Partial Birth Abortion Ban

[Keebs]

Have you ever researched it?

I will find the information you are requesting.

 

[eric]

It would be nice if people would actually do a little research before spouting out a bunch of crap.

I think you are the one spouting your mouth, where did you get your information "a google search", I'm sure this makes you a medical expert. My opinions were formed based on conversations with approx 50 OB/GYNs that I have regular business/personal contact with.

Reread the thread and tell me where I am wrong?

 

[Creek]

Hey guys..

My thoughts on abortion is it's a very sad thing that has crept into the human race...I've talked with & know women who've had them....I believe it's a terrible option to even be presented to a woman...

There is such a thing as adoption.........It's easier to get an abortion,than to adopt a child..and with good reason...Because they screen & care about that child to make sure it'll get a good home,and up bringing........How can all of us with the same hearts & love given to each one of us....throw one in the garbage can..to kill it....It's terrible.....

The freedom of choice is what it's called...and at times can mean very terrible,and ugly things.......I'm against it,and would not want any of my tax dollars going for such a horrific act....My opinion,and from my heart.....

I believe the women who have one...do live with it the rest of their lives,and most have regret....It's terrible society has gotton this way,to even make a woman feel that's the right choice...

Creek

 

[Keebs]

Okay Eric.. lets see here

"Funny how the liberals cry about the people who die in war but promote the killing of children. I think we can all agree that once the brain is formed, it is a child. No longer is this a womens choice, at this point it is murder. Plain and simple."

Doesn't sound like any facts are proven to me. Lets keep looking.


No spirit, I have to disagree. This is large part of our social problems today. No one wants to take personal responsibility anymore. It is always society's fault. This is idealistic garbage. Does society exert an influence, of course it does. Yet we have an innate sense of right and wrong, which we must follow. If we allow this trend to continue no one will be responsible for anything anymore. My father passed away when I was 4 years old, my mom cleaned people’s homes to make ends meet. I was alone at home many times out of necessity. Also keep in mind I grew up during the 70's when drugs and the like were rampant. I could have easily been in trouble and blamed it on my life situation. I learned very young we control our destiny, not society, and we are responsible for our actions and ourselves.

As far as abortion goes, reread my post carefully. Notice I made a point of saying "Once the brain is formed". We have to draw a line as to when a fetus is a human being. Keeping a religious view out of this debate, I think the brain should be the decisive factor. At this point we think and feel. Now if a women is raped there is no reason she cannot find out before this point and terminate the pregnancy."

After this point the only time I can see an abortion is if the life of the mother is a risk. Here you are trading one life for another and we should not force women into this position.

Oh, so now its not "murder plain and simple" its saving a womans life. Make up my mind.

"Other than a situation like this how can you possibly justify murder? Please do not try and tell me that a baby is better off dead than to be put up for adoption. That’s a copout. Better we change our adoption system than kill children"

Well then, IMHO. I think you are a perfect example of why abortion should be legal.

"You know spirit in principle I totally agree with you about society being the culprit. This is one reason I turned conservative in my mid 20's. I watched the liberal influences of the 60's and 70' destroy the moral fabric of this country. Here is the problem though; it would be wonderful if we could change society for the better, but I just do not see it. It seems people like us are in short supply. Our culture seems to constantly push the envelope of morality a little further every day. Now I do not want to sound like a prude, but lets face it, society has went overboard on many issues. We have created the monster that now bites us daily.

Blah blah, I still see nothing about obgyn's

So what do we do? My feeling is if we do not hold people responsible for their actions, society will further break down. People will start to use this more and more as an excuse for criminal behavior, even when it is not true.

Oh, so now you are responsible for my actions? I'm confused. How does my life effect you? Don't tell me my child may be the next President, you do NOT want my child to be president. Besides, for that matter, my child could turn out to be Charles Manson. So this whole predicting the future thing isn't a valid point.

"What about the child's rights ?"

.. what about my right to LIVE? I'm just going to assume that you have no wife, or daugters. Because, if you did.. how could you live with yourself when one of them died because of your self rightious opinions?

You keep wanting to put stipulations on things. Well its ok if, Well its not ok, if. Who died and left you in charge of morals?

"Ok so a women can kill her children any time she desires. Do not tell me a fetus is not alive, if you would like to enter a debate on this issue, I could certainly enlighten you on the subjects of physiology or biology.

I wish you would enlighten us with something than just opinion. I'm still looking for all your factual referances.

Furthermore we are talking about partial birth not abortion in general, I women can choose until a certain point, after that it is murder, plain and simple."

