On this day in 1943: Lt. Kennedy helps save the crew of PT-109

[Camp]

First of all nobody wants to second guess the heroism of WW2 Veterans or Veterans of any other conflict ....unless the heroism is the basis of a political career. Then it becomes a legitimate subject for dissection and discussion. After being busted out of a cushy job in Naval Intelligence for allegedly fraternizing with a female Nazi agent old Joe Kennedy pulled some strings and his son was reassigned to the PT Boats even though he suffered from a congenital painful back problem requiring constant medication. Apparently the young skipper ran a loose command. P.T. Boats were fast and maneuverable and built for quick hit and run attacks. While P.T. Boats suffered incredible casualties from daylight plane attack and gunfire JFK's boat was the only one to be run over by an enemy ship during the war while sitting idle in the shipping lanes in the middle of the night. The Navy wanted to Court Martial the young skipper for losing his boat until old Joe Kennedy pulled some more strings and hired a Hollywood script writer to romanticize the incident and publish it in some pop magazine and the Navy backed off.

Where does this story come from?

The truth is easy to find but you have to get beyond the media spin.

The truth is difficult to find in a military situation. Only a few might be around to verify or attest to the act. The military tries but its not like a baseball player where the acts have been visible to many for some time. Until we find a better method maybe it is still best for the military to be the judge and their award as the best evidence. It is a shame for a serviceman to commit a brave act and have it shot down later by politicians because the act threatens their political ambitions.

It wasn't the Military that promoted the myth of PT 109, it was old Joe Kennedy and his Hollywood connections and later the "Camelot" infatuated media.

There was no myth about PT 109. old Joe may have promoted the story, but his kid was stationed in a zone of heavy combat in a small boat whose task was to attack large ships. Lots of them were sunk and lots of their sailors were lost in the AO that the guys son was serving in. The boat was in fact rammed at night, probably by accident, by a Japanese ship. Two crew were killed immediately and Kennedy managed to keep the rest of the crew together and they swam to a small uninhabited island that had neither water or food. Kennedy decided to swim to another distant island for help across several miles of shark infested waters. His effort was successful and the crew was rescued.
What part of the short synopsis of that account is myth? Why shouldn't old Joe brag about his son John? He bragged about his oldest son too. Joe flew the required missions as a bomber pilot in Europe and could have come home but he volunteered for hazardous duty instead and was killed while flying an experimental bomber on a mission to bomb Germany. The guy had two of his four sons in dangerous combat duty.

 

[Syriusly]

Interesting article on PT's including 109.

Very dangerous service.

 

[westwall]

After a few months in the water there, the hulls were so covered in seaweed and barnacles, that the PT boats could only make a fraction of their top speed due to drag.

routine maintenance must have been unheard of back then

--LOL

Without a drydock there is no way to clean the hull.

indeed there certainly is

In a warzone With no support? Do tell.

it was in the water less then a year since it was built

and it was in port

at Tulagi at the end of April

when JFK took command

it had been under JFK barely more then a couple of months

Yeah? So? The hull would have been completely covered in 2 months. It actually hurts the boats to be in port. When they were out on operations is when the plant and barnacle growth was the least.

 

[westwall]

I still don't know how he got hit in the first place, but his actions in saving his crew were heroic

JFK barely recovered after the ordeal

After a few months in the water there, the hulls were so covered in seaweed and barnacles, that the PT boats could only make a fraction of their top speed due to drag.

routine maintenance must have been unheard of back then

--LOL

Without a drydock there is no way to clean the hull.

indeed there certainly is

Even the smallest PT Boat ports had maintenance capabilities. Tulagi and Rendova were not small Ports. Rendova had multiple side by side dry docks. I have seen video of the Rendova docks. Not sure about Tulagi, but since the docks were prefabed for on site assembly and portable there is no reason to think they would not have them there.

Yes, post Kennedy era they did indeed get those nice docks. I suggest you read about PT operations. At that early stage of the war they had enormous difficulties getting anything. Every account published by the PT sailors talks about it.

