Palin vs. the Constitution

[Navy1960]

I love all those quotes, Adams in particular as I recently read McCullough's book on the life of John Adams. However, the Constitution itself trumps the funny but bitter quotes of those frustrated potential POTUS seekers.

The Constitutuion is clear that the VP is a member of each Branch in question.

I would have to disagree with the assertion that the constitution is clear that the OVP is a member of both branches. Yes, the OVP does have legislative duties "to break a tie vote in the Senate" he and or she has NO other voting power and the title " president of the Senate" has no duties. The OVP up until 2002 submitted reports to the National Archives on Information Security Oversight and is listed on "Classified National Security Documents Listing" which up until this current VP took office submitted reports annually as an executive branch function. So if this assertion is correct then, the OVP needs to be removed from that list formally. However, OVP is a member of the Executive Branch of govt. and has for over 200 years been recoginzed as a member of that branch of govt. The assertion that because some of his duties as outlined in the constitution are legislative in nature make him a member of the legislative branch are simply untrue.

The Vice President of the United States is the ex-officio President of the United States Senate. He may have a casting voice in the Senate's decisions only to break a tie.

ex of�fi�ci�o �� (ks -fsh-) KEY �

ADVERB:
&
ADJECTIVE:
Abbr. e.o.
By virtue of office or position. The Office of Vice President of the United States

Number of tie-breakers the current VP has cast.

Richard B. Cheney (8) 2001– April 3, 2001
April 5, 2001
May 21, 2002
April 11, 2003
May 15, 2003
May 23, 2003
December 21, 2005
March 13, 2008

 

[PeterS]

And Obama is defending Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Minnesota, the state that stayed blue in '80 when the west and the north-east went red. So what's your point?

McCain has already conceded Michigan, Wisconsin went to Kerry by 0.4 and Gore by 0.2 (hardly what you would call a blue state), and Obama is ahead of both Kerrys and Gores numbers in Minnesota. My point, other than you are full of crap, is that anytime a conservative spends money in a state that should be a lock the party is over. Just in time for Moose season though so Sarah should be happy...gosh darn golly gee...

 

[Tristan]

I would have to disagree with the assertion that the constitution is clear that the OVP is a member of both branches. Yes, the OVP does have legislative duties "to break a tie vote in the Senate" he and or she has NO other voting power and the title " president of the Senate" has no duties. The OVP up until 2002 submitted reports to the National Archives on Information Security Oversight and is listed on "Classified National Security Documents Listing" which up until this current VP took office submitted reports annually as an executive branch function. So if this assertion is correct then, the OVP needs to be removed from that list formally. However, OVP is a member of the Executive Branch of govt. and has for over 200 years been recoginzed as a member of that branch of govt. The assertion that because some of his duties as outlined in the constitution are legislative in nature make him a member of the legislative branch are simply untrue.

The Vice President of the United States is the ex-officio President of the United States Senate. He may have a casting voice in the Senate's decisions only to break a tie.

ex of�fi�ci�o �� (ks -fsh-) KEY �

ADVERB:
&
ADJECTIVE:
Abbr. e.o.
By virtue of office or position. The Office of Vice President of the United States

Number of tie-breakers the current VP has cast.

Richard B. Cheney (8) 2001– April 3, 2001
April 5, 2001
May 21, 2002
April 11, 2003
May 15, 2003
May 23, 2003
December 21, 2005
March 13, 2008

The VP's role had evolved through the 20th century to lean much more toward the executive Branch but that has not always been the case and clearly not for "200 years". It was only in the mid part of the 20th century that the VP has even had an office in the White House. (before that point it was in the Senate. Clearly VP only votes in the case of a tie (and that, after all, is the only time it matters, lol) but voting is not the only job of the Legistators nor the only way to have influence.

Remember, when the VP is not there, the duties of the VP fall to the president pro tempore. However, the president pro tempore does have the same tie breaking powers of the VP. So what duties are we talking about?

