Pro-life? or anti-abortion?

[Sky Dancer]

Almost any implement you can imagine had been and was used to start an abortion — darning needles, crochet hooks, cut-glass salt shakers, soda bottles, sometimes intact, sometimes with the top broken off.

Another method that I did not encounter, but heard about from colleagues in other hospitals, was a soap solution forced through the cervical canal with a syringe. This could cause almost immediate death if a bubble in the solution entered a blood vessel and was transported to the heart.

The worst case I saw, and one I hope no one else will ever have to face, was that of a nurse who was admitted with what looked like a partly delivered umbilical cord. Yet as soon as we examined her, we realized that what we thought was the cord was in fact part of her intestine, which had been hooked and torn by whatever implement had been used in the abortion. It took six hours of surgery to remove the infected uterus and ovaries and repair the part of the bowel that was still functional.

It is important to remember that Roe v. Wade did not mean that abortions could be performed. They have always been done, dating from ancient Greek days.

What Roe said was that ending a pregnancy could be carried out by medical personnel, in a medically accepted setting, thus conferring on women, finally, the full rights of first-class citizens — and freeing their doctors to treat them as such.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/03/health/views/03essa.html

 

[logical4u]

Here are these poor women, going to have a abortion, knowing damn well what they are doing and probably none too happy about it. They get out of the car and here are these people yelling at them, foaming at the mouth with rage, telling them they are murderers and they shall rot in a fiery hell. I doubt those people could ever understand how horrible they really are themselves.

I am against abortion, but I don't identify with this rabid, re-criminalisation movement.

Spreading fear by bombings, murder and assault is not 'pro-life'. Dr Tiller was murdered outside his church.

Here's the kind of guy who scares the crap out of me.

"Let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good.... If a Christian voted for Clinton, he sinned against God. It's that simple.... Our goal is a Christian Nation... we have a biblical duty, we are called by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want Pluralism. We want theocracy. Theocracy means God rules. I've got a hot flash. God rules."

[Randall Terry, Head of Operation Rescue, from The News Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana, Aug 15, 1993]

"When I, or people like me, are running the country, you'd better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we will execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed... If we're going to have true reformation in America, it is because men once again, if I may use a worn out expression, have righteous testoserone flowing through their veins. They are not afraid of contempt for their contemporaries. They are not even here to get along. They are here to take over... Somebody like Susan Smith should be dead. She should be dead now. Some people will go, "Well how do you know God doesn't have a wonderful plan for her life?" He does, it's listed in the Bible. His plan for her is that she should be dead."

[Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue, at the Aug 8, 1995 U.S. Taxpayers Alliance Banquet in Washington DC, talking about doctors who perform abortions and volunteer escorts]

Randall Terry is a nutcase.

Funny, you have nothing like this to say about "people yelling at them, foaming at the mouth with rage, telling them they are murderers and they shall rot in a fiery hell. I doubt those people could ever understand how horrible they really are themselves. " when it is done by muslim extremists. In fact you want to point out all those "moderate" muslims. Don't you think that there are far more "moderate" Pro-lifers (or your term anti-abortionist)"? Yet, there is only mention of those that "you" want to call fanatics. Again, your criticism is soooo selective.

This is not the thread on Islam. Stick to the topic.

I am pointing out your inability to stay consistant. Just sayin.....

 

[chanel]

Interesting stats sky, but when was the pill invented? The IUD? The shot? Etc. There should only be a 1 percent rate of unwanted pregnancies.

 

[logical4u]

“If the anti-abortion movement took a tenth of the energy they put into noisy theatrics and devoted it to improving the lives of children who have been born into lives of poverty, violence, and neglect, they could make a world shine.”

Michael J. Tucker

If the money spent on abortions went to feed the "children", there would be no starving children in the USA. See how those wacky statements work.

I'm not in favor of back alley procedures, women sticking themselves with knitting needles and bleeding to death, are you?

That's what will happen if abortion is re-criminalized.

"Before Roe, desperate women used a number of dangerous means to terminate pregnancies. Some sought abortions from back-alley abortionists, with usually humiliating and sometimes deadly results.

Other women tried to induce abortions with homemade means--such as a bleach douche, or inserting sharp instruments into her cervix. This is why the now almost forgotten image of the wire coat hanger became the symbol of the abortion rights movement.

"In Chicago, at Cook Country Hospital, there were about 5,000 women a year coming in with injuries bleeding resulting to illegal abortions, mostly self-induced abortions," Leslie Reagan, the author of When Abortion Was a Crime, said in an interview. "They had an entire ward dedicated to taking care of people in that situation. Those wards pretty much closed up around the country once abortion was legalized."