 

[Camp]

After a few months in the water there, the hulls were so covered in seaweed and barnacles, that the PT boats could only make a fraction of their top speed due to drag.

routine maintenance must have been unheard of back then

--LOL

Without a drydock there is no way to clean the hull.

indeed there certainly is

Even the smallest PT Boat ports had maintenance capabilities. Tulagi and Rendova were not small Ports. Rendova had multiple side by side dry docks. I have seen video of the Rendova docks. Not sure about Tulagi, but since the docks were prefabed for on site assembly and portable there is no reason to think they would not have them there.

Yes, post Kennedy era they did indeed get those nice docks. I suggest you read about PT operations. At that early stage of the war they had enormous difficulties getting anything. Every account published by the PT sailors talks about it.

They had dry docks when Kennedy posted and operated in his area of operations. In fact here is a video of a PT Boat being dry docked, worked on and put back to sea during the exact time Kennedy was as Tulagi. The video is of docks at Kona Kepa, but it certainly shows that the dry docks were being used at that time. The second video of of dry docks at Redova, but about a year after Kennedy was there. It is highly doubtful and hard to believe that the dry docks would not be there from the very beginning of the ports creation.

youtube.com/watch?v=e1p5n30rb5o

youtube.com/watch?v=uZPijlEGqEo

 

[Syriusly]

routine maintenance must have been unheard of back then

--LOL

Without a drydock there is no way to clean the hull.

indeed there certainly is

Even the smallest PT Boat ports had maintenance capabilities. Tulagi and Rendova were not small Ports. Rendova had multiple side by side dry docks. I have seen video of the Rendova docks. Not sure about Tulagi, but since the docks were prefabed for on site assembly and portable there is no reason to think they would not have them there.

Yes, post Kennedy era they did indeed get those nice docks. I suggest you read about PT operations. At that early stage of the war they had enormous difficulties getting anything. Every account published by the PT sailors talks about it.

They had dry docks when Kennedy posted and operated in his area of operations. In fact here is a video of a PT Boat being dry docked, worked on and put back to sea during the exact time Kennedy was as Tulagi. The video is of docks at Kona Kepa, but it certainly shows that the dry docks were being used at that time. The second video of of dry docks at Redova, but about a year after Kennedy was there. It is highly doubtful and hard to believe that the dry docks would not be there from the very beginning of the ports creation.

youtube.com/watch?v=e1p5n30rb5o

youtube.com/watch?v=uZPijlEGqEo

The link i posted mentioned PT109 being dry docked once before Kennedy assumed command, and a major maintenaince when he took command.

I haven't read anything regarding barnacles being a major issue for PT Boats.

The real issues with PT Boats were mechanical failures, dirty gas, running aground, and lack of radar- oh and crappy torpedoes.

 

[westwall]

Without a drydock there is no way to clean the hull.

indeed there certainly is

Even the smallest PT Boat ports had maintenance capabilities. Tulagi and Rendova were not small Ports. Rendova had multiple side by side dry docks. I have seen video of the Rendova docks. Not sure about Tulagi, but since the docks were prefabed for on site assembly and portable there is no reason to think they would not have them there.

Yes, post Kennedy era they did indeed get those nice docks. I suggest you read about PT operations. At that early stage of the war they had enormous difficulties getting anything. Every account published by the PT sailors talks about it.

They had dry docks when Kennedy posted and operated in his area of operations. In fact here is a video of a PT Boat being dry docked, worked on and put back to sea during the exact time Kennedy was as Tulagi. The video is of docks at Kona Kepa, but it certainly shows that the dry docks were being used at that time. The second video of of dry docks at Redova, but about a year after Kennedy was there. It is highly doubtful and hard to believe that the dry docks would not be there from the very beginning of the ports creation.

youtube.com/watch?v=e1p5n30rb5o

youtube.com/watch?v=uZPijlEGqEo

The link i posted mentioned PT109 being dry docked once before Kennedy assumed command, and a major maintenaince when he took command.

I haven't read anything regarding barnacles being a major issue for PT Boats.

The real issues with PT Boats were mechanical failures, dirty gas, running aground, and lack of radar- oh and crappy torpedoes.

Here's one of many.


