Pro-life? or anti-abortion?

[R.D.]

Make no mistake, feminists consider each every baby aborted a victory for 'the cause'.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Bye Allie.

 

[logical4u]

Trying to find clarity. Recently I have been involved in talks with people who claim to be "Pro-Life" in the "Anti-Abortion issue". Yet these people supported the war in Iraq, or support the death penalty.

It seems to me that if you are "Pro-Life" you are against war of any kind for any reason, against the death penalty in any form or for any reason, against leathal self defense, and a vegetarian. Anything other than that you are "Anti-something" i.e. anti-abortion, anti-death penalty, or anti war.

To all the pro-lifers please get your lable right as you tend to confuse others by mislabling yourself as pro life when you are not pro life at all, but anti abortion.

This gets me to thinking, I wonder how many people are actually "Pro life" instead of Anti-abortion?

If you believe that "killing" someone that murders (often after rape or torture) doesn't protect life, IMHO you have a serious problem with reason.

If you believe that protecting life by standing up to those that would murder another because they do not believe as the aggressor or if the aggressor is simply plundering, leaving devestation in their wake, you have a problem with reason.

If you believe that babies should be killed inside the most protected space (where every person starts) any human being ever has, you have a serious problem with reason.

The first two protect the vulnerable. The third murders the MOST vulnerable.

If you were absolutely helpless for a short while, would you want someone to murder you because it costs? If you think that, do you agree with nationalized healthcare because that would put helpless people into the inconvenient postion of depending on another person? According to those that support abortion, that should be enough to end the lives of those on healthcare: inconvenience.

 

[logical4u]

Since the 'so-called' pro-life movement takes the moral high ground, why are they so extremist and angry?

The anti-choice movement, rather than being full of good hearted folks who just have a thing for fetuses, are actually hard hearted sexist ideologues.

Check out this training manual for the anti-choice movement:
http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/emailphotos/pdf/Anti-Choice-Handbook.pdf

sooooo selective with your criticism.

 

[logical4u]

"Pro-death"......

Last I checked no one makes you get an abortion therefore it is still a choice.

The baby has no choice, does she?

The fetus in question, cannot voice an opinion one way or another. The mother should have a choice it's her body. The only horrible part is the father to be doesn't get a say, and in that regard I would give in that it isn't really Pro-choice either. The only way to end abortion is for the fetus to be granted full rights and a social security number at conception, therefore it would be protected under the constitution. Until it has full rights it is still a parasite living off the human host.

So you think national health care should be used to kill all the parasites?

 

[Gadawg73]

I know no one that is "pro abortion".
That term is right wing spin.

You obviously very little attention to people.

Telll me something, what term would you use to describe a person that claims to be pro choice and then denigrates a person who chooses not to have an abortion? Isn't choosing to give birth a choice? Or is it possible that some of those pro choice people are actually pro abortion.

First of all, show me that person. Where are they?
Anyone that denigrates anyone for a private family decision does not have my respect.
Yes.
I don't know any.
How many denigrate women that have an abortion? Are you against that or are you on the sidelines with pictures of dead babies, yelling at them while they attempt to enter a doctor's office?

 

[logical4u]

I happen to be pro-choice sky (with reasonable restrictions). I just think the OP was being hypocritical. And yes - there are pro-abortion folks. They are just ashamed to admit it. Wonder why.

I agree. I think the 'pro-life' crowd should just call themselves what they are, anti-abortion, pro-FETAL life only.

There are some who would call you and I who are pro-choice, pro-abortion. That's wrong.

Are they going around murdering babies, after they are born? Do they kill children? As usual, you choose to see things from the narrowest of views.

 

[logical4u]

No woman seeking an abortion does so unthinkingly. Few, if any, women use abortion as birth control, although the religious right would have us believe otherwise. And women seeking abortions do not need moralistic lectures about the horrors they are about to commit. To require them to have an ultrasound prior to an abortion is the most invasive type of moralistic lecture imaginable. Some state laws would even require poor women to pay for them, which would put the cost of abortion beyond their meager reach.

Links?

 

[mal]

Trying to find clarity. Recently I have been involved in talks with people who claim to be "Pro-Life" in the "Anti-Abortion issue". Yet these people supported the war in Iraq, or support the death penalty.

It seems to me that if you are "Pro-Life" you are against war of any kind for any reason, against the death penalty in any form or for any reason, against leathal self defense, and a vegetarian. Anything other than that you are "Anti-something" i.e. anti-abortion, anti-death penalty, or anti war.

To all the pro-lifers please get your lable right as you tend to confuse others by mislabling yourself as pro life when you are not pro life at all, but anti abortion.