It's murder again? But, I thought you said it was ok to save a womans life? Stay on track dear.

"You are so blinded by consitutional rights that you can not see the truth. You rights cease when they infringe on the rights of another, and a fetus after a certain period of time is a human being with its own rights that must be protected."

What are you blinded by? Are you not using your constitutional rights to spout out whatever you believe? I don't think this was a very good arguement. Oh no! I'm using my rights again to give an opinion. I'm such a bad Liberal.


"And destroying the moral fabric of this country, although, you are probably too young to judge."

Well so far, the only thing I've seen you prove is that you are an old man.

Umm, once again, who died and left you in charge of morals? Tell me ONE thing that Conservatives do that is moral? SO, it's ok to kill someone on death row, but abortion to save a womans life is bad? Tell me what is moral about killing someone. That we already KNOW is human? See, inconsistancy. You can't think for yourself .. you just go with what the man tells you too.

BTW.. before you start in on me. I'm Pro Choice, I support the NRA and I support the death penelty. I support your right to die! At least I'm consistant.


"You should be concerned with everyones rights, not just your own. You sound like a spoiled little child. Really there is no debating with you, you just do not posses the capacity.

And what is it that you think you sound like? A mature old man who knows everything? Pot, meet kettle.

"Here are your rights, you do not want a child, keep your legs closed or use contraception. If it should fail terminate the pregnancy before the human brain and nervous system is formed."

Here are YOUR rights, stay out of my hospital bed. Can you visit every clinic in America to verify that what you are saying can hold true to every abortion? Have you ever once tried to step out of your own shoes, to see what it would be like to live as someone else?


"Just like a liberal uses Constitution rights as an excuse to justify selfish actions."

Just Liberals? I seem to remember a certain conservative group doing the same thing.. I think its called the NRA.

It's Just like a conservative to use Liberalism as part of their arguement.

Sir, if you don't like it, how about YOU leave? This unpatriotic crap works both ways. You don't like the constitution. Leave. But the fact that it is ok for conservatives to use the constitution, and not liberals, is absurd.

"It has often been said that a conservative is little more than a liberal who has grown up."

Where does it say that? In your bible?


"Then tell me why my tax dollars should fund a single social program?

Why should you even pay taxes? Republicans don't want to pay taxes, because it goes for things they don't want to spend money on. IE; walfare ... now, where is your compassion?

-----

Now then Mr. Holier than thou, where is this factual 50 obgyn bs that you were spouting about?

You just can't stand it that there are people that don't agree with you. I mean, lets just take this 40 hour senate debate that just happend. The Republicans just couldn't stand the fact that they couldn't bully the Dems into seeing it their way. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong. What I do with my personal business is no concern to you. I answer to my husband, my family, if I were religious I would answer to god. But sir, I do not have to answer to you.

Now, I would appreciate it if you would let me finish looking for the information I have to find for people that are too lazy to get facts for themselves.

 

[Keebs]

I'm pretty sure the two doctor thing isn't in every state, but neither is intact dialation and extraction. But heres what I found..

Current Law Allows for Abortion after the First Trimester

Legality of Abortion

In Roe v. Wade (410 U.S. 113 (1973)), the U.S. Supreme Court held that the U.S. Constitution protects a woman's decision to terminate her pregnancy. Only after the fetus is viable, capable of sustained survival outside the woman's body with or without artificial aid, may the states ban abortion altogether. Abortions necessary to preserve the woman's life or health must still be allowed, however, even after fetal viability.


Prior to viability, states can regulate abortion, but only if the regulation does not impose a "substantial obstacle" in the path of a woman seeking an abortion (Harrison & Gilbert, 1993).
Determination of Viability

In Planned Parenthood of Central Missouri v. Danforth (428 U.S. 52 (1976)), the U.S. Supreme Court recognized that judgments of viability are inexact and may vary with each pregnancy. As a result, it granted the attending physician the right to ascertain viability on an individual basis. In addition, the Court rejected as unconstitutional fixed gestational limits for determining viability. The court reaffirmed these rulings in the 1979 case Colautti v. Franklin (439 U.S. 379 (1979)).
State Laws and Abortion Facilities

In City of Akron v. Akron Center for Reproductive Health (462 U.S. 416 (1983)), the U.S. Supreme Court invalidated a costly requirement that all second-trimester abortions take place in a hospital.


