POLL: The GOP and "Socialism"

[Mac1958]

Oy. Okay.

Whether you want to admit it or not, you illustrated my point for me. So, thanks for that.
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No, I didn't. You're playing a game. Whenever anyone isn't on board with more socialism, you accuse them of binary thinking rather than address their argument. It's a cop out. Instead of just recognizing that there are good reasons to be wary of socializing more of our society under government, you simply reject them outright and label their objections "binary" or whatever.

Honestly, this tactic must be distributed somewhere in the progressive talking points. I see it in several forms. Usually, it's when someone is arguing for liberty in the face of more government control. They're accused of being anarchists simply because they don't like the latest plan to inject more socialism into the mix. Who's really engaging in binary thinking, Mac?

I'm not exactly sure of what has you so upset.

I don't like rhetorical techniques that are just distractions. It's perfectly valid for someone to say (in a thread discussing some new policy proposal, for example): "That's socialism. If we keep pushing for more of that, we'll end up like Venezuela". But instead of addressing their concerns, instead of explaining why socialism is justified in this case, instead of expressing some respect for the concept of limited government, you accuse them of binary thinking. Suddenly no one is discussing the topic, we're quibbling about whether 100% liberty is possible. No one was demanding 100% liberty in the first place, but the strawman has entered the room and the argument dissolves.

I find it frustrating when the term "socialism" is thrown around (and I don't care which side does it), because the way it's presented is so vague and squishy. Vague and squishy isn't helpful in a complicated conversation. I constantly argue here, to little or no avail, that government size, depth, influence and cost usually run along a continuum. Some people want MORE of it, some people want LESS.

So, it was nice to see your "more socialism or less socialism" post. It was refreshing, and it was nice to to see that someone (seemingly) agrees with me that this stuff is a matter of degree. Nowhere have I argued for more or less, I was just making a general comment.

So again, thanks for what I thought was a reasonable and thoughtful comment, and I'll be sure not to thank you for such comments in the future.

I'm sorry to have disappointed you. But I don't agree with your central premise. I don't think people reject socialism because they're stupid and scared. I think they understand it well enough, and they reject it because they don't want government lording over them at every turn.

I don't even really think of things in terms of socialism vs capitalism. The continuum I see is more state control over society or less. Socialism is more state control over society and, in my view, we need a damned good reason if we're going to grant government that control.

My central premise is that "people reject socialism because they're stupid and scared"?

Okay. News to me. But that does happen a lot here.

Thanks.
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It's implied, yes. You're free to deny it, of course. It's the refrain of progressives and Democrats whenever people don't cheer for their plans - "They just don't get it!"

I made a clear, reasonable point. It appeared to me, based on your words, that we agree that there can be "more socialism" and "less socialism". Was I wrong? Were you kidding, maybe?

You chose to make assumptions and inferences that were in your mind only, and ran wild with them. I guess I'm used to that here.
.

 

[JoeB131]

Binary? Fucking moron.

Who could make your choices for you, Joe? You? Or government with guns? Give me an example of someone else who can make your choices

Before I started my own business, I had big corporations that had no accountability making decisions for me, whether I liked it or not.

A lot worse than a government I can VOTE OUT OF OFFICE.

 

[JoeB131]

Answer the basic question though. Either you make your own choices or government does in some form. Name another option

A big corporation decides it doesn't want to pay your medical expenses after you've paid insurance for six years.

Which has totally happened.

 

[kaz]

Binary? Fucking moron.

Who could make your choices for you, Joe? You? Or government with guns? Give me an example of someone else who can make your choices

Before I started my own business, I had big corporations that had no accountability making decisions for me, whether I liked it or not.

A lot worse than a government I can VOTE OUT OF OFFICE.

Corporations can't make you do anything, dumb ass.

And you write resumes, that isn't starting a business, Joe. There's only you. You don't have a corporation, you don't pay business taxes. You just earn $20K a year getting paid to write resumes

 

[kaz]

Answer the basic question though. Either you make your own choices or government does in some form. Name another option

A big corporation decides it doesn't want to pay your medical expenses after you've paid insurance for six years.

Which has totally happened.

So a company is making your decisions for you by deciding they don't want to pay your bills for you? Wow, you are a dependency whore.

No, your employer made their own choice, not yours, Joe. They decided you aren't a good enough employee to be worth paying.

