Oregon imposes gag order on Christian bakers in gay wedding case

[WorldWatcher]

There is no such thing as a "Christian" wedding cake (just as there are no "gay" wedding cakes). There are "wedding cakes" and the customer is Christian or gay.

/boggle......it isn't a question of "Christian" versus "gay" wedding cakes.....its the difference between real and pretend.......

Pretty sure the intent of the tasting was to order a real wedding cake.

Is there a discount for a "pretend" cake?


>>>>

 

[The Rabbi]

of course they are not 'required' to provide toppers....just as they should not be 'required' to bake wedding cakes for gays...

gays once wanted tolerance and they got it.....now they want complete acceptance and approval and conjoining....this steps on the beliefs and practices of others...

You are mistaken. In some places if you are a baker that bakes wedding cakes, you must sell the same cake to a gay couple that you just sold to a straight couple.

In all 50 states a gay person MUST serve a Christian.

i guess it is time for people to start establishing specialized Christian bakeries that only sell Christian wedding cakes.....just like there are Halaal butchers that only sell halaal meat....and gays can establish their own bakeries that sell rainbow wedding cakes....

Perhaps those Christian b
Averie's should post a sign so there can be of confusion about their discriminatory policies. Maybe something that says:

DUE TO OUR LOVE AND DEVOTION TO THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS CHRIST, WE REFUSE TO LOVE OUR NEIGHBORS AS OURSELVES.

Or maybe:

DUE TO OUR DEEP AND ABIDING FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST, WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO JUDGE OUR CUSTOMERS EVEN THOUGH WE OURSELVES WILL BE JUDGED.

How about:
OUR FAITH IS OURS AND NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS.
OUR BUSINESS IS OURS AND NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS.

Might need some work on the tone but the substance is good.

Yeah. Using "FUCKING" along side "FAITH" is more revealing than you might imagine. As in, using "FUCKING" denotes what a shallow faith it is.

Again revealing your inabilities. "Fucking business" Faith is nowhere near there.
/busted.

 

[bripat9643]

What rights were infringed upon specifically? How was this bakery "attacked" by homosexuals? How did homosexual customers keep the bakery from worshiping God? Did they attack and burn the church?

The right to freedom of association was infringed on. No one has a right to be served by any business, period.

 

[bripat9643]

What rights were infringed upon specifically? How was this bakery "attacked" by homosexuals? How did homosexual customers keep the bakery from worshiping God? Did they attack and burn the church?

well you might understand better if you went to a Muslim bakery and asked them to bake a gay wedding cake for you....i am sure they would inform you in no uncertain terms why they would not do so..... and if you didn't like their explanation and tried to sue them then you would probably be at the wrong end of a fatwa.....

of course this exercise would never happen because lefties and Muslims 'get along'.....

I still don't understand what rights were infringed. Were the Christians kept from worshipping? Was their property damaged? What exactly were the means and methods of the attacks on rights?

their right to practice freedom of religion.....(not to mention their free speech)
of course the left is trying to limit religion to the confines of a church...and ban it from the public square...

The freedom to choose your customers requires a rather broad interpretation of freedom of religion, so broad that it would open the door for a person or business to do just about anything under the guise of freedom of religion.

Wrong. It only opens the door for business owners to serve who they want to serve, a right they already have.

 

[bripat9643]

well you might understand better if you went to a Muslim bakery and asked them to bake a gay wedding cake for you....i am sure they would inform you in no uncertain terms why they would not do so..... and if you didn't like their explanation and tried to sue them then you would probably be at the wrong end of a fatwa.....

of course this exercise would never happen because lefties and Muslims 'get along'.....

I still don't understand what rights were infringed. Were the Christians kept from worshipping? Was their property damaged? What exactly were the means and methods of the attacks on rights?

their right to practice freedom of religion.....(not to mention their free speech)
of course the left is trying to limit religion to the confines of a church...and ban it from the public square...

The freedom to choose your customers requires a rather broad interpretation of freedom of religion, so broad that it would open the door for a person or business to do just about anything under the guise of freedom of religion.

i thought it was the customer who had the choice to buy or not buy....the freedom to shop wherever he got what he wanted...

are you saying a shop keeper must supply whatever any customer demanded...?

I'm saying if the shopkeeper is in business to serve the public he should serve the public. When he put's that open for business sign up, he should not be able to pick his customers based on race, sex, ethnic origins, or sexual preference.