In Thornburgh v. American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (476 U.S. 747 (1986)), the U.S Supreme Court ruled that a state may require that a second physician be present at the abortion of a viable fetus to care for it should it be born alive, but that requirement must be waivable in a medical emergency.
Laws and Specific Abortion Techniques

In Thornburgh v. American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that a woman may not be required to risk her health to save a fetus even after viability, and it granted the attending physician the right to determine when a pregnancy threatens a woman's life or health.


The court also ruled that when performing a postviability abortion, a physician must be permitted to use the method most likely to preserve the woman's health, even if it might endanger fetal survival.


Anti-choice activists have called for legislation prohibiting "partial birth" abortions, a political term that has no medical definition (Paul et al., 1999).


In Stenberg v. Carhart (530 U.S. 914 (2000)), the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that Nebraska's so-called "partial birth" abortion ban was unconstitutional because it failed to include an exception to preserve the health of the woman, and it imposed an undue burden on a woman's ability to choose an abortion. The court determined that the law was so broadly worded that it could be used to prohibit access to the safest and most common medical procedures for terminating a pregnancy before fetal viability.


Bans on so-called "partial birth" abortions have been passed by 31 states, and legal challenges to these laws have been brought in 21 states. The majority of these states passed laws similar to Nebraska's, and most have been held invalid or are unenforceable (CRLP, 2001).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Cited References



AGI — Alan Guttmacher Institute. (1998, accessed 1999, July 16). Facts in Brief: Induced Abortion [Online]. http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/ib13.html

CDC — Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. (2000, December 8). "Abortion Surveillance — United States, 1997."Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, 49(SS-11).

Cherry, Sheldon & Irwin Merkatz, eds. (1991). Complications of Pregnancy: Medical, Surgical, Gynecologic, Psychosocial, and Perinatal, 4th Edition. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins.

City of Akron v. Akron Center for Reproductive Health, 462 U.S. 416 (1983).

Colautti v. Franklin, 439 U.S. 379 (1979).

CRLP - Center for Reproductive Law and Policy. (2001, accessed 2001, March 22). ""Partial-Birth" Abortion Ban Legislation: By State."

Friedman, Stanford B., et al. (1998). Comprehensive Adolescent Health Care, 2nd ed. St. Louis: Mosby.

Gold, Rachel Benson. (1990). Abortion and Women's Health: A Turning Point for America? New York: The Alan Guttmacher Institute.

Harrison, Maureen & Steve Gilbert, eds. (1993). Abortion Decisions of the United States Supreme Court: The 1990's. Beverly Hills, CA: Excellent Books.

Henshaw, Stanley K. (1995a). "Factors Hindering Access to Abortion Services." Family Planning Perspectives, 27(2), 54-59 & 87.

_____. (1995b). "The Impact of Requirements for Parental Consent On Minors' Abortions in Mississippi." Family Planning Perspectives, 27(3), 120-122.

_____. (1998). "Abortion Incidence and Services in the United States, 1995-1996." Family Planning Perspectives, 30(6), 263-270 & 287.

Paul, Maureen, et al. (1999). A Clinician's Guide to Medical and Surgical Abortion. New York: Churchill Livingstone.

Planned Parenthood of Central Missouri v. Danforth, 428 U.S. 52 (1976).

Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973).

Stenberg v. Carhart, 530 U.S. 914 (2000).

Talbot, Margaret. (1999, July 11). "The Little White Bombshell." New York Times Magazine, 39-43.

Thornburgh v. American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, 476 U.S. 747 (1986).


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Of course, no argument to save the life of my daughter, or myself, will ever be good enough for bible thumpers and politicians.

To eric and creek....

How many children have you adopted? And how many more do you plan on adopting?

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by eric
Is this guy kidding me !

Be gentle! He's just a liberal college puke.

Ain't that right, fudgy?

 

[eric]

Where did I say that I stated any facts in the treads, what I said was that my Opinions were based of factual evidence.

There is no conflict in these opinons either, let me make it simple for the simple minded:

Once the human brain is formed, the baby is a human being, at this point abortion is murder, unless the mothers life is at risk, in which case we can not ask her to swap one life for another. Before the brain is formed I do not have a problem with termination.

As far as Mr. Holier than thou, no I just have compassion for human life, something you obviously lack, very sad in reality, you must be quite cold-hearted. Furthmore do not bring religion into the mix none of these opinions were based on religious views.

 

[Creek]

How many children do you plan on aborting Keebs?


That question was uncalled for,and a ridiculas remark...That's one of the problems..people debate with articles,and make this so political....A couple of us speak from the heart,and don't even bring religion as a steping to our feelings on it...and you ask a question like that........