I fired you too, they are right. You're a marginal employee with a bad attitude. You suck the life out of everyone around you. Life is too short to waste it being around people like you, even at work

 

[JoeB131]

Corporations can't make you do anything, dumb ass.

And you write resumes, that isn't starting a business, Joe. There's only you. You don't have a corporation, you don't pay business taxes. You just earn $20K a year getting paid to write resumes

I do have a corporation, I am paying taxes, and I make 80K a year doing it. I also have to pay self-employment taxes on my Social Security and Medicare.

But do go on... how many business failures have you had?

But the point I was making was that I paid Cigna $10,000 a year directly or through my employer to get health coverage... and when my Doctor said, "He really needs this operation", Cigna claimed it was elective and fought me every step of the way, then "encouraged" my employer to downsize me.

 

[JoeB131]

So a company is making your decisions for you by deciding they don't want to pay your bills for you? Wow, you are a dependency whore.

Um, yeah, after I paid them a shitload of money to cover that eventuality... I kind of expected that.

Or do you just hand people money for services and hope they feel like doing the things you want them to.

No,your employer made their own choice, not yours, Joe. They decided you aren't a good enough employee to be worth paying you

Quite the contrary, I made lots of money for these idiots, but then Cigna told them to get rid of anyone who had medical issues...

 

[kaz]

Corporations can't make you do anything, dumb ass.

And you write resumes, that isn't starting a business, Joe. There's only you. You don't have a corporation, you don't pay business taxes. You just earn $20K a year getting paid to write resumes

I do have a corporation, I am paying taxes, and I make 80K a year doing it. I also have to pay self-employment taxes on my Social Security and Medicare.

But do go on... how many business failures have you had?

But the point I was making was that I paid Cigna $10,000 a year directly or through my employer to get health coverage... and when my Doctor said, "He really needs this operation", Cigna claimed it was elective and fought me every step of the way, then "encouraged" my employer to downsize me.

Wait until you get your socialist medical coverage, then they won't pay anything for anything.

Thanks for asking. I've had five businesses. I combined three of them, which left three. I have sold those now. Two have been paid off buy the buyers. But the last and biggest will continue to provide me with monthly checks for several more years. That while I'm back getting a paycheck in management consulting working for one of the largest financial institutions in the world. You can Google what a senior management consultant gets paid. Let me have more failed businesses, Joe.

That while you got fired for sucking.

FYI, you don't need a corporation to pay Social Security and Medicare, you can pay it on your regular tax form. You need a corporation for liability or if you have employees. But you don't need a corporation to pay social security and medicare taxes on self employment income. You just admitted again that you're lying.

And the doctor saying you "need" an operation doesn't mean it's covered under your policy. You should have bought a better policy. Leftists always buy the cheapest shit policy then say you have insurance and think everything in the world is covered.

 

[kaz]

So a company is making your decisions for you by deciding they don't want to pay your bills for you? Wow, you are a dependency whore.

Um, yeah, after I paid them a shitload of money to cover that eventuality... I kind of expected that.

Or do you just hand people money for services and hope they feel like doing the things you want them to.

No,your employer made their own choice, not yours, Joe. They decided you aren't a good enough employee to be worth paying you

Quite the contrary, I made lots of money for these idiots, but then Cigna told them to get rid of anyone who had medical issues...

Dude, for orders, you called three box companies and picked the lowest quote. That isn't making your company lots of money.

And having actually owned real businesses, medical companies don't call businesses and tell them to fire people. They would get sued.

Your employer fired you just like I did. If they told you that, they were trying to stop you from spraying the office with bullets because you're a psycho.

Socialism isn't going to pay for your nose job either. It's just not going to pay for anyone's operations

 

[JoeB131]

Wait until you get your socialist medical coverage, then they won't pay anything for anything.

Funny, know a lot of people on Medicare, they do just fine. Know a lot of Canadians, their system works fine for them.

Thanks for asking. I've had five businesses.

Wow... that's an awful lot of fail. Apparently you fail a lot, but then again, I dealt with little bottom feeders like you a lot as a buyer.. and it was tiresome.

FYI, you don't need a corporation to pay Social Security and Medicare, you can pay it on your regular tax form. You need a corporation for liability or if you have employees. But you don't need a corporation to pay social security and medicare taxes on self employment income. You just admitted again that you're lying.