The shopkeeper is in business to serve whomever he wants to server. Your theory that you get to determine who he serves only shows that you are statist to the bone. Why shouldn't he be able to pick his customers based on any criteria he chooses?

 

[bripat9643]

their right to practice freedom of religion.....(not to mention their free speech)
of course the left is trying to limit religion to the confines of a church...and ban it from the public square...

The freedom to choose your customers requires a rather broad interpretation of freedom of religion, so broad that it would open the door for a person or business to do just about anything under the guise of freedom of religion.

i thought it was the customer who had the choice to buy or not buy....the freedom to shop wherever he got what he wanted...

are you saying a shop keeper must supply whatever any customer demanded...?

I'm saying if the shopkeeper is in business to serve the public he should serve the public. When he put's that open for business sign up, he should not be able to pick his customers based on race, sex, ethnic origins, or sexual preference.

what about religion....?

isn't the 'ordinary' butcher picking customers based on religion....?

You don't seem to grasp this. Let's try again.

Wedding cakes are on the menu at the bakery. The baker is discriminating against homosexuals by not providing an item that is part and parcel of his normal business.

A butcher may or may not go to the trouble of certifying his shop as Kosher or Halaal. If he does decide that his business should offer Kosher or Halaal products, he has to offer those product to the general public.

If a customer wants Kosher/Halaal products, he should go to a butcher offering such products as a normal part of his business.

If you offer products, be they wedding cakes or Kosher chicken, you have to sell to the general public. If you want specialized products, the customer cannot demand the proprietor to provide items beyond his menu.

They only reason you can't sell to whomever you choose to sell to is because of the totalitarian demands of liberals.

 

[bripat9643]

Here is what wedding cakes look like:

And that's what same sex couples expect. The exact same level of service provided to customers these bakers are not afraid of.bakers are not of.

those are all special order cakes....they fall in the category of 'speciality' cakes......the baker does not have to provide them....

If the baker has a portfolio of photographs of cakes like these, does that not mean then that he does indeed produce these cakes? If a customer takes a photograph of a specific cake they would like, the baker is not under any obligation to try to produce a cake. Especially a cake beyond his skill, equipment and ingredients.

All same sex couples expect is the same level of service offered to everyone else. No law abiding, sober, responsible American citizen should be turned away because of who they are.

A business owner has the right to turn away anyone he doesn't want to server, for whatever reason. That's called freedom of association.

 

[PostmodernProph]

A cake is a cake is cake.

I completely agree.....that's why I'm surprised the gay couple objected when their cake was delivered.....

 

[PostmodernProph]

Pretty sure the intent of the tasting was to order a real wedding cake.

why would you need a real wedding cake at a pretend wedding?......

 

[WorldWatcher]

Pretty sure the intent of the tasting was to order a real wedding cake.

why would you need a real wedding cake at a pretend wedding?......

It's not a pretend wedding. Same-sex couple really do get Civilly Married in this country and have been starting with the first state in 2004.


>>>>

 

[dblack]

a generic wedding cake typically has one man - one woman figures on the top.....the baker would have to change his product to accommodate two gays or two lesbians...thus he would be getting into a specialty product....much like the Kosher or Halaal products...

No baker is required to carry bride/bride or groom/groom toppers. The cake is the same and in some places you are required to bake it for gay couples just like straight couples if you bake wedding cakes.

of course they are not 'required' to provide toppers....just as they should not be 'required' to bake wedding cakes for gays...

gays once wanted tolerance and they got it.....now they want complete acceptance and approval and conjoining....this steps on the beliefs and practices of others...

You are mistaken. In some places if you are a baker that bakes wedding cakes, you must sell the same cake to a gay couple that you just sold to a straight couple.

In all 50 states a gay person MUST serve a Christian.

i guess it is time for people to start establishing specialized Christian bakeries that only sell Christian wedding cakes.....just like there are Halaal butchers that only sell halaal meat....and gays can establish their own bakeries that sell rainbow wedding cakes....

Perhaps those Christian b
Averie's should post a sign so there can be of confusion about their discriminatory policies. Maybe something that says:

DUE TO OUR LOVE AND DEVOTION TO THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS CHRIST, WE REFUSE TO LOVE OUR NEIGHBORS AS OURSELVES.

Or maybe:

DUE TO OUR DEEP AND ABIDING FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST, WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO JUDGE OUR CUSTOMERS EVEN THOUGH WE OURSELVES WILL BE JUDGED.

Exactly. But these laws remove their right to do that.

 

[PostmodernProph]

Pretty sure the intent of the tasting was to order a real wedding cake.

why would you need a real wedding cake at a pretend wedding?......