In an eight-year period at the Chicago Lying-In clinic, 67 percent of the women who had therapeutic abortions were sterilized at the same time, according to Reagan's When Abortion Was a Crime.
Gynecologists around the country would only perform abortions as part of a "package deal"--an abortion and sterilization. But this didn't apply to all patients--not those better off, and mainly white.
Elizabeth Schulte: Abortion Before Roe

Where did I say that I wanted abortion criminalized (BTW a woman can abort a baby during a coughing illness, involuntarily)? That would mean more government, something, I do oppose.

Have you noticed how the statistics on how many women die from abortions, mysteriously stopped once abortion became legal? Do you want to talk about the doctor in Philadelphia that murdered the "babies" after birthing them because the mother wanted an abortion? Do you want to mention how many women he damaged?

Again back to far out statements: how many "poor children" do you think could be fed off the money of "encouraged abortions"? How many billions are made off of these women with planned parenthood encouraging "repeat" proceedures?

 

[AllieBaba]

Estimates of the number of illegal abortions in the 1950s and 1960s ranged from 200,000 to 1.2 million per year. One analysis, extrapolating from data from North Carolina, concluded that an estimated 829,000 illegal or self-induced abortions occurred in 1967.

One stark indication of the prevalence of illegal abortion was the death toll. In 1930, abortion was listed as the official cause of death for almost 2,700 women—nearly one-fifth (18%) of maternal deaths recorded in that year. The death toll had declined to just under 1,700 by 1940, and to just over 300 by 1950 (most likely because of the introduction of antibiotics in the 1940s, which permitted more effective treatment of the infections that frequently developed after illegal abortion). By 1965, the number of deaths due to illegal abortion had fallen to just under 200, but illegal abortion still accounted for 17% of all deaths attributed to pregnancy and childbirth that year. And these are just the number that were officially reported; the actual number was likely much higher.

Poor women and their families were disproportionately impacted. A study of low-income women in New York City in the 1960s found that almost one in 10 (8%) had ever attempted to terminate a pregnancy by illegal abortion; almost four in 10 (38%) said that a friend, relative or acquaintance had attempted to obtain an abortion. Of the low-income women in that study who said they had had an abortion, eight in 10 (77%) said that they had attempted a self-induced procedure, with only 2% saying that a physician had been involved in any way.

In 1962 alone, nearly 1,600 women were admitted to Harlem Hospital Center in New York City for incomplete abortions, which was one abortion-related hospital admission for every 42 deliveries at that hospital that year. In 1968, the University of Southern California Los Angeles County Medical Center, another large public facility serving primarily indigent patients, admitted 701 women with septic abortions, one admission for every 14 deliveries.



Lessons from Before Roe: Will Past be Prologue?

You do understand that those numbers mean exactly nothing, as there are no records of any of that?

And yes, infections following BIRTH (based on the terminology *maternal deaths* used as indicator of abortion) were much higher back then, as pennicillin and other antibiotics weren't available, nor was a lot known about sterilization. More infections followed abortions because it's a risky procedure.

Infections STILL follow abortions, Sky, for all you like to present it as a warm and fuzzy *safe* procedure. Death still follows abortion as well.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Funny, you have nothing like this to say about "people yelling at them, foaming at the mouth with rage, telling them they are murderers and they shall rot in a fiery hell. I doubt those people could ever understand how horrible they really are themselves. " when it is done by muslim extremists. In fact you want to point out all those "moderate" muslims. Don't you think that there are far more "moderate" Pro-lifers (or your term anti-abortionist)"? Yet, there is only mention of those that "you" want to call fanatics. Again, your criticism is soooo selective.

This is not the thread on Islam. Stick to the topic.

I am pointing out your inability to stay consistant. Just sayin.....

If you want to point that out stay with the thread topic, logical, show inconsistencies in my posts on the abortion topic.

OK?

I'm happy to discuss Islam or Dominionism on another thread.

 

[Sky Dancer]

If the money spent on abortions went to feed the "children", there would be no starving children in the USA. See how those wacky statements work.

I'm not in favor of back alley procedures, women sticking themselves with knitting needles and bleeding to death, are you?

That's what will happen if abortion is re-criminalized.

"Before Roe, desperate women used a number of dangerous means to terminate pregnancies. Some sought abortions from back-alley abortionists, with usually humiliating and sometimes deadly results.

Other women tried to induce abortions with homemade means--such as a bleach douche, or inserting sharp instruments into her cervix. This is why the now almost forgotten image of the wire coat hanger became the symbol of the abortion rights movement.

