then "rapists" but merely other people with some kind of poorly developed impulse control system we have better-developed that we don't also rape. As with other mental defects, correcting them so they don't do it again depends ont he specific problem. If biological, treatment might require advanced brain surgery or genetic therapy, whereas if some mild behaviour disorder counselling might do the trick. Still others might be so far gone execution or permanent incarceration is the only sure-fire solution to protect society.
No victim of rape is blameable. Could walk stark naked through a dark skid row alley and not be responsible for getting attacked. Might be the stupidest person on earth, but how we approach our sexuality is every bit as much a basic human right as how we approach religion or political theory. The onus is on the aggressor, never the victim. If you think somoene's dressed provocatviely, you shouldn't be looking at them.
Yes the aggressor is at fault. As the OP says, nobody is saying that rape is ok because the girl was scantily clad. But if dressing a certain way increases your chances to be raped why would you not encourage women to dress another way? She should be free to dress however she wants? Sure! That's great. I'm all for freedom.
You are also free to ride a motor cycle without a helmet. Some precautions save lives, some save virtue.
Yes the aggressor is at fault. As the OP says, nobody is saying that rape is ok because the girl was scantily clad. But if dressing a certain way increases your chances to be raped why would you not encourage women to dress another way? She should be free to dress however she wants? Sure! That's great. I'm all for freedom.
You are also free to ride a motor cycle without a helmet. Some precautions save lives, some save virtue.
The issue with this argument is that most victims of rape know their perpetrator personally. Forcible rape in a parking lot or alleyway is not the norm. There have been studies performed on those convicted of those forcible rape of strangers and the vast majority are unable to give an accurate description of what their victim was wearing when they attacked.
Yes the aggressor is at fault. As the OP says, nobody is saying that rape is ok because the girl was scantily clad. But if dressing a certain way increases your chances to be raped why would you not encourage women to dress another way? She should be free to dress however she wants? Sure! That's great. I'm all for freedom.
You are also free to ride a motor cycle without a helmet. Some precautions save lives, some save virtue.
The issue with this argument is that most victims of rape know their perpetrator personally. Forcible rape in a parking lot or alleyway is not the norm. There have been studies performed on those convicted of those forcible rape of strangers and the vast majority are unable to give an accurate description of what their victim was wearing when they attacked.
Just because they can't describe it does not mean it did not register on a more primal level. If I see a sexy girl walk by wearing practically nothing I couldn't describe her clothes either. And does knowing someone personally erase the effect of dressing suggestively? Spending more time around someone dressed sexually is going to have more of a effect. Someone mentally unstable enough to rape could see it as an invitation.
So again, does it not make sense to encourage people to dress and act more conservatively for their own safety?