U.S. Senate: Art & History Home > People > Officers & Staff > Vice President of the United States (President of the Senate)

Under the original code of Senate rules, the presiding officer exercised great power over the conduct of the body's proceedings. Rule XVI provided that "every question of order shall be decided by the President [of the Senate], without debate; but if there be a doubt in his mind, he may call for a sense of the Senate." Thus, contrary to later practice, the presiding officer was the sole judge of proper procedure and his rulings could not be turned aside by the full Senate without his assent.

During the twentieth century, the role of the vice president has evolved into more of an executive branch position. Now, the vice president is usually seen as an integral part of a president's administration and presides over the Senate only on ceremonial occasions or when a tie-breaking vote may be needed. Yet, even though the nature of the job has changed, it is still greatly affected by the personality and skills of the individual incumbent.

Or, put more simply, Biden was full of crap.

 

[Navy1960]

The VP's role had evolved through the 20th century to lean much more toward the executive Branch but that has not always been the case and clearly not for "200 years". It was only in the mid part of the 20th century that the VP has even had an office in the White House. (before that point it was in the Senate. Clearly VP only votes in the case of a tie (and that, after all, is the only time it matters, lol) but voting is not the only job of the Legistators nor the only way to have influence.

Remember, when the VP is not there, the duties of the VP fall to the president pro tempore. However, the president pro tempore does have the same tie breaking powers of the VP. So what duties are we talking about?

U.S. Senate: Art & History Home > People > Officers & Staff > Vice President of the United States (President of the Senate)




Or, put more simply, Biden was full of crap.

Perhaps I should have used the word legislative duty, rather than duties. However, I cannot agree that the Vice President is a multi-branch office as defined by Dick Cheney. His assertion, that the office is not subject to Executive Order's because it is not fully under the the Executive Branch when it has up until this administration been recognized and submittied annual reviews to the National Archives as part of the Executive Branch seems a little thin. I suppose you could say a lieiglative duty these days could be defined by acting a liason between the Hill and the President, if that were the case then the last several V.P's have fallen down on the job. lol

 

[NOBama]

Hasn't the VP also been given the job of certifying electoral votes before the Senate?

 

[Navy1960]

Here is an Example of what I am saying, when someone is a member of the United States Military and then they are assigned to the White House are the a member of the Executive Branch or are they a member of the Military? As in the case of Colin Powell when he was Ronald Reagans National Security Advisor. The answer is, he was still an "Active duty officer" and very much a part of the US Military, however his duties were that of "National Security Advisor" in the Executive Branch. As Dick Cheney is Vice President in the Executive Branch with a "duty in the United States Senate"

 

[Tristan]

Perhaps I should have used the word legislative duty, rather than duties. However, I cannot agree that the Vice President is a multi-branch office as defined by Dick Cheney. His assertion, that the office is not subject to Executive Order's because it is not fully under the the Executive Branch when it has up until this administration been recognized and submittied annual reviews to the National Archives as part of the Executive Branch seems a little thin. I suppose you could say a lieiglative duty these days could be defined by acting a liason between the Hill and the President, if that were the case then the last several V.P's have fallen down on the job. lol

IMO Cheney's attempts to shield himself from accountability is feeble in either case. I don't defend that and don't believe anyone is above the law. (except Sandy Burger of course. sigh)

My point was to establish the nebulous nature of the powers of the VP. The VP used to set the agenda in the Senate in much the way the Majority Leader does today. Now, that said, I do not advocate that the job should go back to the VP. I'm only saying that Biden pretending to have a full and authoritative claim to some special knowledge of the job is foolish. (never mind his own mangled explanation there of in the debate. Further, Palin was intentionaly misquoted weeks ago when she noted that she had asked McCain what kind of VP he was seeking and what VP would mean in a McCain administration. (a very good question)

This narrative was set up that somehow Palin was clueless and Biden knew the ins and outs of the Executive Branch. That is a lie and I was happy to see Biden exposed and happier still that he himself was the vehicle that laid that bare. All that said and all partisanship aside, IMHO Vice President of the United States of America is far and away the goofiest job on the planet.

 

[jillian]

Or, put more simply, Biden was full of crap.

Biden was correct, notwithstanding the perversion of the constitution by the current admin.