"In Chicago, at Cook Country Hospital, there were about 5,000 women a year coming in with injuries bleeding resulting to illegal abortions, mostly self-induced abortions," Leslie Reagan, the author of When Abortion Was a Crime, said in an interview. "They had an entire ward dedicated to taking care of people in that situation. Those wards pretty much closed up around the country once abortion was legalized."

In an eight-year period at the Chicago Lying-In clinic, 67 percent of the women who had therapeutic abortions were sterilized at the same time, according to Reagan's When Abortion Was a Crime.
Gynecologists around the country would only perform abortions as part of a "package deal"--an abortion and sterilization. But this didn't apply to all patients--not those better off, and mainly white.
Elizabeth Schulte: Abortion Before Roe

Where did I say that I wanted abortion criminalized (BTW a woman can abort a baby during a coughing illness, involuntarily)? That would mean more government, something, I do oppose.

Have you noticed how the statistics on how many women die from abortions, mysteriously stopped once abortion became legal? Do you want to talk about the doctor in Philadelphia that murdered the "babies" after birthing them because the mother wanted an abortion? Do you want to mention how many women he damaged?

Again back to far out statements: how many "poor children" do you think could be fed off the money of "encouraged abortions"? How many billions are made off of these women with planned parenthood encouraging "repeat" proceedures?

Are you saying you are pro-choice?

I'm not into abortions at all. I'm just not a supporter of making abortion illegal.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Regarding abortion stats. Both the right to life organizations and planned parenthood and NOW keep them.

Do we have any non-partisan abortion stats?

 

[Provocateur]

What is perplexing is that the OP wants to question how conservatives can be anti-abortion and simultaneously pro-war and/or pro capital punishment, however the OP doesn't have a question as to why liberals are pro abortion (call it pro-choice if it makes one uncomfortable) but against capital punishment and going to war.

Demented thinking process, in my humble opinion.

 

[logical4u]

I'm not in favor of back alley procedures, women sticking themselves with knitting needles and bleeding to death, are you?

That's what will happen if abortion is re-criminalized.

"Before Roe, desperate women used a number of dangerous means to terminate pregnancies. Some sought abortions from back-alley abortionists, with usually humiliating and sometimes deadly results.

Other women tried to induce abortions with homemade means--such as a bleach douche, or inserting sharp instruments into her cervix. This is why the now almost forgotten image of the wire coat hanger became the symbol of the abortion rights movement.

"In Chicago, at Cook Country Hospital, there were about 5,000 women a year coming in with injuries bleeding resulting to illegal abortions, mostly self-induced abortions," Leslie Reagan, the author of When Abortion Was a Crime, said in an interview. "They had an entire ward dedicated to taking care of people in that situation. Those wards pretty much closed up around the country once abortion was legalized."

In an eight-year period at the Chicago Lying-In clinic, 67 percent of the women who had therapeutic abortions were sterilized at the same time, according to Reagan's When Abortion Was a Crime.
Gynecologists around the country would only perform abortions as part of a "package deal"--an abortion and sterilization. But this didn't apply to all patients--not those better off, and mainly white.
Elizabeth Schulte: Abortion Before Roe

Where did I say that I wanted abortion criminalized (BTW a woman can abort a baby during a coughing illness, involuntarily)? That would mean more government, something, I do oppose.

Have you noticed how the statistics on how many women die from abortions, mysteriously stopped once abortion became legal? Do you want to talk about the doctor in Philadelphia that murdered the "babies" after birthing them because the mother wanted an abortion? Do you want to mention how many women he damaged?

Again back to far out statements: how many "poor children" do you think could be fed off the money of "encouraged abortions"? How many billions are made off of these women with planned parenthood encouraging "repeat" proceedures?

Are you saying you are pro-choice?

I'm not into abortions at all. I'm just not a supporter of making abortion illegal.

Do you want to stay on topic? How many billions of dollars that are used for abortion could be used to feed the "poor children"?

 

[Sky Dancer]

What is perplexing is that the OP wants to question how conservatives can be anti-abortion and simultaneously pro-war and/or pro capital punishment, however the OP doesn't have a question as to why liberals are pro abortion (call it pro-choice if it makes one uncomfortable) but against capital punishment and going to war.

Demented thinking process, in my humble opinion.

No it's not 'demented thinking'. I'm against abortion, war, and capital punishment. I don't feel abortion that criminalizing abortion all over again would reduce the number of abortions performed.

What would happen is we would return to unsafe abortions being performed by unlicensed people in back alley settings.

We've done that before and it was a disaster.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Where did I say that I wanted abortion criminalized (BTW a woman can abort a baby during a coughing illness, involuntarily)? That would mean more government, something, I do oppose.

