Patriotic Americans vs. Israel

[toastman]

We suffered on 9/11 because of Israel...

Did you, why what did Israel do?

People in the Mideast are angry mostly because the U.S. supports the apartheid state of Israel.

So because Arabs hate Israel, they are hostile towards America, and you are willing to succumb to them? If they don't like America because of Israel, too fuckin bad for them. America will never succumb to their pressure from Arab violence.

If Israel is an Apartheid state, what are the Apartheid laws in Israel proper?

 

[Thunderbird]

Since when have you been an Israeli spokesperson to threaten anyone with alleged nuclear weapons.

There are some crazy war-mongers in Israel.

 

[montelatici]

We suffered on 9/11 because of Israel...

Did you, why what did Israel do?

People in the Mideast are angry mostly because the U.S. supports the apartheid state of Israel.

What kind of documentation do you have that proves Israel is an apartheid state other than the accusations of the unwashed?

What documentation do you need, when the facts on the ground bear it out?

The condition of the Palestinian people is no different than that of blacks in South Africa during Apartheid. Like black South Africans, Palestinians are not allowed to move freely on their own land. Like black South Africans, Palestinians must carry ‘passbooks’ to identify themselves to their military occupiers. Like black South Africans, Palestinians are subjected to the cantonization and theft of their ancestral homeland. Like black South Africans, Palestinians cannot vote for the people controlling their lives, and like black South Africans, Palestinians are discriminated against purely on the basis of their ethnicity.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

American taxpayers are forced to pay billions of dollars to Israel. America has suffered through oil embargoes because of Israel. America has fought wars for Israel. And what has Israel done for the U.S.? In gratitude the Israelis have conducted damaging spy operations against the U.S. and sold advanced weapons to our most dangerous adversaries. American interests are not served by propping up apartheid Israel. Our politicians are bribed to betray our country and put Israel first. American subservience to Israel creates hatred for America throughout the Muslim world, terrorism, and aversion to American ideals and reform.

I don't believe any of that happy horseshit.

Because you are an Israel Firster.

So using your logic, you are a Palestinian firster

No such thing.

Israel Firster: "A person that places the ambitions,policies and well-being of the right-wing Israeli government over that of their country of residence, usually America. Israel is the primary concern and will always be considered before anything else. If a policy is good for Israel and bad for America it will receive unconditional support without concern for America,despite America being the country of residence *hence Israel FIRST."- Urban Dictionary Israel-firster

I may be speaking out of turn but I don't think there's one "pro-Palestinian" poster here that would put Palestine's interests before that of their own country. I, for one, support the Palestinians because they are an innocent people that have been brutally colonised and are being oppressed as I write by European Zionists in pursuit of a mythic fable. Once they are a free people enjoying dignity and full human rights, I'll move on to another worthy cause. I won't, however, put my country in danger to further Palestinian goals. That's the difference.

Here's an interesting article on the subject:

Why the Term Israel First Matters MJ Rosenberg

When you say mythic fable, I assume you're talking about Gd and the Bible. What about:
1) Safe haven for the Jews?
2) History and archaeology?

I read the article. I also think America should not go to war with Iran, just to protect Israel. But I also think that the Liberty case in 1967 was friendly fire due to the war going on there. So does that make me an Israeli-firster or not? Or maybe a free-thinking person who decides different issues based on logic and reason.

 

[montelatici]

You just ignore the findings of the only independent report, the Moorer (Admiral Moorer) Commission Report.

