Only a referendum can pave a way for real elections in America

[frigidweirdo]

In "real" elections, the GOP wouldn't have a chance.

Correct, neither the democrats as the poll in my video clearly indicates.

Well if you look at the UK where there is FPTP or basically a similar system for voting in MPs to Congressmen and woman, it is a three party system.

Where PR happens, in EU elections, UKIP do much better than in FPTP where they lose a lot of supporters. This is in part because people don't take EU elections seriously and will vote anyone, but it's also because they vote tactically, and not based on preference.

However in Germany, a country with PR/FPTP mix, where PR decides the make up of parliament, more or less, there are usually about 4 or 5 parties, with two left and two right wing parties who often form either a right or left wing coalition that involves dialogue in politics, as opposed to what happens in congress, which is just a massive mess.

 

[pvsi]

In "real" elections, the GOP wouldn't have a chance.

Correct, neither the democrats as the poll in my video clearly indicates.

Well if you look at the UK where there is FPTP or basically a similar system for voting in MPs to Congressmen and woman, it is a three party system.

Where PR happens, in EU elections, UKIP do much better than in FPTP where they lose a lot of supporters. This is in part because people don't take EU elections seriously and will vote anyone, but it's also because they vote tactically, and not based on preference.

However in Germany, a country with PR/FPTP mix, where PR decides the make up of parliament, more or less, there are usually about 4 or 5 parties, with two left and two right wing parties who often form either a right or left wing coalition that involves dialogue in politics, as opposed to what happens in congress, which is just a massive mess.

There can be 50 political parties in power, and as you say, it will be "just a massive mess" - the idea is to elect not necessarily a new party or politicians, but to give voice to the voters instead of just an option to vote for one of the establishment's pre selected nominees.

 

[frigidweirdo]

There is no political mechanism for a National Referendum. Too much Democracy for the Founding Pappa's.

At the time referenda weren't something that happened. It was too far ahead even for the Founding Fathers.

 

[buckeye45_73]

Dear Libertarians and other third and independent partiers, do not expect me to vote in any establishment's hosted elections again - if you are SERIOUS about winning elections, let us join together to host a referendum on a despot US government, because like most Americans, in 2000 I was swindled into voting for a war criminal, in 2004 I was swindled into voting for another criminal, and I'm done voting in their elections. Referendum will pave the way for REAL elections.

Blaming society of "stupid voters" is very low, it's like blaming a woman who is being raped that she is a whore who hangs around the bad bunch of people instead of helping her. America is being raped as a nation, while political experts on TV and on these forums alike (most of whom profit or seek to profit from politics in one way or another) will criticize the government to gain your credibility while DEFENDING the system, and ridiculing people who post the truth.

Liberating Humanity - Message to Libertarians/Election Fraud - YouTube

Sounds nice, but i dont think it will change anything and a judge would throw it out anyway

 

[frigidweirdo]

There can be 50 political parties in power, and as you say, it will be "just a massive mess" - the idea is to elect not necessarily a new party or politicians, but to give voice to the voters instead of just an option to vote for one of the establishment's pre selected nominees.

The Weimar Republic was a mess, but that's because they hadn't figured out you need a cut off point. Most PR countries have a 5% cut off point, you get below this, you don't get in.
Where Germany is great is, if you have say, on constituency in Berlin that loves the "I've got a Doggy Partei" then they can all vote for this party, and if they win the FPTP they get a seat, even if they're 0.1% on the national scale because they didn't stand anywhere else.

So you can get representation on the local level which is important, and you get the wish of the people, more or less (it does get a little distorted at time).

German federal election, 2013 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For example the CDU (conservatives) got 34.1% of the PR votes. They got 37.2% of the FPTP constituency votes. You can see how people vote differently even within the same election. However they got 40.5% of the seats.

The SPD (Liberals) got 25.7% of the PR and 29.4% of the constituency votes, and had 30.5% of the seats in parliament.