It's not a pretend wedding. Same-sex couple really do get Civilly Married in this country and have been starting with the first state in 2004.


>>>>

so you pretend......

 

[WorldWatcher]

Pretty sure the intent of the tasting was to order a real wedding cake.

why would you need a real wedding cake at a pretend wedding?......

It's not a pretend wedding. Same-sex couple really do get Civilly Married in this country and have been starting with the first state in 2004.


>>>>

so you pretend......

Not a "pretend", they are in fact legally valid Civil Marriages.


>>>>

 

[Nosmo King]

Why is it that Conservatives would rather deny the fact of marriage equality than embrace it as law? Why do Conservatives champion division over unity? Why do they endorse erosion of rights over expansion of rights? Why do they seek freedom to discriminate instead of inclusion?

And why are Conservatives consistently on the wrong side of history?

When have Social Conservatives ever prevailed in their efforts to repress minorities and civil rights?

 

[Flopper]

what about religion....?

isn't the 'ordinary' butcher picking customers based on religion....?

You don't seem to grasp this. Let's try again.

Wedding cakes are on the menu at the bakery. The baker is discriminating against homosexuals by not providing an item that is part and parcel of his normal business.

A butcher may or may not go to the trouble of certifying his shop as Kosher or Halaal. If he does decide that his business should offer Kosher or Halaal products, he has to offer those product to the general public.

If a customer wants Kosher/Halaal products, he should go to a butcher offering such products as a normal part of his business.

If you offer products, be they wedding cakes or Kosher chicken, you have to sell to the general public. If you want specialized products, the customer cannot demand the proprietor to provide items beyond his menu.

a generic wedding cake typically has one man - one woman figures on the top.....the baker would have to change his product to accommodate two gays or two lesbians...thus he would be getting into a specialty product....much like the Kosher or Halaal products...

No baker is required to carry bride/bride or groom/groom toppers. The cake is the same and in some places you are required to bake it for gay couples just like straight couples if you bake wedding cakes.

of course they are not 'required' to provide toppers....just as they should not be 'required' to bake wedding cakes for gays...

gays once wanted tolerance and they got it.....now they want complete acceptance and approval and conjoining....this steps on the beliefs and practices of others...

You are mistaken. In some places if you are a baker that bakes wedding cakes, you must sell the same cake to a gay couple that you just sold to a straight couple.

In all 50 states a gay person MUST serve a Christian.

In about 20 states, that's true, state laws protect gays and lesbian for denial

I still don't understand what rights were infringed. Were the Christians kept from worshipping? Was their property damaged? What exactly were the means and methods of the attacks on rights?

their right to practice freedom of religion.....(not to mention their free speech)
of course the left is trying to limit religion to the confines of a church...and ban it from the public square...

The freedom to choose your customers requires a rather broad interpretation of freedom of religion, so broad that it would open the door for a person or business to do just about anything under the guise of freedom of religion.

i thought it was the customer who had the choice to buy or not buy....the freedom to shop wherever he got what he wanted...

are you saying a shop keeper must supply whatever any customer demanded...?

I'm saying if the shopkeeper is in business to serve the public he should serve the public. When he put's that open for business sign up, he should not be able to pick his customers based on race, sex, ethnic origins, or sexual preference.

The shopkeeper is in business to serve whomever he wants to server. Your theory that you get to determine who he serves only shows that you are statist to the bone. Why shouldn't he be able to pick his customers based on any criteria he chooses?

First of all it's illegal. The 1964 Civil Rights act makes it illegal to discriminate based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. Additionally it's against federal law to discriminate against those with disabilities. In 20 states and a number of municipalities, it's illegal to discriminate based sexual preference.

From a philosophical point, people should only be judged on their actions, not on any immutable characteristics. To pre-judge someone is bad and unfair. Denial of services creates a system of 2nd class citizens where people are judged not by their individual actions but by perceptions based on stereotypes and personal prejudices. Class discrimination is just plain wrong.

 

[dblack]

You don't seem to grasp this. Let's try again.

Wedding cakes are on the menu at the bakery. The baker is discriminating against homosexuals by not providing an item that is part and parcel of his normal business.

A butcher may or may not go to the trouble of certifying his shop as Kosher or Halaal. If he does decide that his business should offer Kosher or Halaal products, he has to offer those product to the general public.

If a customer wants Kosher/Halaal products, he should go to a butcher offering such products as a normal part of his business.