"We, the undersigned, having undertaken an independent investigation of Israel's attack on USS Liberty, including eyewitness testimony from surviving crewmembers, a review of naval and other official records, an examination of official statements by the Israeli and American governments, a study of the conclusions of all previous official inquiries, and a consideration of important new evidence and recent statements from individuals having direct knowledge of the attack or the cover up, hereby find the following: **

1. That on June 8, 1967, after eight hours of aerial surveillance, Israel launched a two-hour air and naval attack against USS Liberty, the world's most sophisticated intelligence ship, inflicting 34 dead and 173 wounded American servicemen (a casualty rate of seventy percent, in a crew of 294);

2. That the Israeli air attack lasted approximately 25 minutes, during which time unmarked Israeli aircraft dropped napalm canisters on USS Liberty's bridge, and fired 30mm cannons and rockets into our ship, causing 821 holes, more than 100 of which were rocket-size; survivors estimate 30 or more sorties were flown over the ship by a minimum of 12 attacking Israeli planes which were jamming all five American emergency radio channels;

3. That the torpedo boat attack involved not only the firing of torpedoes, but the machine-gunning of Liberty's firefighters and stretcher-bearers as they struggled to save their ship and crew; the Israeli torpedo boats later returned to machine-gun at close range three of the Liberty's life rafts that had been lowered into the water by survivors to rescue the most seriously wounded;

4. That there is compelling evidence that Israel's attack was a deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her entire crew; evidence of such intent is supported by statements from Secretary of State Dean Rusk, Undersecretary of State George Ball, former CIA director Richard Helms, former NSA directors Lieutenant General William Odom, USA (Ret.), Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, USN (Ret.), and Marshal Carter; former NSA deputy directors Oliver Kirby and Major General John Morrison, USAF (Ret.); and former Ambassador Dwight Porter, U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon in 1967;

5. That in attacking USS Liberty, Israel committed acts of murder against American servicemen and an act of war against the United States;

6. That fearing conflict with Israel, the White House deliberately prevented the U.S. Navy from coming to the defense of USS Liberty by recalling Sixth Fleet military rescue support while the ship was under attack; evidence of the recall of rescue aircraft is supported by statements of Captain Joe Tully, Commanding Officer of the aircraft carrier USS Saratoga, and Rear Admiral Lawrence Geis, the Sixth Fleet carrier division commander, at the time of the attack; never before in American naval history has a rescue mission been cancelled when an American ship was under attack;

7. That although Liberty was saved from almost certain destruction through the heroic efforts of the ship's Captain, William L. McGonagle (MOH), and his brave crew, surviving crewmembers were later threatened with "court-martial, imprisonment or worse" if they exposed the truth; and were abandoned by their own government;

8. That due to the influence of Israel's powerful supporters in the United States, the White House deliberately covered up the facts of this attack from the American people;

9. That due to continuing pressure by the pro-Israel lobby in the United States, this attack remains the only serious naval incident that has never been thoroughly investigated by Congress; to this day, no surviving crewmember has been permitted to officially and publicly testify about the attack;

10. That there has been an official cover-up without precedent in American naval history; the existence of such a cover-up is now supported by statements of Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN (Ret.), former Judge Advocate General of the Navy; and Captain Ward Boston, USN, (Ret.), the chief counsel to the Navy's 1967 Court of Inquiry of Liberty attack;

11. That the truth about Israel's attack and subsequent White House cover-up continues to be officially concealed from the American people to the present day and is a national disgrace;

12. That a danger to our national security exists whenever our elected officials are willing to subordinate American interests to those of any foreign nation, and specifically are unwilling to challenge Israel's interests when they conflict with American interests; this policy, evidenced by the failure to defend USS Liberty and the subsequent official cover-up of the Israeli attack, endangers the safety of Americans and the security of the United States.

 

[toastman]

Since when have you been an Israeli spokesperson to threaten anyone with alleged nuclear weapons.

There are some crazy war-mongers in Israel.

It's the Palestinians who are the war mongers.

 

[Thunderbird]

So because Arabs hate Israel, they are hostile towards America, and you are willing to succumb to them? /if they don't like America because of Israel, yo

If the Israelis were in the right you might have a point. However, the Israelis have ethnically cleansed the Palestinians from their homes. The Israelis discriminate against the Palestinians. The Israelis bomb Palestinian civilians.