Five parties got in (though one is basically the CDU in Bavaria) to parliament, quite a few parties didn't make it, like the FPD which usually allies with the CDU/CSU.

The higher percentage of seats to votes is because a lot of smaller parties don't make it into power. Two parties got 4.8 and 4.7 percent respectively, which is quite close to the cut off point, but it's there none the less.

In the EU elections, there is PR done regionally. So the UK has different regions within the UK that all vote PR. This helps with regionalism all around Europe that the US doesn't have so much, but it would be better than the current situation, if say the North East of the US, the Deep South, the Mid West etc etc had PR within their region.

But what you see in these places is CHOICE that you don't get in the US, even in the UK with FPTP there is slightly more choice, but still people in safe seats feel cheated of their vote.

Yes, it creates more parties, which is good for more of a voice. The fact that smaller countries have more parties, when the US has 300 million and it's impossible to believe there are only a few ideas to make 2 parties.

 

[occupied]

not quite true. you're correct in the fact government will never agree to release it's grip on power. an Article V convention is the constitutional way to go. congress has no choice when it is called. it's the only LEGAL method to force the will of the people on the government.

The people rarely have a good idea what their will is. All too often what any given group think they want is the result of PR campaigns funded by special interests. We are already giving the petroleum industry, for example, far too much attention and free money because they spend massively to make their narrow issues into mainstream concerns. I see no solution in our mass media world.

The people and their anti establishment movements are being constantly derailed, but they all know very well what they want from government - JUSTICE: that includes welfare moms who know that in today's real world, they can not grow a garden or pay their bills without government assistance or on McDonalds salary. That includes millionaires who want to be sure that they are not robed, and so on.

Anti-establishment movements screw themselves by letting crazy zealots near the microphone, you know, people like you. I admire the zeal but you have too much crazy mixed in with it.

 

[pvsi]

The people rarely have a good idea what their will is. All too often what any given group think they want is the result of PR campaigns funded by special interests. We are already giving the petroleum industry, for example, far too much attention and free money because they spend massively to make their narrow issues into mainstream concerns. I see no solution in our mass media world.

The people and their anti establishment movements are being constantly derailed, but they all know very well what they want from government - JUSTICE: that includes welfare moms who know that in today's real world, they can not grow a garden or pay their bills without government assistance or on McDonalds salary. That includes millionaires who want to be sure that they are not robed, and so on.

Anti-establishment movements screw themselves by letting crazy zealots near the microphone, you know, people like you. I admire the zeal but you have too much crazy mixed in with it.

Funny I thought I was the most normal, maybe you can give me a precise example of crazy, unless by crazy you mean unaccepted or unpopular in a society?

 

[whitehall]

Dear Libertarians and other third and independent partiers, do not expect me to vote in any establishment's hosted elections again - if you are SERIOUS about winning elections, let us join together to host a referendum on a despot US government, because like most Americans, in 2000 I was swindled into voting for a war criminal, in 2004 I was swindled into voting for another criminal, and I'm done voting in their elections. Referendum will pave the way for REAL elections.

Blaming society of "stupid voters" is very low, it's like blaming a woman who is being raped that she is a whore who hangs around the bad bunch of people instead of helping her. America is being raped as a nation, while political experts on TV and on these forums alike (most of whom profit or seek to profit from politics in one way or another) will criticize the government to gain your credibility while DEFENDING the system, and ridiculing people who post the truth.

Liberating Humanity - Message to Libertarians/Election Fraud - YouTube

Maybe you have it backwards or you are just a knee jerk victim of pop-culture. In 2000 a V.P. in a war criminal administration ran against George W. Bush. Clinton and Gore bombed a defenseless country without permission from congress. Bush had congressional approval for Iraq and Afghanistan but the democrat traitors in congress undermined the Military mission. Join the Tea Party if you want to make the Republican party more responsive or join CUSA if you want democrats to drift further left or join the Libertarians if you think marijuana is the most important issue but quit freaking whining.