If a girl was seeking advice...who would you send her to?...Somebody with a heart?..Or some cold hearted soul with a bunch of mumbo jumbo....?

 

[janeeng]

Do any of you know how a TRUE ABORTION is done? everyone can argue what they THINK abortion is or what is right or wrong, it's still MURDER!!! yeah, your put under, dialated to a FULL 9 centimeters, then once fully dialated, in goes the tube with a nice razor at the end of it, cut out the fetus, literally slice it up into pieces and sucked into a jar, once done, that jar is disposed of - hell of a way to get rid of a child ha??? sorry, but this issue just gets to me, but had to throw in my 2 cents and these ARE THE FACTS on how it's done. It is known as the SILENT KILLER!!!!!!

 

[eric]

Thank you Janeen, it is far too easy to debate this issue without realizing the cold reality of the procedure itself.

I just do not understand how someone can destroy the life of a healthy, unborn, defenseless child. If this makes me an bad person, then so be it.

 

[Keebs]

Do any of you know how a TRUE ABORTION is done? everyone can argue what they THINK abortion is or what is right or wrong, it's still MURDER!!! yeah, your put under, dialated to a FULL 9 centimeters, then once fully dialated, in goes the tube with a nice razor at the end of it, cut out the fetus, literally slice it up into pieces and sucked into a jar, once done, that jar is disposed of - hell of a way to get rid of a child ha??? sorry, but this issue just gets to me, but had to throw in my 2 cents and these ARE THE FACTS on how it's done. It is known as the SILENT KILLER!!!!!!

How many abortions have you preformed? How many have you watched? Or are you talking about the pictures they show from Pro Life pamplets?

How many children do you plan on aborting Keebs?

Well, I've aborted 0 kids. And I plan on aborting 0. Is that okay with you? You offer adoption as a solution. Who are adopting these children? I thought that was a valid question.



Do you know the difference between pro choice and pro abortion?

That question was uncalled for,and a ridiculas remark...That's one of the problems..people debate with articles,and make this so political....A couple of us speak from the heart,and don't even bring religion as a steping to our feelings on it...and you ask a question like that........

*laughs* I still don't see what is wrong with an honest question?
Why are you so definsive? Because adoption is an option for someone else to deal with? Because you never plan on adopting?

If a girl was seeking advice...who would you send her to?...Somebody with a heart?..Or some cold hearted soul with a bunch of mumbo jumbo....?

If my daughter came to me.. we would go through ALL of the options and I would let her make her own decisions. Is that answer ok with you?

------

Eric eric eric...you just said...

"Where did I say that I stated any facts in the treads, what I said was that my Opinions were based of factual evidence."


I think you are the one spouting your mouth, where did you get your information "a google search", I'm sure this makes you a medical expert. My opinions were formed based on conversations with approx 50 OB/GYNs that I have regular business/personal contact with.

I want to see the video tapes where you recorded your actual findings with 50 obgyn's.

There is no conflict in these opinons either, let me make it simple for the simple minded:

Yes, please do, because I'm to simple to understand how to breathe.

Once the human brain is formed, the baby is a human being, at this point abortion is murder, unless the mothers life is at risk, in which case we can not ask her to swap one life for another. Before the brain is formed I do not have a problem with termination.

Please post your referances. I want to see where it says this. Medical records please. Scientific facts. I want them..

As far as Mr. Holier than thou, no I just have compassion for human life, something you obviously lack, very sad in reality, you must be quite cold-hearted. Furthmore do not bring religion into the mix none of these opinions were based on religious views.

Compassion? So, If I decide not to abort my child, and it grows up to me homosexual, are you going to allow my child the same rights everyone else has?

Do I lack compassion? Do you know me from adam? How many charities did you contribute to, sir? How many children have you adopted sir?

But see, I can bring religion into it. Because it is there. You might not bring it up..

Now, can you answer any of these questions I've just posted? Or the ones I posted before? Do you wanna debate, or talk down to me? You can't even answer the questions I've asked.

 

[eric]

Then tell me why my tax dollars should fund a single social program?

It is called compassion, something you obviously lack !

By the way, when you quote someone, include the whole thing, not just what suits your purpose, makes you look foolish.

 

[Keebs]

Are you not worried about looking foolish because you can't answer my questions?

I posted what you said. Where is Rush Limbaugh when you need him???

HELP....can't...think on...my own.....agggggh

Show me your compassion. SHOW me.. Tell me what you've done that makes you think you are compassionate.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Keebs
Are you not worried about looking foolish because you can't answer my questions?