PT 109 could accommodate a crew of 3 officers and 14 enlisted, with the typical crew size between 12 and 14. Fully loaded, PT-109 displaced 56 tons. The principal offensive weapon was her torpedoes. She was fitted with four 21-inch (53 cm) torpedo tubes containing Mark 8 torpedoes. They weighed 3,150 lb (1,429 kg) each, with 386-pound (180 kg) warheads and gave the tiny boats a punch at least theoretically effective even against armored ships. Their typical speed of 36 knots (67 km/h) was effective against shipping, but because of rapid marine growth buildup on their hulls in the South Pacific and austere maintenance facilities in forward areas, American PT boats ended up being slower than the top speed of the Japanese destroyers and cruisers they were tasked with targeting in the Solomons. Torpedoes were also useless against shallow-draft barges, which were their most common targets. With their machine guns and 20 mm cannon, the PT boats could not return the large-caliber gunfire carried by destroyers, which had a much longer effective range, though they were effective against aircraft and ground targets.


Motor Torpedo Boat PT-109 - Military Wiki

 

[Syriusly]

indeed there certainly is

Even the smallest PT Boat ports had maintenance capabilities. Tulagi and Rendova were not small Ports. Rendova had multiple side by side dry docks. I have seen video of the Rendova docks. Not sure about Tulagi, but since the docks were prefabed for on site assembly and portable there is no reason to think they would not have them there.

Yes, post Kennedy era they did indeed get those nice docks. I suggest you read about PT operations. At that early stage of the war they had enormous difficulties getting anything. Every account published by the PT sailors talks about it.

They had dry docks when Kennedy posted and operated in his area of operations. In fact here is a video of a PT Boat being dry docked, worked on and put back to sea during the exact time Kennedy was as Tulagi. The video is of docks at Kona Kepa, but it certainly shows that the dry docks were being used at that time. The second video of of dry docks at Redova, but about a year after Kennedy was there. It is highly doubtful and hard to believe that the dry docks would not be there from the very beginning of the ports creation.

youtube.com/watch?v=e1p5n30rb5o

youtube.com/watch?v=uZPijlEGqEo

The link i posted mentioned PT109 being dry docked once before Kennedy assumed command, and a major maintenaince when he took command.

I haven't read anything regarding barnacles being a major issue for PT Boats.

The real issues with PT Boats were mechanical failures, dirty gas, running aground, and lack of radar- oh and crappy torpedoes.

Here's one of many.


PT 109 could accommodate a crew of 3 officers and 14 enlisted, with the typical crew size between 12 and 14. Fully loaded, PT-109 displaced 56 tons. The principal offensive weapon was her torpedoes. She was fitted with four 21-inch (53 cm) torpedo tubes containing Mark 8 torpedoes. They weighed 3,150 lb (1,429 kg) each, with 386-pound (180 kg) warheads and gave the tiny boats a punch at least theoretically effective even against armored ships. Their typical speed of 36 knots (67 km/h) was effective against shipping, but because of rapid marine growth buildup on their hulls in the South Pacific and austere maintenance facilities in forward areas, American PT boats ended up being slower than the top speed of the Japanese destroyers and cruisers they were tasked with targeting in the Solomons. Torpedoes were also useless against shallow-draft barges, which were their most common targets. With their machine guns and 20 mm cannon, the PT boats could not return the large-caliber gunfire carried by destroyers, which had a much longer effective range, though they were effective against aircraft and ground targets.


Motor Torpedo Boat PT-109 - Military Wiki

Okay- here is an interesting recollection from a PT Boat Vet

http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?fid=102&cid=101&tid=1532&pg=130&sc=20&x=0

 

[whitehall]

Bizarre, how any can question the heroism of Kennedy, McCain, Kerry, Dole.

What part of "he was in a tiny PT boat that was run over by a Jap destroyer during WW2 in the slot in the Solomons" sounds like a cakewalk? This is the exact same spot the Black Sheep Squadron fought in and this entire area was hotly contested for more than two years.

Honestly, wtf has con media done to people's minds.

Come on folks. P.T. boats are made for speed and agility and not a single one was ever run over by a big hulking destroyer that needs three football fields to make a turn. Therefore JFK's Boat was asleep in the shipping channels without a soul awake until the freaking ship was on them and it was too late.

 

[Syriusly]

Bizarre, how any can question the heroism of Kennedy, McCain, Kerry, Dole.

What part of "he was in a tiny PT boat that was run over by a Jap destroyer during WW2 in the slot in the Solomons" sounds like a cakewalk? This is the exact same spot the Black Sheep Squadron fought in and this entire area was hotly contested for more than two years.