If you offer products, be they wedding cakes or Kosher chicken, you have to sell to the general public. If you want specialized products, the customer cannot demand the proprietor to provide items beyond his menu.

a generic wedding cake typically has one man - one woman figures on the top.....the baker would have to change his product to accommodate two gays or two lesbians...thus he would be getting into a specialty product....much like the Kosher or Halaal products...

No baker is required to carry bride/bride or groom/groom toppers. The cake is the same and in some places you are required to bake it for gay couples just like straight couples if you bake wedding cakes.

of course they are not 'required' to provide toppers....just as they should not be 'required' to bake wedding cakes for gays...

gays once wanted tolerance and they got it.....now they want complete acceptance and approval and conjoining....this steps on the beliefs and practices of others...

You are mistaken. In some places if you are a baker that bakes wedding cakes, you must sell the same cake to a gay couple that you just sold to a straight couple.

In all 50 states a gay person MUST serve a Christian.

In about 20 states, that's true, state laws protect gays and lesbian for denial

their right to practice freedom of religion.....(not to mention their free speech)
of course the left is trying to limit religion to the confines of a church...and ban it from the public square...

The freedom to choose your customers requires a rather broad interpretation of freedom of religion, so broad that it would open the door for a person or business to do just about anything under the guise of freedom of religion.

i thought it was the customer who had the choice to buy or not buy....the freedom to shop wherever he got what he wanted...

are you saying a shop keeper must supply whatever any customer demanded...?

I'm saying if the shopkeeper is in business to serve the public he should serve the public. When he put's that open for business sign up, he should not be able to pick his customers based on race, sex, ethnic origins, or sexual preference.

The shopkeeper is in business to serve whomever he wants to server. Your theory that you get to determine who he serves only shows that you are statist to the bone. Why shouldn't he be able to pick his customers based on any criteria he chooses?

First of all it's illegal. The 1964 Civil Rights act makes it illegal to discriminate based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. Additionally it's against federal law to discriminate against those with disabilities. In 20 states and a number of municipalities, it's illegal to discriminate based sexual preference.

From a philosophical point, people should only be judged on their actions, not on any immutable characteristics. To pre-judge someone is bad and unfair. Denial of services creates a system of 2nd class citizens where people are judged not by their individual actions but by perceptions based on stereotypes and personal prejudices. Class discrimination is just plain wrong.

The problem is really with the idea that government should have any say in how we judge each other in the context of voluntary interactions. People have different values, and that's ok. As long as they're not hurting anyone else, they shouldn't be compelled to serve others against their will.

 

[Flopper]

a generic wedding cake typically has one man - one woman figures on the top.....the baker would have to change his product to accommodate two gays or two lesbians...thus he would be getting into a specialty product....much like the Kosher or Halaal products...

No baker is required to carry bride/bride or groom/groom toppers. The cake is the same and in some places you are required to bake it for gay couples just like straight couples if you bake wedding cakes.

of course they are not 'required' to provide toppers....just as they should not be 'required' to bake wedding cakes for gays...

gays once wanted tolerance and they got it.....now they want complete acceptance and approval and conjoining....this steps on the beliefs and practices of others...

You are mistaken. In some places if you are a baker that bakes wedding cakes, you must sell the same cake to a gay couple that you just sold to a straight couple.

In all 50 states a gay person MUST serve a Christian.

In about 20 states, that's true, state laws protect gays and lesbian for denial

The freedom to choose your customers requires a rather broad interpretation of freedom of religion, so broad that it would open the door for a person or business to do just about anything under the guise of freedom of religion.

i thought it was the customer who had the choice to buy or not buy....the freedom to shop wherever he got what he wanted...

are you saying a shop keeper must supply whatever any customer demanded...?

I'm saying if the shopkeeper is in business to serve the public he should serve the public. When he put's that open for business sign up, he should not be able to pick his customers based on race, sex, ethnic origins, or sexual preference.

The shopkeeper is in business to serve whomever he wants to server. Your theory that you get to determine who he serves only shows that you are statist to the bone. Why shouldn't he be able to pick his customers based on any criteria he chooses?

First of all it's illegal. The 1964 Civil Rights act makes it illegal to discriminate based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. Additionally it's against federal law to discriminate against those with disabilities. In 20 states and a number of municipalities, it's illegal to discriminate based sexual preference.

From a philosophical point, people should only be judged on their actions, not on any immutable characteristics. To pre-judge someone is bad and unfair. Denial of services creates a system of 2nd class citizens where people are judged not by their individual actions but by perceptions based on stereotypes and personal prejudices. Class discrimination is just plain wrong.