 

[montelatici]

We suffered on 9/11 because of Israel...

Did you, why what did Israel do?

People in the Mideast are angry mostly because the U.S. supports the apartheid state of Israel.

So because Arabs hate Israel, they are hostile towards America, and you are willing to succumb to them? If they don't like America because of Israel, too fuckin bad for them. America will never succumb to their pressure from Arab violence.

If Israel is an Apartheid state, what are the Apartheid laws in Israel proper?

It's a long list, but just the basic "Law of Return" is a discriminatory and Apartheid law as it separates Jews from the non-Jews.

 

[Thunderbird]

Where do you get your information from Nazi's-r-us

Modern day Nazis are Israeli war-mongers.

Check out this article: Holocaust survivors condemn Israel for Gaza massacre call for boycott - Diplomacy and Defense - - Haaretz Daily Newspaper Israel News

 

[montelatici]

Since when have you been an Israeli spokesperson to threaten anyone with alleged nuclear weapons.

There are some crazy war-mongers in Israel.

It's the Palestinians who are the war mongers.

I ask you, how can the people that were colonized and evicted from their land by people from another continent be the war mongers. Can't you see what crazy logic that is? It's like saying the Indians were the war mongers in the Americas.

 

[Thunderbird]

When has America fought any way for Israel ?

The second Gulf War in particular was fought for Israel.

John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt The Israel Lobby the Israel Lobby LRB 23 March 2006

Quote: Pressure from Israel and the Lobby was not the only factor behind the decision to attack Iraq in March 2003, but it was critical. Some Americans believe that this was a war for oil, but there is hardly any direct evidence to support this claim. Instead, the war was motivated in good part by a desire to make Israel more secure. According to Philip Zelikow, a former member of the president’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, the executive director of the 9/11 Commission, and now a counsellor to Condoleezza Rice, the ‘real threat’ from Iraq was not a threat to the United States. The ‘unstated threat’ was the ‘threat against Israel’, Zelikow told an audience at the University of Virginia in September 2002. ‘The American government,’ he added, ‘doesn’t want to lean too hard on it rhetorically, because it is not a popular sell.’

On 16 August 2002, 11 days before Dick Cheney kicked off the campaign for war with a hardline speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the Washington Post reported that ‘Israel is urging US officials not to delay a military strike against Iraq’s Saddam Hussein.’ By this point, according to Sharon, strategic co-ordination between Israel and the US had reached ‘unprecedented dimensions’, and Israeli intelligence officials had given Washington a variety of alarming reports about Iraq’s WMD programmes. As one retired Israeli general later put it, ‘Israeli intelligence was a full partner to the picture presented by American and British intelligence regarding Iraq’s non-conventional capabilities.’

Israeli leaders were deeply distressed when Bush decided to seek Security Council authorisation for war, and even more worried when Saddam agreed to let UN inspectors back in. ‘The campaign against Saddam Hussein is a must,’ Shimon Peres told reporters in September 2002. ‘Inspections and inspectors are good for decent people, but dishonest people can overcome easily inspections and inspectors.’

At the same time, Ehud Barak wrote a New York Times op-ed warning that ‘the greatest risk now lies in inaction.’ His predecessor as prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, published a similar piece in the Wall Street Journal, entitled: ‘The Case for Toppling Saddam’. ‘Today nothing less than dismantling his regime will do,’ he declared. ‘I believe I speak for the overwhelming majority of Israelis in supporting a pre-emptive strike against Saddam’s regime.’ Or as Ha’aretz reported in February 2003, ‘the military and political leadership yearns for war in Iraq.’

As Netanyahu suggested, however, the desire for war was not confined to Israel’s leaders. Apart from Kuwait, which Saddam invaded in 1990, Israel was the only country in the world where both politicians and public favoured war. As the journalist Gideon Levy observed at the time, ‘Israel is the only country in the West whose leaders support the war unreservedly and where no alternative opinion is voiced.’ In fact, Israelis were so gung-ho that their allies in America told them to damp down their rhetoric, or it would look as if the war would be fought on Israel’s behalf.