Have you noticed how the statistics on how many women die from abortions, mysteriously stopped once abortion became legal? Do you want to talk about the doctor in Philadelphia that murdered the "babies" after birthing them because the mother wanted an abortion? Do you want to mention how many women he damaged?

Again back to far out statements: how many "poor children" do you think could be fed off the money of "encouraged abortions"? How many billions are made off of these women with planned parenthood encouraging "repeat" proceedures?

Are you saying you are pro-choice?

I'm not into abortions at all. I'm just not a supporter of making abortion illegal.

Do you want to stay on topic? How many billions of dollars that are used for abortion could be used to feed the "poor children"?

You answer my question and I'll answer yours. You said you are NOT in support of abortion being re-criminalized. Does that mean you are pro-choice?

Truth is some people focusing on legal abortion are seemingly unconcerned by the risks in illegal procedures.

There is some risk involved in ANY medical procedure, but in legal ones, there is less risk.

 

[AllieBaba]

You can't prove it was a disaster. More abortions take place now than ever took place in the past. People still die from legal and illegal abortions. Child abuse, neglect and abandonment haven't decreased since the advent of legalized abortion, they have INCREASED exponentially. The whole myth pertaining to the vast numbers of women who died NOT because of natural miscarriages, NOT because of a lack of hygiene, knowledge, and antibiotics, but JUST because back-alley abortions were being performed is just that...a myth. Abortionists didn't keep the numbers then, and they don't now. And the people who are compiling those numbers and perpetuating the whole myth that surrounds the "abortion is sad but we have to promote it anyway" religion are not all that scrupulous when it comes to putting numbers together. They borrow their numbers from things like first-pregnancy deaths, maternal deaths, post-partum infection that includes women who deliver babies at term, who miscarry naturally AND who sought out abortions....

The truth of the matter is, in order to ensure abortion (a.k.a. D&C in the old days...) can still be performed in the event of medical necessity, rape, incest....abortion per se doesnt' have to be "legal". All that legalizing abortion does is allow the huge money maker that is PP into politics, for the purpose of cleansing the population and promoting a progressive agenda.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I have proved it was a disaster. You're ignoring the evidence.

Cook Country Hospital, 5,000 women a year coming in with injuries bleeding resulting to illegal abortions, mostly self-induced abortion.

In 1962 alone, nearly 1,600 women were admitted to Harlem Hospital Center in New York City for incomplete abortions, which was one abortion-related hospital admission for every 42 deliveries at that hospital that year.

Of the 46 million abortions occurring worldwide each year, 20 million take place in countries where abortion is prohibited by law. "Facts in Brief: Induced Abortion Worldwide, 2003," Alan Guttmacher Institute.

"Facts in Brief: Induced Abortion Worldwide, 2003," Alan Guttmacher Institute.

According to the WHO, in countries where abortion remains unsafe it is a leading cause of maternal mortality,accounting for 78,000 of the 600,000 annual pregnancy-related deaths worldwide.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Democrats are "pro abortion" the same way the GOP is "pro starvation". Oh wait, according to Andre Bauer, the GOP really is "pro starvation". Nevermind.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...-pro-life-or-anti-abortion-7.html#post3421465

Are you saying that a person who claims to be pro choice and then denigrates someone for choosing not to have an abortion is a Democrat? Is that your final answer?

Democrats are not "pro abortion". Most are "pro women's rights". Saying Democrats are "Pro Abortion" is disgusting. Right wingers make it sound as if women get pregnant just for the thrill of getting an abortion. That Democrats look for the chance to have "abortion parties".

What can you expect. Right wingers, for the most part, are a pretty dirty group. We know what they are against, which is pretty much everything that will help the country. But what are they "for". Besides tax cuts for rich people and ending SS, Medicare, education and the EPA. Oh, and if Andre Bauer is any indication, "starving the poor".

Thank you for admitting you were lying earlier. What I do not understand is why you want to lump all those Democrats in with yourself for though.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Wars have happened during both Democrat and Republican administrations. There is no such thing as being pro-abortion.

No one likes abortions.

What I fail to understand is why you refuse to admit the facts that prove you are incorrect in painting with a broad brush. If no one was pro abortion there would never be a controversy when someone makes an ad that affirms the choice to give birth. I know an ad like the one done by Pam Tebow, yet some people were up in arms.

Just because you are not pro abortion, that does not mean that everyone is not.

 

[Gadawg73]

You obviously very little attention to people.

Telll me something, what term would you use to describe a person that claims to be pro choice and then denigrates a person who chooses not to have an abortion? Isn't choosing to give birth a choice? Or is it possible that some of those pro choice people are actually pro abortion.