Honestly, wtf has con media done to people's minds.

Come on folks. P.T. boats are made for speed and agility and not a single one was ever run over by a big hulking destroyer that needs three football fields to make a turn. Therefore JFK's Boat was asleep in the shipping channels without a soul awake until the freaking ship was on them and it was too late.

Amazing how you were there and survived to tell us the true account of what happened........

 

[Syriusly]

Bizarre, how any can question the heroism of Kennedy, McCain, Kerry, Dole.

What part of "he was in a tiny PT boat that was run over by a Jap destroyer during WW2 in the slot in the Solomons" sounds like a cakewalk? This is the exact same spot the Black Sheep Squadron fought in and this entire area was hotly contested for more than two years.

Honestly, wtf has con media done to people's minds.

Come on folks. P.T. boats are made for speed and agility and not a single one was ever run over by a big hulking destroyer that needs three football fields to make a turn. Therefore JFK's Boat was asleep in the shipping channels without a soul awake until the freaking ship was on them and it was too late.

HyperWar At Close Quarters Part III

To the north, PT 109 (Lieutenant Kennedy) was leading PT's 162 and 169 on a slow southward sweep. A destroyer suddenly knifed out of the darkness off PT 109's bow. Before Kennedy could turn his boat the destroyer rammed it at full speed. Gasoline burst into flames immediately. This was the flash which silhouetted a destroyer for the 105. Lowrey, in the 162, saw the destroyer as it bore down on Kennedy's boat. His torpedoes would not fire. He finally swerved off to the southwest to avoid collision with the destroyer, then only 100 yards away. Potter, in the 169, fired two torpedoes, but by then the destroyer was only 150 yards away, and the torpedoes probably would not have armed themselves in that distance even if they had hit. The destroyer opened fire on the 169, which zigzagged to the south behind smoke puffs. A few minutes later Potter saw the wake of another destroyer heading toward him from the south. He swung left and fired his last two torpedoes. The destroyer also turned left, just in time, Potter thought, for the torpedo to hit its bow and explode. The 169 continued to zigzag south, laying smoke.

PT 157, farther north than the other boats, fired two torpedoes at a ship close to the Kolombangara coast without observed results.

This was perhaps the most confused and least effectively executed action the PT's had been in. Eight PT's fired 30 torpedoes. The only confirmed results are the loss of PT 109 and damage to the Japanese destroyer Amagiri. The Amagiri was not hit by a torpedo, but vibrated so badly after ramming the 109 that she was unable to proceed at high speed. The chief fault of the PT's was that they didn't pass the word. Each boat attacked independently, leaving the others to discover the enemy for themselves.

"The time was about 0230. Ensign Ross was on the bow as lookout; Ensign Thom was standing beside the cockpit; Lieutenant Kennedy was at the wheel, and with him in the cockpit was Maguire, his radioman; Marney was in the forward turret; Mauer, the quartermaster was standing beside Ensign Thom; Albert was in the after turret; and McMahon was in the engine room. The location of other members of the crew upon the boat is unknown. Suddenly a dark shape loomed up on PT 109's starboard bow 200-300 yards distance. At first this shape was believed to be other PT's. However, it was soon seen to be a destroyer identified as the Ribiki group of the Fubuki class9 bearing down on PT 109 at high speed. The 109 had started to turn to starboard preparatory to firing torpedoes. However, when PT 109 had scarcely turned 30°, the destroyer rammed the PT, striking it forward of the forward starboard tube and shearing off the starboard side of the boat aft, including the starboard engine. The destroyer traveling at an estimated speed of 40 knots neither slowed nor fired as she split the PT, leaving part of the PT on one side and part on the other. Scarcely 10 seconds elapsed between time of sighting and the crash

 

[jon_berzerk]

routine maintenance must have been unheard of back then

--LOL

Without a drydock there is no way to clean the hull.

indeed there certainly is

In a warzone With no support? Do tell.

it was in the water less then a year since it was built

and it was in port

at Tulagi at the end of April

when JFK took command

it had been under JFK barely more then a couple of months

Yeah? So? The hull would have been completely covered in 2 months. It actually hurts the boats to be in port. When they were out on operations is when the plant and barnacle growth was the least.