This gets me to thinking, I wonder how many people are actually "Pro life" instead of Anti-abortion?

If the Child in the Womb was given the same Due Process that Raping Murderers were given, then maybe...



peace...

 

[logical4u]

Here are these poor women, going to have a abortion, knowing damn well what they are doing and probably none too happy about it. They get out of the car and here are these people yelling at them, foaming at the mouth with rage, telling them they are murderers and they shall rot in a fiery hell. I doubt those people could ever understand how horrible they really are themselves.

I am against abortion, but I don't identify with this rabid, re-criminalisation movement.

Spreading fear by bombings, murder and assault is not 'pro-life'. Dr Tiller was murdered outside his church.

Here's the kind of guy who scares the crap out of me.

"Let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good.... If a Christian voted for Clinton, he sinned against God. It's that simple.... Our goal is a Christian Nation... we have a biblical duty, we are called by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want Pluralism. We want theocracy. Theocracy means God rules. I've got a hot flash. God rules."

[Randall Terry, Head of Operation Rescue, from The News Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana, Aug 15, 1993]

"When I, or people like me, are running the country, you'd better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we will execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed... If we're going to have true reformation in America, it is because men once again, if I may use a worn out expression, have righteous testoserone flowing through their veins. They are not afraid of contempt for their contemporaries. They are not even here to get along. They are here to take over... Somebody like Susan Smith should be dead. She should be dead now. Some people will go, "Well how do you know God doesn't have a wonderful plan for her life?" He does, it's listed in the Bible. His plan for her is that she should be dead."

[Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue, at the Aug 8, 1995 U.S. Taxpayers Alliance Banquet in Washington DC, talking about doctors who perform abortions and volunteer escorts]

Randall Terry is a nutcase.

Funny, you have nothing like this to say about "people yelling at them, foaming at the mouth with rage, telling them they are murderers and they shall rot in a fiery hell. I doubt those people could ever understand how horrible they really are themselves. " when it is done by muslim extremists. In fact you want to point out all those "moderate" muslims. Don't you think that there are far more "moderate" Pro-lifers (or your term anti-abortionist)"? Yet, there is only mention of those that "you" want to call fanatics. Again, your criticism is soooo selective.

 

[Gadawg73]

I adamantly oppose abortion.
As a true conservative at the voting booth for the last 39 years I oppose big GOVERNMENT and giving them the sole authority to decide who can legally have an abortion and who goes to prison for having one. Amazing how so called wannahbe "conservatives" cry, bitch and moan about how much they hate government and want LESS GOVERNMENT, rally for more power for government when their preacher dictates tells them to.
Now a quick history lesson for the brain dead uninformed citizenry here:
Overturn Roe v. Wade? OK, let us assume that happened today. Guess what you uneducated masses?
ALL that accomplishes is that it goes back to the states and state legislatures. Now to be sure some states will ban it outright 100%, ok by me, and some states will limit it with some restrictions, ok by me and some states will allow it totally legal, also ok by me.
All THAT DOES is make it harder for poor women to travel to the states where it will be legal on demand, like it or not THERE WILL BE MANY STATES, that it will be legal on demand.
So the NET RESULT IS: More children born to WOMAN THAT DO NOT WANT THEM AND ARE INCAPABLE OF RAISING THEM PROPERLY.
For the majority of the women it will just be a matter of getting in a car or airplane and traveling to a state where it is legal.
Well DUH.
One would think that a real conservative would be interested in GETTING BIG GOVERNMENT OFF OUR BACKS.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Make no mistake, feminists consider each every baby aborted a victory for 'the cause'.

I'm a feminist. I don't celebrate abortions of fetuses as victories for a cause. It is a tragedy. It's the loss of potential human beings.

The fact that abortions are legal means they are safe medical procedures, performed by a licensed MD, not in a back alley by an untrained criminal with the risk of infection and death of the woman.

Some women choose abortion. It's an option whether we like it or not. The question is whether abortion should be legal or not. I am against abortion, and against re-criminalizing abortion.

 

[logical4u]

“If the anti-abortion movement took a tenth of the energy they put into noisy theatrics and devoted it to improving the lives of children who have been born into lives of poverty, violence, and neglect, they could make a world shine.”

Michael J. Tucker

If the money spent on abortions went to feed the "children", there would be no starving children in the USA. See how those wacky statements work.

 

[AllieBaba]

The baby has no choice, does she?