The problem is really with the idea that government should have any say in how we judge each other in the context of voluntary interactions. People have different values, and that's ok. As long as they're not hurting anyone else, they shouldn't be compelled to serve others against their will.

But it is hurting someone. If you go to the best baker in town for your wedding cake and you are refused service, you have to settle for second best. If there are only two really professional wedding photographers in your town and you're turned down, then you settle for seconds. If you walk into a restaurant, you may be asked to leave or you may be denied a room at the only hotel with a vacancy because they don't take gay couples. Regardless of the fact that you may be a law abiding citizen who does more for the community than most people, you are treated as a second citizen. That's not right or fair.

 

[PostmodernProph]

Pretty sure the intent of the tasting was to order a real wedding cake.

why would you need a real wedding cake at a pretend wedding?......

It's not a pretend wedding. Same-sex couple really do get Civilly Married in this country and have been starting with the first state in 2004.


>>>>

so you pretend......

Not a "pretend", they are in fact legally valid Civil Marriages.


>>>>

you just keep on pretending that.......it will make you feel better.....just like when you pretend killing unborn children isn't really killing children.........

 

[dblack]

No baker is required to carry bride/bride or groom/groom toppers. The cake is the same and in some places you are required to bake it for gay couples just like straight couples if you bake wedding cakes.

of course they are not 'required' to provide toppers....just as they should not be 'required' to bake wedding cakes for gays...

gays once wanted tolerance and they got it.....now they want complete acceptance and approval and conjoining....this steps on the beliefs and practices of others...

You are mistaken. In some places if you are a baker that bakes wedding cakes, you must sell the same cake to a gay couple that you just sold to a straight couple.

In all 50 states a gay person MUST serve a Christian.

In about 20 states, that's true, state laws protect gays and lesbian for denial

i thought it was the customer who had the choice to buy or not buy....the freedom to shop wherever he got what he wanted...

are you saying a shop keeper must supply whatever any customer demanded...?

I'm saying if the shopkeeper is in business to serve the public he should serve the public. When he put's that open for business sign up, he should not be able to pick his customers based on race, sex, ethnic origins, or sexual preference.

The shopkeeper is in business to serve whomever he wants to server. Your theory that you get to determine who he serves only shows that you are statist to the bone. Why shouldn't he be able to pick his customers based on any criteria he chooses?

First of all it's illegal. The 1964 Civil Rights act makes it illegal to discriminate based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. Additionally it's against federal law to discriminate against those with disabilities. In 20 states and a number of municipalities, it's illegal to discriminate based sexual preference.

From a philosophical point, people should only be judged on their actions, not on any immutable characteristics. To pre-judge someone is bad and unfair. Denial of services creates a system of 2nd class citizens where people are judged not by their individual actions but by perceptions based on stereotypes and personal prejudices. Class discrimination is just plain wrong.

The problem is really with the idea that government should have any say in how we judge each other in the context of voluntary interactions. People have different values, and that's ok. As long as they're not hurting anyone else, they shouldn't be compelled to serve others against their will.

But it is hurting someone. If you go to the best baker in town for your wedding cake and you are refused service, you have to settle for second best. If there are only two really professional wedding photographers in your town and you're turned down, then you settle for seconds. If you walk into a restaurant, you may be asked to leave or you may be denied a room at the only hotel with a vacancy because they don't take gay couples. Regardless of the fact that you may be a law abiding citizen who does more for the community than most people, you are treated as a second citizen. That's not right or fair.

And this is the debate we should be having. I think it's high time we flatly rejected the idea that not helping someone is the equivalent of harming them. I any case, it's not the kind of harm we need government to protect us from. This invites government to get involved in every single interaction we have with other people. In my view, as long as those interactions are voluntary, and no coercion or fraud is involved, government has no business intervening.

 

[Seawytch]

Pretty sure the intent of the tasting was to order a real wedding cake.

why would you need a real wedding cake at a pretend wedding?......

It's not a pretend wedding. Same-sex couple really do get Civilly Married in this country and have been starting with the first state in 2004.


>>>>

so you pretend......

Not a "pretend", they are in fact legally valid Civil Marriages.


>>>>

you just keep on pretending that.......it will make you feel better.....just like when you pretend killing unborn children isn't really killing children.........

See, that's the thing though...we KNOW our marriages are legal and in all 50 states now. You pretending that gays aren't civilly married is to make YOU feel better, but it is you who is pretending.