--LOL

so being on patrol the barnacles would not have grown

we have gone full circle

--LOL

 

[jon_berzerk]

routine maintenance must have been unheard of back then

--LOL

Without a drydock there is no way to clean the hull.

indeed there certainly is

Even the smallest PT Boat ports had maintenance capabilities. Tulagi and Rendova were not small Ports. Rendova had multiple side by side dry docks. I have seen video of the Rendova docks. Not sure about Tulagi, but since the docks were prefabed for on site assembly and portable there is no reason to think they would not have them there.

Yes, post Kennedy era they did indeed get those nice docks. I suggest you read about PT operations. At that early stage of the war they had enormous difficulties getting anything. Every account published by the PT sailors talks about it.

They had dry docks when Kennedy posted and operated in his area of operations. In fact here is a video of a PT Boat being dry docked, worked on and put back to sea during the exact time Kennedy was as Tulagi. The video is of docks at Kona Kepa, but it certainly shows that the dry docks were being used at that time. The second video of of dry docks at Redova, but about a year after Kennedy was there. It is highly doubtful and hard to believe that the dry docks would not be there from the very beginning of the ports creation.

youtube.com/watch?v=e1p5n30rb5o

youtube.com/watch?v=uZPijlEGqEo

just running around in circles

 

[jon_berzerk]

Without a drydock there is no way to clean the hull.

indeed there certainly is

Even the smallest PT Boat ports had maintenance capabilities. Tulagi and Rendova were not small Ports. Rendova had multiple side by side dry docks. I have seen video of the Rendova docks. Not sure about Tulagi, but since the docks were prefabed for on site assembly and portable there is no reason to think they would not have them there.

Yes, post Kennedy era they did indeed get those nice docks. I suggest you read about PT operations. At that early stage of the war they had enormous difficulties getting anything. Every account published by the PT sailors talks about it.

They had dry docks when Kennedy posted and operated in his area of operations. In fact here is a video of a PT Boat being dry docked, worked on and put back to sea during the exact time Kennedy was as Tulagi. The video is of docks at Kona Kepa, but it certainly shows that the dry docks were being used at that time. The second video of of dry docks at Redova, but about a year after Kennedy was there. It is highly doubtful and hard to believe that the dry docks would not be there from the very beginning of the ports creation.

youtube.com/watch?v=e1p5n30rb5o

youtube.com/watch?v=uZPijlEGqEo

The link i posted mentioned PT109 being dry docked once before Kennedy assumed command, and a major maintenaince when he took command.

I haven't read anything regarding barnacles being a major issue for PT Boats.

The real issues with PT Boats were mechanical failures, dirty gas, running aground, and lack of radar- oh and crappy torpedoes.

I haven't read anything regarding barnacles being a major issue for PT Boats.

i have not either

 

[Camp]

indeed there certainly is

Even the smallest PT Boat ports had maintenance capabilities. Tulagi and Rendova were not small Ports. Rendova had multiple side by side dry docks. I have seen video of the Rendova docks. Not sure about Tulagi, but since the docks were prefabed for on site assembly and portable there is no reason to think they would not have them there.

Yes, post Kennedy era they did indeed get those nice docks. I suggest you read about PT operations. At that early stage of the war they had enormous difficulties getting anything. Every account published by the PT sailors talks about it.

They had dry docks when Kennedy posted and operated in his area of operations. In fact here is a video of a PT Boat being dry docked, worked on and put back to sea during the exact time Kennedy was as Tulagi. The video is of docks at Kona Kepa, but it certainly shows that the dry docks were being used at that time. The second video of of dry docks at Redova, but about a year after Kennedy was there. It is highly doubtful and hard to believe that the dry docks would not be there from the very beginning of the ports creation.

youtube.com/watch?v=e1p5n30rb5o

youtube.com/watch?v=uZPijlEGqEo

The link i posted mentioned PT109 being dry docked once before Kennedy assumed command, and a major maintenaince when he took command.

I haven't read anything regarding barnacles being a major issue for PT Boats.

The real issues with PT Boats were mechanical failures, dirty gas, running aground, and lack of radar- oh and crappy torpedoes.