The fetus in question, cannot voice an opinion one way or another. The mother should have a choice it's her body. The only horrible part is the father to be doesn't get a say, and in that regard I would give in that it isn't really Pro-choice either. The only way to end abortion is for the fetus to be granted full rights and a social security number at conception, therefore it would be protected under the constitution. Until it has full rights it is still a parasite living off the human host.

So you think national health care should be used to kill all the parasites?

Or that government determines who is a person and who is not.

 

[AllieBaba]

Make no mistake, feminists consider each every baby aborted a victory for 'the cause'.

I'm a feminist. I don't celebrate abortions as victories for a cause.

The fact that abortions are legal means they are safe medical procedures, performed by a licensed MD, not in a back alley.

Legalization = safe now?

Really? I'm fairly certain that adult people have died in *legal* abortion clinics.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Here are these poor women, going to have a abortion, knowing damn well what they are doing and probably none too happy about it. They get out of the car and here are these people yelling at them, foaming at the mouth with rage, telling them they are murderers and they shall rot in a fiery hell. I doubt those people could ever understand how horrible they really are themselves.

I am against abortion, but I don't identify with this rabid, re-criminalisation movement.

Spreading fear by bombings, murder and assault is not 'pro-life'. Dr Tiller was murdered outside his church.

Here's the kind of guy who scares the crap out of me.

"Let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good.... If a Christian voted for Clinton, he sinned against God. It's that simple.... Our goal is a Christian Nation... we have a biblical duty, we are called by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want Pluralism. We want theocracy. Theocracy means God rules. I've got a hot flash. God rules."

[Randall Terry, Head of Operation Rescue, from The News Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana, Aug 15, 1993]

"When I, or people like me, are running the country, you'd better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we will execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed... If we're going to have true reformation in America, it is because men once again, if I may use a worn out expression, have righteous testoserone flowing through their veins. They are not afraid of contempt for their contemporaries. They are not even here to get along. They are here to take over... Somebody like Susan Smith should be dead. She should be dead now. Some people will go, "Well how do you know God doesn't have a wonderful plan for her life?" He does, it's listed in the Bible. His plan for her is that she should be dead."

[Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue, at the Aug 8, 1995 U.S. Taxpayers Alliance Banquet in Washington DC, talking about doctors who perform abortions and volunteer escorts]

Randall Terry is a nutcase.

Funny, you have nothing like this to say about "people yelling at them, foaming at the mouth with rage, telling them they are murderers and they shall rot in a fiery hell. I doubt those people could ever understand how horrible they really are themselves. " when it is done by muslim extremists. In fact you want to point out all those "moderate" muslims. Don't you think that there are far more "moderate" Pro-lifers (or your term anti-abortionist)"? Yet, there is only mention of those that "you" want to call fanatics. Again, your criticism is soooo selective.

This is not the thread on Islam. Stick to the topic.

 

[Sky Dancer]

“If the anti-abortion movement took a tenth of the energy they put into noisy theatrics and devoted it to improving the lives of children who have been born into lives of poverty, violence, and neglect, they could make a world shine.”

Michael J. Tucker

If the money spent on abortions went to feed the "children", there would be no starving children in the USA. See how those wacky statements work.

I'm not in favor of back alley procedures, women sticking themselves with knitting needles and bleeding to death, are you?

That's what will happen if abortion is re-criminalized.

"Before Roe, desperate women used a number of dangerous means to terminate pregnancies. Some sought abortions from back-alley abortionists, with usually humiliating and sometimes deadly results.

Other women tried to induce abortions with homemade means--such as a bleach douche, or inserting sharp instruments into her cervix. This is why the now almost forgotten image of the wire coat hanger became the symbol of the abortion rights movement.

"In Chicago, at Cook Country Hospital, there were about 5,000 women a year coming in with injuries bleeding resulting to illegal abortions, mostly self-induced abortions," Leslie Reagan, the author of When Abortion Was a Crime, said in an interview. "They had an entire ward dedicated to taking care of people in that situation. Those wards pretty much closed up around the country once abortion was legalized."

In an eight-year period at the Chicago Lying-In clinic, 67 percent of the women who had therapeutic abortions were sterilized at the same time, according to Reagan's When Abortion Was a Crime.
Gynecologists around the country would only perform abortions as part of a "package deal"--an abortion and sterilization. But this didn't apply to all patients--not those better off, and mainly white.
http://www.counterpunch.org/schulte01202006.html

 

[AllieBaba]

Here are these poor women, going to have a abortion, knowing damn well what they are doing and probably none too happy about it. They get out of the car and here are these people yelling at them, foaming at the mouth with rage, telling them they are murderers and they shall rot in a fiery hell. I doubt those people could ever understand how horrible they really are themselves.