 

[dilloduck]

IMO Cheney's attempts to shield himself from accountability is feeble in either case. I don't defend that and don't believe anyone is above the law. (except Sandy Burger of course. sigh)

My point was to establish the nebulous nature of the powers of the VP. The VP used to set the agenda in the Senate in much the way the Majority Leader does today. Now, that said, I do not advocate that the job should go back to the VP. I'm only saying that Biden pretending to have a full and authoritative claim to some special knowledge of the job is foolish. (never mind his own mangled explanation there of in the debate. Further, Palin was intentionaly misquoted weeks ago when she noted that she had asked McCain what kind of VP he was seeking and what VP would mean in a McCain administration. (a very good question)

This narrative was set up that somehow Palin was clueless and Biden knew the ins and outs of the Executive Branch. That is a lie and I was happy to see Biden exposed and happier still that he himself was the vehicle that laid that bare. All that said and all partisanship aside, IMHO Vice President of the United States of America is far and away the goofiest job on the planet.

goofier than a MODERATOR ??? no way !

 

[Navy1960]

IMHO Vice President of the United States of America is far and away the goofiest job on the planet.

I could not agree more with that, and given the recent track record of some of the more notable one's it does tend to make one want to turn the house at the Naval Observatory back into base housing. LOL

I think we both tend to come to the same conclusion about the powers of the V.P. just took different paths to get there.

 

[frazzledgear]

Think Progress Palin Says She Will Seek Some Authority Over Legislative And Judicial Branches

Any conservative want to explain this?

Since I don't have a comprehension deficit, I'll certainly try.

1. The headline is a lie and deliberately misleading. Maybe you REALLY didn't notice, but even the Palin quote the author used from the debate -says the office of VP shouldn't be used to bleed authority from the Executive branch to the other two branches. It does not say she thinks the VP office should be used to try and bleed authority from the other two branches. If you are still in doubt, ask any 3rd grader -they can tell you that what she really said isn't the same thing as what the headline claims. Nothing in the body of the article even supports that headline -which means it was used to try and manipulate those people who are actually cows with a comprehension deficit who just can't figure out what someone has REALLY said until it is "interpreted" by someone with a far leftwing political agenda. Can you say "mooo" for us all now?

2. She said the office of VP has flexible duties and responsibilities within the executive branch and that flexibility is a Presidential power. Hard to argue with that -even if you are not well educated.

Just a few of many examples. FDR wouldn't let his VP even sit in on White House meetings and briefings, Reagan had his VP do little more than attend state funerals but at least he did attend cabinet meetings. Clinton and Bush both had their VPs play a more significant role in the Executive branch of government. The specific role a VP has had within any administration has been anywhere from one of near nonexistent to fully involved. That must mean the specific duties and role the office of VP has within the executive branch -are determined by the President who makes the decision based on how he thinks that office will best serve his administration -and is a Presidential power. Just like she said. It also means that the specific role a VP has within the executive branch is a flexible one. Just like she said.

If Biden had so seriously misstated the Presidential powers, the role of VP within the Executive branch and the Constitution with regard to the office of VP, media would be having a real field day insisting it is proof positive the woman is unfit for the office. But since they firmly believe in a double standard and it was Biden who did that -they will ignore it. Even though he was wrong about whether a VP presides over the Senate, was wrong about which Article of the Constitution spells out the bare bones duties of a VP, was wrong about the fact the specific executive duties of a VP are flexible AND determined by a President and even though he was wrong about whether the only time a VP is even seen in the Senate is in the event of a tie.

Anyone with a 3rd grade education should have been able to comprehend the difference between what that lying ass headline said -and the meaning of the actual Palin quote -especially since it was included in that article. And anyone who got a D or better in high school US history should have been able to correctly define the office of the VP, the fact that it IS the President who has the power to decide what role the VP will have within the Executive branch. As well as the fact the VP really DOES preside over the Senate in addition to casting a vote in the event of a tie. Even an overpaid Senator should have known that. But he didn't. It makes sense but in a very, very sad way that the only person in that debate who didn't know - is the guy YOU want as VP. LOL

 

[Ravi]

Navy, good explanation of the "powers" of the VP and which branch the VP belongs to.

My apologies, I see that TP corrected their story and Palin didn't say what they originally claimed.

I still enjoyed several of the posters deflection and spinning.