I haven't read anything regarding barnacles being a major issue for PT Boats.

i have not either

Well, PT Boats were wooden hulled craft and wooden hulled craft can grow "beards". Beards are an accumulation of barnacles that need to be removed or they will in fact slow down, or "weigh down" a wooden hulled boat. The barnacles can also snag vegetation like sea weed. There are various metal based paints that help reduce the problem, but eventually the beard has to be removed. Perhaps this problem was prevalent and serious in the south pacific. So far we have one Wikipedia link that mentions it.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Even the smallest PT Boat ports had maintenance capabilities. Tulagi and Rendova were not small Ports. Rendova had multiple side by side dry docks. I have seen video of the Rendova docks. Not sure about Tulagi, but since the docks were prefabed for on site assembly and portable there is no reason to think they would not have them there.

Yes, post Kennedy era they did indeed get those nice docks. I suggest you read about PT operations. At that early stage of the war they had enormous difficulties getting anything. Every account published by the PT sailors talks about it.

They had dry docks when Kennedy posted and operated in his area of operations. In fact here is a video of a PT Boat being dry docked, worked on and put back to sea during the exact time Kennedy was as Tulagi. The video is of docks at Kona Kepa, but it certainly shows that the dry docks were being used at that time. The second video of of dry docks at Redova, but about a year after Kennedy was there. It is highly doubtful and hard to believe that the dry docks would not be there from the very beginning of the ports creation.

youtube.com/watch?v=e1p5n30rb5o

youtube.com/watch?v=uZPijlEGqEo

The link i posted mentioned PT109 being dry docked once before Kennedy assumed command, and a major maintenaince when he took command.

I haven't read anything regarding barnacles being a major issue for PT Boats.

The real issues with PT Boats were mechanical failures, dirty gas, running aground, and lack of radar- oh and crappy torpedoes.

I haven't read anything regarding barnacles being a major issue for PT Boats.

i have not either

Well, PT Boats were wooden hulled craft and wooden hulled craft can grow "beards". Beards are an accumulation of barnacles that need to be removed or they will in fact slow down, or "weigh down" a wooden hulled boat. The barnacles can also snag vegetation like sea weed. There are various metal based paints that help reduce the problem, but eventually the beard has to be removed. Perhaps this problem was prevalent and serious in the south pacific. So far we have one Wikipedia link that mentions it.

perhaps however wiki doesnt carry much weight

 

[Liminal]

How does a PT boat get rammed by a destroyer? PT boat, light and maneuverable, destroyer, not so much.

Fucking stupid question. They were operating at night in a narrow channel, and were not equipped with radar. Do you have any other completely stupid questions?

 

[Liminal]

Anyone know how many other PT boats were rammed during the war? And there were thousands......... Zero.

And? Your point Admiral?

 

[Freewill]

How does a PT boat get rammed by a destroyer? PT boat, light and maneuverable, destroyer, not so much.

Fucking stupid question. They were operating at night in a narrow channel, and were not equipped with radar. Do you have any other completely stupid questions?

So what you are saying is that in the dead of a moonless night they positioned themselves in a narrow shipping lane. Guess you are right it was a silly question. No wonder his was the only PT boat to be rammed. Sit in the dark, in a narrow channel with one of your engines off, smart real smart.

 

[Liminal]

How does a PT boat get rammed by a destroyer? PT boat, light and maneuverable, destroyer, not so much.

"
"PT-109 was ordered to continue patrolling the area in case the enemy ships returned. Around 2:00 a.m. on 2 August 1943, on a moonless night, Kennedy's boat was idling on one engine to avoid detection of her wake by Japanese aircraft when the crew realized they were in the path of the Japanese destroyer Amagiri, which was returning to Rabaul from Vila, Kolombangara, after offloading supplies and 900 soldiers. Amagiri was traveling at a relatively high speed of between 23 and 40 knots (43 and 74 km/h) in order to reach harbor by dawn, when Allied air patrols were likely to appear.

The crew of the PT-109 had less than ten seconds to get the engines up to speed, and were run down by the destroyer between Kolombangara and Ghizo Island."

Motor Torpedo Boat PT-109 - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Yeah, I read that after I posted. A Moonless night, how did they expect an airplane to see them? I guess the roar of a destroyer coming at high speed was drowned out by the one engine running with the silencers deployed.

You should really read a lot more before posting stupid innuendo.