I am against abortion, but I don't identify with this rabid, re-criminalisation movement.

Spreading fear by bombings, murder and assault is not 'pro-life'. Dr Tiller was murdered outside his church.

Here's the kind of guy who scares the crap out of me.

"Let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good.... If a Christian voted for Clinton, he sinned against God. It's that simple.... Our goal is a Christian Nation... we have a biblical duty, we are called by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want Pluralism. We want theocracy. Theocracy means God rules. I've got a hot flash. God rules."

[Randall Terry, Head of Operation Rescue, from The News Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana, Aug 15, 1993]

"When I, or people like me, are running the country, you'd better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we will execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed... If we're going to have true reformation in America, it is because men once again, if I may use a worn out expression, have righteous testoserone flowing through their veins. They are not afraid of contempt for their contemporaries. They are not even here to get along. They are here to take over... Somebody like Susan Smith should be dead. She should be dead now. Some people will go, "Well how do you know God doesn't have a wonderful plan for her life?" He does, it's listed in the Bible. His plan for her is that she should be dead."

[Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue, at the Aug 8, 1995 U.S. Taxpayers Alliance Banquet in Washington DC, talking about doctors who perform abortions and volunteer escorts]

Randall Terry is a nutcase.

Funny, you have nothing like this to say about "people yelling at them, foaming at the mouth with rage, telling them they are murderers and they shall rot in a fiery hell. I doubt those people could ever understand how horrible they really are themselves. " when it is done by muslim extremists. In fact you want to point out all those "moderate" muslims. Don't you think that there are far more "moderate" Pro-lifers (or your term anti-abortionist)"? Yet, there is only mention of those that "you" want to call fanatics. Again, your criticism is soooo selective.

This is not the thread on Islam. Stick to the topic.

Fuck off, Sky. You followed me around for days dragging quotes from different threads with you.

Lying hypocritical nutbag.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Estimates of the number of illegal abortions in the 1950s and 1960s ranged from 200,000 to 1.2 million per year. One analysis, extrapolating from data from North Carolina, concluded that an estimated 829,000 illegal or self-induced abortions occurred in 1967.

One stark indication of the prevalence of illegal abortion was the death toll. In 1930, abortion was listed as the official cause of death for almost 2,700 women—nearly one-fifth (18%) of maternal deaths recorded in that year. The death toll had declined to just under 1,700 by 1940, and to just over 300 by 1950 (most likely because of the introduction of antibiotics in the 1940s, which permitted more effective treatment of the infections that frequently developed after illegal abortion). By 1965, the number of deaths due to illegal abortion had fallen to just under 200, but illegal abortion still accounted for 17% of all deaths attributed to pregnancy and childbirth that year. And these are just the number that were officially reported; the actual number was likely much higher.

Poor women and their families were disproportionately impacted. A study of low-income women in New York City in the 1960s found that almost one in 10 (8%) had ever attempted to terminate a pregnancy by illegal abortion; almost four in 10 (38%) said that a friend, relative or acquaintance had attempted to obtain an abortion. Of the low-income women in that study who said they had had an abortion, eight in 10 (77%) said that they had attempted a self-induced procedure, with only 2% saying that a physician had been involved in any way.

In 1962 alone, nearly 1,600 women were admitted to Harlem Hospital Center in New York City for incomplete abortions, which was one abortion-related hospital admission for every 42 deliveries at that hospital that year. In 1968, the University of Southern California Los Angeles County Medical Center, another large public facility serving primarily indigent patients, admitted 701 women with septic abortions, one admission for every 14 deliveries.



Lessons from Before Roe: Will Past be Prologue?

 

[R.D.]

I know no one that is "pro abortion".
That term is right wing spin.

You obviously very little attention to people.

Telll me something, what term would you use to describe a person that claims to be pro choice and then denigrates a person who chooses not to have an abortion? Isn't choosing to give birth a choice? Or is it possible that some of those pro choice people are actually pro abortion.

First of all, show me that person. Where are they?
Anyone that denigrates anyone for a private family decision does not have my respect.
Yes.
I don't know any.
How many denigrate women that have an abortion? Are you against that or are you on the sidelines with pictures of dead babies, yelling at them while they attempt to enter a doctor's office?

You kid yourself.

Every woman who has had an abortion without regret is pro abortion Every woman who has had more than one embraces abortion.

Your splitting hairs is just bogus and unworthy of any respect So what they are being shown for the killers they are? If you're fine with killing the unborn you should grow a thicker skin and man up about how you look in the eyes of those who aren't.