First of all, show me that person. Where are they?
Anyone that denigrates anyone for a private family decision does not have my respect.
Yes.
I don't know any.
How many denigrate women that have an abortion? Are you against that or are you on the sidelines with pictures of dead babies, yelling at them while they attempt to enter a doctor's office?

You kid yourself.

Every woman who has had an abortion without regret is pro abortion Every woman who has had more than one embraces abortion.

Your splitting hairs is just bogus and unworthy of any respect So what they are being shown for the killers they are? If you're fine with killing the unborn you should grow a thicker skin and man up about how you look in the eyes of those who aren't.

How do you know what "every woman that has had an abortion" feels? Are you psychic?
Who the hell are you to judge a woman that had an abortion for any reason, medical or whatever the reason?
I do not ask for or want your respect. I have been shot at, beat up and left for dead. Why don't you grow some stones and back up YOUR opinions on how YOU feel and what YOU believe instead of playing psychic and telling everyone else what they should do and what they believe? Govern yourself accordingly.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I know no one that is "pro abortion".
That term is right wing spin.

You obviously very little attention to people.

Telll me something, what term would you use to describe a person that claims to be pro choice and then denigrates a person who chooses not to have an abortion? Isn't choosing to give birth a choice? Or is it possible that some of those pro choice people are actually pro abortion.

First of all, show me that person. Where are they?
Anyone that denigrates anyone for a private family decision does not have my respect.
Yes.
I don't know any.
How many denigrate women that have an abortion? Are you against that or are you on the sidelines with pictures of dead babies, yelling at them while they attempt to enter a doctor's office?

Just one?

Women's groups urge CBS to jettison Tim Tebow Super Bowl ad - USATODAY.com

Why get upset about an ad that does nothing more than talk about a woman's choice to have a baby?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

“If the anti-abortion movement took a tenth of the energy they put into noisy theatrics and devoted it to improving the lives of children who have been born into lives of poverty, violence, and neglect, they could make a world shine.”

Michael J. Tucker

If the money spent on abortions went to feed the "children", there would be no starving children in the USA. See how those wacky statements work.

I'm not in favor of back alley procedures, women sticking themselves with knitting needles and bleeding to death, are you?

That's what will happen if abortion is re-criminalized.

"Before Roe, desperate women used a number of dangerous means to terminate pregnancies. Some sought abortions from back-alley abortionists, with usually humiliating and sometimes deadly results.

Other women tried to induce abortions with homemade means--such as a bleach douche, or inserting sharp instruments into her cervix. This is why the now almost forgotten image of the wire coat hanger became the symbol of the abortion rights movement.

"In Chicago, at Cook Country Hospital, there were about 5,000 women a year coming in with injuries bleeding resulting to illegal abortions, mostly self-induced abortions," Leslie Reagan, the author of When Abortion Was a Crime, said in an interview. "They had an entire ward dedicated to taking care of people in that situation. Those wards pretty much closed up around the country once abortion was legalized."

In an eight-year period at the Chicago Lying-In clinic, 67 percent of the women who had therapeutic abortions were sterilized at the same time, according to Reagan's When Abortion Was a Crime.
Gynecologists around the country would only perform abortions as part of a "package deal"--an abortion and sterilization. But this didn't apply to all patients--not those better off, and mainly white.
Elizabeth Schulte: Abortion Before Roe

Margret Sanger at her best.

Don't you find it strange that you argue that the only alternative if abortion is illegal is a back alley abortion, and then provide a link that proves you are wrong? If you do a little research you will find that "back alley" abortions are nothing more than a myth, and that the fatality rate from abortions remained pretty constant before and after Roe v Wade.

 

[Gadawg73]

You obviously very little attention to people.

Telll me something, what term would you use to describe a person that claims to be pro choice and then denigrates a person who chooses not to have an abortion? Isn't choosing to give birth a choice? Or is it possible that some of those pro choice people are actually pro abortion.

First of all, show me that person. Where are they?
Anyone that denigrates anyone for a private family decision does not have my respect.
Yes.
I don't know any.
How many denigrate women that have an abortion? Are you against that or are you on the sidelines with pictures of dead babies, yelling at them while they attempt to enter a doctor's office?

Just one?

Women's groups urge CBS to jettison Tim Tebow Super Bowl ad - USATODAY.com

Why get upset about an ad that does nothing more than talk about a woman's choice to have a baby?

Where is there someone that "denigrates a person that chooses not to have an abortion"?

Where? What is the woman's name that was denigrated and who was the person that denigrated?
As usual, you are strong in the Windbag department and seriously lacking in the evidence to back up your claims department.