 

[OKTexas]

There is NO LEGAL WAY to make a referendum federal vote.

Good idea though.

But it will take a constitutional amendment to make this idea work.

And do you think CONGRESS is going to share its power with THE PEOPLE?

Not likely

not quite true. you're correct in the fact government will never agree to release it's grip on power. an Article V convention is the constitutional way to go. congress has no choice when it is called. it's the only LEGAL method to force the will of the people on the government.

The people rarely have a good idea what their will is. All too often what any given group think they want is the result of PR campaigns funded by special interests. We are already giving the petroleum industry, for example, far too much attention and free money because they spend massively to make their narrow issues into mainstream concerns. I see no solution in our mass media world.

The petroleum industry gets nothing other industries get, but hey, carry on with the propaganda.

 

[occupied]

The people and their anti establishment movements are being constantly derailed, but they all know very well what they want from government - JUSTICE: that includes welfare moms who know that in today's real world, they can not grow a garden or pay their bills without government assistance or on McDonalds salary. That includes millionaires who want to be sure that they are not robed, and so on.

Anti-establishment movements screw themselves by letting crazy zealots near the microphone, you know, people like you. I admire the zeal but you have too much crazy mixed in with it.

Funny I thought I was the most normal, maybe you can give me a precise example of crazy, unless by crazy you mean unaccepted or unpopular in a society?

You project your beliefs on to the public at large while apparently having little idea of what people are actually like. Politics is about people and the search for consensus, so far you are just not putting things in a way that would make your average yokel stand and nod unthinkingly. Rather than just speaking the language of populism, learn what it means and how to use it effectively for that alone is the difference between success and failure in politics on any scale.

 

[occupied]

not quite true. you're correct in the fact government will never agree to release it's grip on power. an Article V convention is the constitutional way to go. congress has no choice when it is called. it's the only LEGAL method to force the will of the people on the government.

The people rarely have a good idea what their will is. All too often what any given group think they want is the result of PR campaigns funded by special interests. We are already giving the petroleum industry, for example, far too much attention and free money because they spend massively to make their narrow issues into mainstream concerns. I see no solution in our mass media world.

The petroleum industry gets nothing other industries get, but hey, carry on with the propaganda.

What a cryptic phrase. Keep fighting for that Keystone pipeline though.

 

[pvsi]

Dear Libertarians and other third and independent partiers, do not expect me to vote in any establishment's hosted elections again - if you are SERIOUS about winning elections, let us join together to host a referendum on a despot US government, because like most Americans, in 2000 I was swindled into voting for a war criminal, in 2004 I was swindled into voting for another criminal, and I'm done voting in their elections. Referendum will pave the way for REAL elections.

Blaming society of "stupid voters" is very low, it's like blaming a woman who is being raped that she is a whore who hangs around the bad bunch of people instead of helping her. America is being raped as a nation, while political experts on TV and on these forums alike (most of whom profit or seek to profit from politics in one way or another) will criticize the government to gain your credibility while DEFENDING the system, and ridiculing people who post the truth.

Liberating Humanity - Message to Libertarians/Election Fraud - YouTube

Maybe you have it backwards or you are just a knee jerk victim of pop-culture. In 2000 a V.P. in a war criminal administration ran against George W. Bush. Clinton and Gore bombed a defenseless country without permission from congress. Bush had congressional approval for Iraq and Afghanistan but the democrat traitors in congress undermined the Military mission. Join the Tea Party if you want to make the Republican party more responsive or join CUSA if you want democrats to drift further left or join the Libertarians if you think marijuana is the most important issue but quit freaking whining.

One would have to be pretty dull not to connect that the reason I stated that I voted for Bush was in 2000 was precisely because he ran as an anti war candidate because I was fed up with war mongering of the previous administration, but what is funny is that at the same time you are trying to sound smart.