Within the US, the main driving force behind the war was a small band of neo-conservatives, many with ties to Likud. But leaders of the Lobby’s major organisations lent their voices to the campaign. ‘As President Bush attempted to sell the … war in Iraq,’ the Forward reported, ‘America’s most important Jewish organisations rallied as one to his defence. In statement after statement community leaders stressed the need to rid the world of Saddam Hussein and his weapons of mass destruction.’ The editorial goes on to say that ‘concern for Israel’s safety rightfully factored into the deliberations of the main Jewish groups.’

 

[toastman]

When has America fought any way for Israel ?

The second Gulf War in particular was fought for Israel.

John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt The Israel Lobby the Israel Lobby LRB 23 March 2006

Quote: Pressure from Israel and the Lobby was not the only factor behind the decision to attack Iraq in March 2003, but it was critical. Some Americans believe that this was a war for oil, but there is hardly any direct evidence to support this claim. Instead, the war was motivated in good part by a desire to make Israel more secure. According to Philip Zelikow, a former member of the president’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, the executive director of the 9/11 Commission, and now a counsellor to Condoleezza Rice, the ‘real threat’ from Iraq was not a threat to the United States. The ‘unstated threat’ was the ‘threat against Israel’, Zelikow told an audience at the University of Virginia in September 2002. ‘The American government,’ he added, ‘doesn’t want to lean too hard on it rhetorically, because it is not a popular sell.’

On 16 August 2002, 11 days before Dick Cheney kicked off the campaign for war with a hardline speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the Washington Post reported that ‘Israel is urging US officials not to delay a military strike against Iraq’s Saddam Hussein.’ By this point, according to Sharon, strategic co-ordination between Israel and the US had reached ‘unprecedented dimensions’, and Israeli intelligence officials had given Washington a variety of alarming reports about Iraq’s WMD programmes. As one retired Israeli general later put it, ‘Israeli intelligence was a full partner to the picture presented by American and British intelligence regarding Iraq’s non-conventional capabilities.’

Israeli leaders were deeply distressed when Bush decided to seek Security Council authorisation for war, and even more worried when Saddam agreed to let UN inspectors back in. ‘The campaign against Saddam Hussein is a must,’ Shimon Peres told reporters in September 2002. ‘Inspections and inspectors are good for decent people, but dishonest people can overcome easily inspections and inspectors.’

At the same time, Ehud Barak wrote a New York Times op-ed warning that ‘the greatest risk now lies in inaction.’ His predecessor as prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, published a similar piece in the Wall Street Journal, entitled: ‘The Case for Toppling Saddam’. ‘Today nothing less than dismantling his regime will do,’ he declared. ‘I believe I speak for the overwhelming majority of Israelis in supporting a pre-emptive strike against Saddam’s regime.’ Or as Ha’aretz reported in February 2003, ‘the military and political leadership yearns for war in Iraq.’

As Netanyahu suggested, however, the desire for war was not confined to Israel’s leaders. Apart from Kuwait, which Saddam invaded in 1990, Israel was the only country in the world where both politicians and public favoured war. As the journalist Gideon Levy observed at the time, ‘Israel is the only country in the West whose leaders support the war unreservedly and where no alternative opinion is voiced.’ In fact, Israelis were so gung-ho that their allies in America told them to damp down their rhetoric, or it would look as if the war would be fought on Israel’s behalf.

Within the US, the main driving force behind the war was a small band of neo-conservatives, many with ties to Likud. But leaders of the Lobby’s major organisations lent their voices to the campaign. ‘As President Bush attempted to sell the … war in Iraq,’ the Forward reported, ‘America’s most important Jewish organisations rallied as one to his defence. In statement after statement community leaders stressed the need to rid the world of Saddam Hussein and his weapons of mass destruction.’ The editorial goes on to say that ‘concern for Israel’s safety rightfully factored into the deliberations of the main Jewish groups.’