Yes, early on I did pay SS and Medicare on Schedule C. Then I found it was easier to do it as a corporation. I also got other tax advantages doing it that way.

And the doctor saying you "need" an operation doesn't mean it's covered under your policy. You should have bought a better policy. Leftists always buy the cheapest shit policy then say you have insurance and think everything in the world is covered.

Actually, I bought the best policy they offered at the time... which they discontinued after I had my operation and tried to shove us onto an HMO.

Here's the thing.. Before the ACA was passed, no matter where I worked, we had that wonderful annual meeting where the HR people would come out and tell us, "This year, your insurance will cost you more and cover less". I remember one time the fat unpleasant HR Cow came out and told us how happy she was she didn't have to use our insurance for her recent pregnancy.

Then the ACA passed, and we stopped having those meetings... I wonder why.

 

[JoeB131]

Dude, for orders, you called three box companies and picked the lowest quote. That isn't making your company lots of money.

First, as I explained to you (but you have a short attention span), only part of my career was spent purchasing in the Corrugated industry. Second, I did a lot more than pick the lowest quote, I negotiated pricing structures, created blanket orders, and in one case outsourced a process that involved three vendors into a single vendor, improving quality and reducing pricing and lead times.

And having actually owned real businesses, medical companies don't call businesses and tell them to fire people. They would get sued.

I'm sure you believe that... Maybe you need to look up Nataline Sarkisyan and find out what a wonderful company Cigna is.

Your employer fired you just like I did. If they told you that, they were trying to stop you from spraying the office with bullets because you're a psycho.

Guy, I still have a pretty good friendship with most of the people I worked with at that company. In fact, they even helped me get the job at a later company I worked at because they liked working with me.

And I'd never work for a little bottom feeder like you... I actually worked for real companies..

 

[JakeStarkey]

It does not scare the Millennials and the young Genxrs, and they are the great majority of the voters.

How long before the Right realizes the term "socialism" no longer scares people?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Medicare and Medicaid and SS and VA work well.

There is always room for improvement. Think of the 30,000 plus patients who die of preventable infection in private hospitals.

 

[kaz]

Wait until you get your socialist medical coverage, then they won't pay anything for anything.

Funny, know a lot of people on Medicare, they do just fine. Know a lot of Canadians, their system works fine for them.

Thanks for asking. I've had five businesses.

Wow... that's an awful lot of fail. Apparently you fail a lot, but then again, I dealt with little bottom feeders like you a lot as a buyer.. and it was tiresome.

FYI, you don't need a corporation to pay Social Security and Medicare, you can pay it on your regular tax form. You need a corporation for liability or if you have employees. But you don't need a corporation to pay social security and medicare taxes on self employment income. You just admitted again that you're lying.

Yes, early on I did pay SS and Medicare on Schedule C. Then I found it was easier to do it as a corporation. I also got other tax advantages doing it that way.

And the doctor saying you "need" an operation doesn't mean it's covered under your policy. You should have bought a better policy. Leftists always buy the cheapest shit policy then say you have insurance and think everything in the world is covered.

Actually, I bought the best policy they offered at the time... which they discontinued after I had my operation and tried to shove us onto an HMO.

Here's the thing.. Before the ACA was passed, no matter where I worked, we had that wonderful annual meeting where the HR people would come out and tell us, "This year, your insurance will cost you more and cover less". I remember one time the fat unpleasant HR Cow came out and told us how happy she was she didn't have to use our insurance for her recent pregnancy.

Then the ACA passed, and we stopped having those meetings... I wonder why.

That's a variation of what government tells us now with the socialist Obamacare plan, only they say this year we still don't pay anything and it costs more.

And with business taxes, Joe, you continually boast to people who know more than you do about what you're talking about.

1) You claim it's easier to set up and maintain a corporation and pay an accountant to create corporate taxes then it is to just buy Turbo Tax and declare social security and medicare on your regular tax form? Again you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

2) Be specific what these other tax advantages you get by having a corporation, what tax advantages do you make use of?

 

[kaz]

Dude, for orders, you called three box companies and picked the lowest quote. That isn't making your company lots of money.

First, as I explained to you (but you have a short attention span), only part of my career was spent purchasing in the Corrugated industry. Second, I did a lot more than pick the lowest quote, I negotiated pricing structures, created blanket orders, and in one case outsourced a process that involved three vendors into a single vendor, improving quality and reducing pricing and lead times.