 

[pvsi]

Anti-establishment movements screw themselves by letting crazy zealots near the microphone, you know, people like you. I admire the zeal but you have too much crazy mixed in with it.

Funny I thought I was the most normal, maybe you can give me a precise example of crazy, unless by crazy you mean unaccepted or unpopular in a society?

You project your beliefs on to the public at large while apparently having little idea of what people are actually like. Politics is about people and the search for consensus, so far you are just not putting things in a way that would make your average yokel stand and nod unthinkingly. Rather than just speaking the language of populism, learn what it means and how to use it effectively for that alone is the difference between success and failure in politics on any scale.

Well thank you for the kind advice occupied, but my belief in populism is at the core of my soul: you see, I am not buying into this whole notion created by the political pundits on the establishment media that masses of people are the ones who are electing all the stupid leaders today, I am convinced that they are merely manipulated against their will, and that once a real leader emerges, the masses will stand firmly behind that leader

 

[whitehall]

Dear Libertarians and other third and independent partiers, do not expect me to vote in any establishment's hosted elections again - if you are SERIOUS about winning elections, let us join together to host a referendum on a despot US government, because like most Americans, in 2000 I was swindled into voting for a war criminal, in 2004 I was swindled into voting for another criminal, and I'm done voting in their elections. Referendum will pave the way for REAL elections.

Blaming society of "stupid voters" is very low, it's like blaming a woman who is being raped that she is a whore who hangs around the bad bunch of people instead of helping her. America is being raped as a nation, while political experts on TV and on these forums alike (most of whom profit or seek to profit from politics in one way or another) will criticize the government to gain your credibility while DEFENDING the system, and ridiculing people who post the truth.

Liberating Humanity - Message to Libertarians/Election Fraud - YouTube

Maybe you have it backwards or you are just a knee jerk victim of pop-culture. In 2000 a V.P. in a war criminal administration ran against George W. Bush. Clinton and Gore bombed a defenseless country without permission from congress. Bush had congressional approval for Iraq and Afghanistan but the democrat traitors in congress undermined the Military mission. Join the Tea Party if you want to make the Republican party more responsive or join CUSA if you want democrats to drift further left or join the Libertarians if you think marijuana is the most important issue but quit freaking whining.

One would have to be pretty dull not to connect that the reason I stated that I voted for Bush was in 2000 was precisely because he ran as an anti war candidate because I was fed up with war mongering of the previous administration, but what is funny is that at the same time you are trying to sound smart.

I don't recall Bush being an anti-war candidate. America was attacked on 9/11/2001 and as many people died as "the day of infamy" at Pearl Harbor but nobody ever called FDR a "war monger" although he lost an entire army four months into WW2 through negligence and ultimately ten times mor American Troops were lost through accidents in WW2 than the entire Iraq/Afghanistan conflict. If you want to change things in the political process join the Tea Party if you are a republican and CUSA if you are a democrat or become a useless pot head libertarian.

 

[OKTexas]

The people rarely have a good idea what their will is. All too often what any given group think they want is the result of PR campaigns funded by special interests. We are already giving the petroleum industry, for example, far too much attention and free money because they spend massively to make their narrow issues into mainstream concerns. I see no solution in our mass media world.

The petroleum industry gets nothing other industries get, but hey, carry on with the propaganda.

What a cryptic phrase. Keep fighting for that Keystone pipeline though.

Should have read, The petroleum industry gets nothing other industries don't get, but hey, carry on with the propaganda. Keystone will happen, it's just a matter of time, BTW the southern leg is already operational.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Only a referendum can pave a way for real elections in America

Ignorant nonsense.

The United States is a Constitutional Republic, not a democracy, where referenda are appropriately and thankfully un-Constitutional.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Dear Libertarians and other third and independent partiers, do not expect me to vote in any establishment's hosted elections again - if you are SERIOUS about winning elections, let us join together to host a referendum on a despot US government, because like most Americans, in 2000 I was swindled into voting for a war criminal, in 2004 I was swindled into voting for another criminal, and I'm done voting in their elections. Referendum will pave the way for REAL elections.