No it wasn't, and nothing in your post proves that. The truth is that no one knows EXACTLY why America went to Iraq, but the decision was made by YOUR president to send AMERICAN troops to Iraq.

 

[Thunderbird]

1.What oil embargoes because of Israel?

1973 oil crisis

6.who are the politicians that have been convicted with bribery and who were paying them?

The worst crimes are perfectly legal.

Sheldon Adelson s billions shape US politics as many question his influence US news The Guardian

Don't be afraid to read the articles I linked to. I think I've found some worthwhile sources.

 

[toastman]

Since when have you been an Israeli spokesperson to threaten anyone with alleged nuclear weapons.

There are some crazy war-mongers in Israel.

It's the Palestinians who are the war mongers.

I ask you, how can the people that were colonized and evicted from their land by people from another continent be the war mongers. Can't you see what crazy logic that is? It's like saying the Indians were the war mongers in the Americas.

The people attacking Israel were not evicted from nowhere. They were born there. Hamas keeps attacking Israel, sparking larger operation. Without those rocket attacks, there would have been no Operation Cast Lead, no Pillar of Defence, etc....

It's really simple. Hamas keeps 'poking the bear', and despite warnings from Israel of a large scale attack, they continue to poke the bear, and then whine when Israel hits back hard.
Now, will ceasing rocket activity solve the conflict? Of course not, but it will certainly help Gazans. Don't launch rockets, it's that simple . It really is that simple.

 

[Thunderbird]

but the decision was made by YOUR president to send AMERICAN troops to Iraq.

Politicians are merely tools of the lobbyists who put them in office.

 

[toastman]

Where do you get your information from Nazi's-r-us

Modern day Nazis are Israeli war-mongers.

Check out this article: Holocaust survivors condemn Israel for Gaza massacre call for boycott - Diplomacy and Defense - - Haaretz Daily Newspaper Israel News

The modern day Nazis are the Palestinians. The Hamas charter is similar to Hitler's final solution, and Palestinians regularly call for genocide of Jews/Israelis. Just like the Nazis.
People like you expect Israel to do nothing when they are attacked.

 

[toastman]

but the decision was made by YOUR president to send AMERICAN troops to Iraq.

Politicians are merely tools of the lobbyists who put them in office.

This does not change what I said.

 

[Thunderbird]

It's really simple. Hamas keeps 'poking the bear', and despite warnings from Israel of a large scale attack, they continue to poke the bear, and then whine when Israel hits back hard.
Now, will ceasing rocket activity solve the conflict? Of course not, but it will certainly help Gazans. Don't launch rockets, it's that simple . It really is that simple.

If Israel stopped bombing and generally brutalizing the Palestinians maybe the Palestinians wouldn't have to fight back. The Israelis have been the primary aggressors in the conflict. It really is that simple.

If Americans Knew - What every American needs to know about Israel Palestine

WRMEA Middle East History Begin s Admission in 1982 That Israel Started Three of Its Wars

 

[Thunderbird]

Palestinians regularly call for genocide of Jews/Israelis. Just like the Nazis.

Wouldn't the Nazis be the ones discriminating against a minority and committing mass murder?

Palestinian and Israeli Children Killed

Israelis and Palestinians Killed since 9 29 2000

 

[toastman]

Palestinians regularly call for genocide of Jews/Israelis. Just like the Nazis.

Wouldn't the Nazis be the ones committing mass murder?

Palestinian and Israeli Children Killed

Israelis and Palestinians Killed since 9 29 2000

Murder? Civilians always get killed in conflict. Murder would be the intentional targeting of civilians. Why would Israel do that? It serves them no purpose and get them condemned from the world.
It is the Palestinians who intentionally target Israelis, and then cheer, celebrate and hand out candy upon hearing of the deaths of innocent civilians.