You said you made money for your company. Even if true, those are cost reductions, not revenue creation. Remember how you didn't know the difference between price and cost? Lying that you work in purchasing. Now I've seen everything

[

And having actually owned real businesses, medical companies don't call businesses and tell them to fire people. They would get sued.

I'm sure you believe that... Maybe you need to look up Nataline Sarkisyan and find out what a wonderful company Cigna is.

In any socialist country, she would be dead too

Nowhere did Cigna order an employer to drop her from coverage, Joe. I never said insurance companies don't do anything wrong. I said you're full of shit they told your employer to fire certain people

[

Your employer fired you just like I did. If they told you that, they were trying to stop you from spraying the office with bullets because you're a psycho.

Guy, I still have a pretty good friendship with most of the people I worked with at that company. In fact, they even helped me get the job at a later company I worked at because they liked working with me.

And I'd never work for a little bottom feeder like you... I actually worked for real companies..

Sure, Joe. You go to work and have a good attitude and only have a bad attitude when you come home. No one does that. Sometimes the reverse happens for people who hate their jobs. But no one has a good attitude at work and a bad one the rest of the time

 

[kaz]

Thanks for asking. I've had five businesses.

Wow... that's an awful lot of fail. Apparently you fail a lot, but then again, I dealt with little bottom feeders like you a lot as a buyer.. and it was tiresome.

I don't know what's funnier. That you don't know how people with actual money make it (starting a bunch of businesses is a big one), or that you tell me I don't make any money and my businesses keep failing, yet somehow I kept starting more businesses. LOL. You don't even think through your own stupid shit.

What kind of corporation do you have? Is it a "C" corp?

Do you generate a paycheck for yourself from your company?

 

[JoeB131]

That's a variation of what government tells us now with the socialist Obamacare plan, only they say this year we still don't pay anything and it costs more.

And with business taxes, Joe, you continually boast to people who know more than you do about what you're talking about.

I know what I do works fine for me... that's all that counts...

Point was, after ACA passed, they stopped finding ways to cheat us.

don't know what's funnier. That you don't know how people with actual money make it

I'm sure you are very proud you made a small profit cheating your employees out of health care, but you are still a bottom feeder. No wonder socialism scares you... you'd have no place in it.

In any socialist country, she would be dead too

Um, no, actually, any single payer country, she'd have gotten her transplant...

You said you made money for your company. Even if true, those are cost reductions, not revenue creation. Remember how you didn't know the difference between price and cost? Lying that you work in purchasing. Now I've seen everything

Uh, guy, cost reductions are making money for the company... I'm sorry you don't get that.

But then again, you worked for the kind of bottom feeder business that employs three people who'd all rather be somewhere else. They were a joy to deal with as a buyer.

 

[JoeB131]

Nowhere did Cigna order an employer to drop her from coverage, Joe. I never said insurance companies don't do anything wrong. I said you're full of shit they told your employer to fire certain people

You missed the point, buddy. Cigna argued in court that her father had no standing, as their contract was with his employer, not him.

And, yeah, the first bunch of downsizing at this company I worked for was anyone who had a major medical issue in the previous year.

 

[JoeB131]

Sure, Joe. You go to work and have a good attitude and only have a bad attitude when you come home. No one does that. Sometimes the reverse happens for people who hate their jobs. But no one has a good attitude at work and a bad one the rest of the time

My attitude is wonderful all the time.

That I see you as a piece of shit.. well, fuck Jesus and Ghandi would call you a piece of shit.

 

[kaz]

In any socialist country, she would be dead too

Um, no, actually, any single payer country, she'd have gotten her transplant...

That's just a lie, Joe. Socialist countries don't have the money to pay for expensive procedures. People die in Canada and the UK all the time on wait lists. Do you ever read?

You said you made money for your company. Even if true, those are cost reductions, not revenue creation. Remember how you didn't know the difference between price and cost? Lying that you work in purchasing. Now I've seen everything

Uh, guy, cost reductions are making money for the company... I'm sorry you don't get that.

But then again, you worked for the kind of bottom feeder business that employs three people who'd all rather be somewhere else. They were a joy to deal with as a buyer.

Again, you don't know basic business terminology, Joe. Sure, it's true that reducing costs increases profit, but no one refers to cutting a cost as making profits