Blaming society of "stupid voters" is very low, it's like blaming a woman who is being raped that she is a whore who hangs around the bad bunch of people instead of helping her. America is being raped as a nation, while political experts on TV and on these forums alike (most of whom profit or seek to profit from politics in one way or another) will criticize the government to gain your credibility while DEFENDING the system, and ridiculing people who post the truth.

Liberating Humanity - Message to Libertarians/Election Fraud - YouTube

Maybe you have it backwards or you are just a knee jerk victim of pop-culture. In 2000 a V.P. in a war criminal administration ran against George W. Bush. Clinton and Gore bombed a defenseless country without permission from congress. Bush had congressional approval for Iraq and Afghanistan but the democrat traitors in congress undermined the Military mission. Join the Tea Party if you want to make the Republican party more responsive or join CUSA if you want democrats to drift further left or join the Libertarians if you think marijuana is the most important issue but quit freaking whining.

One would have to be pretty dull not to connect that the reason I stated that I voted for Bush was in 2000 was precisely because he ran as an anti war candidate because I was fed up with war mongering of the previous administration, but what is funny is that at the same time you are trying to sound smart.

And with GWB you got not one but two illegal wars.

 

[OKTexas]

Maybe you have it backwards or you are just a knee jerk victim of pop-culture. In 2000 a V.P. in a war criminal administration ran against George W. Bush. Clinton and Gore bombed a defenseless country without permission from congress. Bush had congressional approval for Iraq and Afghanistan but the democrat traitors in congress undermined the Military mission. Join the Tea Party if you want to make the Republican party more responsive or join CUSA if you want democrats to drift further left or join the Libertarians if you think marijuana is the most important issue but quit freaking whining.

One would have to be pretty dull not to connect that the reason I stated that I voted for Bush was in 2000 was precisely because he ran as an anti war candidate because I was fed up with war mongering of the previous administration, but what is funny is that at the same time you are trying to sound smart.

And with GWB you got not one but two illegal wars.

Damn, you say something good and turn around and lie your ass off, it must be really scary in your head. Bush had congressional approval for what he did, that is all the law requires, period. I don't want to hear a damned word about lies either, when you defend the most prolific lier in our history.

 

[occupied]

Funny I thought I was the most normal, maybe you can give me a precise example of crazy, unless by crazy you mean unaccepted or unpopular in a society?

You project your beliefs on to the public at large while apparently having little idea of what people are actually like. Politics is about people and the search for consensus, so far you are just not putting things in a way that would make your average yokel stand and nod unthinkingly. Rather than just speaking the language of populism, learn what it means and how to use it effectively for that alone is the difference between success and failure in politics on any scale.

Well thank you for the kind advice occupied, but my belief in populism is at the core of my soul: you see, I am not buying into this whole notion created by the political pundits on the establishment media that masses of people are the ones who are electing all the stupid leaders today, I am convinced that they are merely manipulated against their will, and that once a real leader emerges, the masses will stand firmly behind that leader

Two things. Have you ever considered that people are manipulated with their full consent?

Also, the idea of a grand leader with the vast majority of America standing behind them should scare the fuck out of any freedom loving American, no bigger threat to freedom exists than a cult of personality.

 

[occupied]

The petroleum industry gets nothing other industries get, but hey, carry on with the propaganda.

What a cryptic phrase. Keep fighting for that Keystone pipeline though.

Should have read, The petroleum industry gets nothing other industries don't get, but hey, carry on with the propaganda. Keystone will happen, it's just a matter of time, BTW the southern leg is already operational.

I guess that part where I was critical of narrow industry issues becoming mainstream issues through aggressive lobbying went right over your head.