I posted what you said. Where is Rush Limbaugh when you need him???

HELP....can't...think on...my own.....agggggh

Show me your compassion. SHOW me.. Tell me what you've done that makes you think you are compassionate.

I can tell you what I HAVEN'T done: murdered any children.

 

[Keebs]

I can tell you what I HAVEN'T done: murdered any children.

Children? You mean like toddlers? Me either. Can a fetus live outside of the mothers womb? Then how can it be a child. SHOW ME THE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that a fetus, is infact, a child.

Do you support the death penelty? Because if you do, you're killing ADULTS. When you do not support abortion laws, you are killing women. But I guess that doesn't matter to you. As long as the fetus survives.

Do you support the NRA? Guns kill people.

 

[eric]

Compassion? So, If I decide not to abort my child, and it grows up to me homosexual, are you going to allow my child the same rights everyone else has?

Absolutely !

Medical records please. Scientific facts. I want them..

Sorry, can not do that, it violates HIPPA regulations, do your research before asking for things that can not be shared.

Do I lack compassion? Do you know me from adam? How many charities did you contribute to, sir?

The company I run gives to many, many charities.

As far as me personally, my wife and I sponser 3 children in India, and we work with "The Childrens Miracle Network", in fact we were on their telethon a couple of years ago. Is that a start?

I want to see the video tapes where you recorded your actual findings with 50 obgyn's.

Now, is this not silly? I said from conversations, not interviews!

No, I have not witnessed an abortion live, I have seen the procedure on video, and in Medical Texts, we have an extensive medical library, due to the fact my wife is in Medical school.

 

[Keebs]

oh oh! I love it!!! The proof can't be shown!! You sound like Bush now!

Sorry, can not do that, it violates HIPPA regulations, do your research before asking for things that can not be shared.

*dies laughing*

I am glad you support gay rights. That just moved you out of dumbass status for me.

The company I run gives to many, many charities. As far as me personally, my wife and I sponser 3 children in India, and we work with "The Childrens Miracle Network", in fact we were on their telethon a couple of years ago. Is that a start?

That is wonderful, bravo!

Now, is this not silly? I said from conversations, not interviews!

Well, it's not any sillier than you telling me that I'm spouting out the mouth, and google is my prime resource.

No, I have not witnessed an abortion live, I have seen the procedure on video, and in Medical Texts, we have an extensive medical library, due to the fact my wife is in Medical school.

Well, if your wife is in medical school, than you both should no abortion saves lives.

 

[Moi]

Originally posted by Keebs
Are you not worried about looking foolish because you can't answer my questions?

I posted what you said. Where is Rush Limbaugh when you need him???

HELP....can't...think on...my own.....agggggh

Show me your compassion. SHOW me.. Tell me what you've done that makes you think you are compassionate.

Oh, where to begin. First of all if you cannot see any difference between the death of a person who has been convicted of a capital crime dying and the death of a fetus, you need course on responsibility. The person on death row is responsible for his own fate; a fetus didn't do anything to deserve death.

You want to see my compassion: I donated over $40,000 dollars last year to other people, how much did you donate? I built a habitat for humanity house, did you? My company, of which I was a partner (and thus had a say), built over 2,000 units of affordable housing around the country. Did yours? The non-profit organization that I am a governor of (again, with decision making ability) donated over $15,000 to various compassionate causes. I have voted according to my conscience and shown others compassion through charitable works.


Go ahead, lay your cards on the table. I'm not afraid.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Keebs
I can tell you what I HAVEN'T done: murdered any children.

Children? You mean like toddlers? Me either. Can a fetus live outside of the mothers womb? Then how can it be a child. SHOW ME THE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that a fetus, is infact, a child.

Do you support the death penelty? Because if you do, you're killing ADULTS. When you do not support abortion laws, you are killing women. But I guess that doesn't matter to you. As long as the fetus survives.

Do you support the NRA? Guns kill people.

There have been countless stories of women that were killed/murdered... where the child had to be extracted prematurely. The child ends up surviving and leads a natural life. And guess what, the time of the emergency extraction was about the same time a partial term abortion would take place. Shoot, there have been stories of children surviving after only being in the womb for 5-6 months.

You are going to compare the death penalty to abortion? LOL What has the unborn child done to deserve the death penalty?

And I do support the NRA, and the guns don't kill people. If there were no people around, would the guns still be killing? It's the people behind the killings.

 

[jimnyc]

I am glad you support gay rights. That just moved you out of dumbass status for me.

Poor 'ol me, I guess I'm a dumbass!