on america's history with uncle joe

[Ringel05]

Wow.

Anyone else notice how the useful idiots act like Dracula bathing in Holy Water whenever we say anything disparaging about their Soviets?

I mean WOW!

Want to hear about the time Patton ordered 3 divisions to attack East when the Russians demanded that he turn over captured Germans equipment to them?

 

[Gadawg73]

Bullshit.

Patton for one wanted to beat the Soviets to Prague and Berlin and the Germans would have gladly helped him in that effort. But Ike was under orders from Stalin's favorite sock puppet, FDR, as to disposition of Europe; that is, Uncle Joe get a lot of the prime real estate. FDR was advised by Communist spies. Joe McCarthy told the embarrassing truth that US State was overrun with Communist spies. History bears out McCarthy.

In his journals and letter Patton calls WWII a huge strategic failure for the USA because it left "major European capitals in the hands of the descendants of Genghis Khan"

50 years later, thanks to Ronald Reagan, Eastern Europe broke the yoke of Communist oppression.

Patton was a great military leader. However, his combat losses at times were for meaningless territory at great loss. His ego put soldiers in the grave for no militaty reason at all many times.
McCarthy used the shotgun effect. Accuse EVERYONE and see what sticks. Roy Cohn was his assistant and accomplice at that along with Bobby Kennedy at times.
McCarthy could have cared less about the American doctrine of innocent until proven guilty. For every spy he may have revealed 1000 innocent people had their lives ruined.

McCarthy's "list" came from the FBI. About everyone he had on his list was proven to be Soviet Agents by Venona papers. He did not accuse for reasons of bringing them to justice, he did it to remove them from sensitive positions in government where they had great influence because of the spirit of the time; that the Soviet Union was a trusted ally. They had great affect on US govt. policy going into the “Cold War” before we were even aware of it’s beginning in approximately 43-44. In some cases it wasn't about their influence but that they had access to highly classified communications, like in a code-room for instance. He was forced to "name names" by his senate colleagues, but that was not his intention. He would've preferred to not have had to do that.

J. Edgar Hoover was notorious for his "lists".
Charlie Chaplin and Lena Horne had sensitive positions in government?
Sure, right.
What names did Joe name? I will wait until hell freezes over for your answer. Hint: He never gave ANY names. Why? Because there were NO names. It was all for show and you bought it hook,line and sinker.
McCarthy opened an investigation into the US Army with his bogus claims that they were infiltrated with communist spies. He started his investigation into the Army Signals Corp at Ft. Monmouth. Of course he did get some famous headlines with his bogus claims of Army researchers that were definitely communist according to him but reality once again set in on McCarthy and his fraudulent claims. As usual, this investigation, justlike ALL of his other witch hunts, ended with NO evidence and nothing came of his self proclaimed "investigations". McCarthy claimed General Zwecker, a combat hero from WWII was a commuinist.
Need more? Good god man, wake up.
Of course none of this matters to you. You do not require evidence. Innuendo, suspicions, rumor and gossip do it for you instead of facts.

 

[rightwinger]

Patton was a great military leader. However, his combat losses at times were for meaningless territory at great loss. His ego put soldiers in the grave for no militaty reason at all many times.
McCarthy used the shotgun effect. Accuse EVERYONE and see what sticks. Roy Cohn was his assistant and accomplice at that along with Bobby Kennedy at times.
McCarthy could have cared less about the American doctrine of innocent until proven guilty. For every spy he may have revealed 1000 innocent people had their lives ruined.

McCarthy's "list" came from the FBI. About everyone he had on his list was proven to be Soviet Agents by Venona papers. He did not accuse for reasons of bringing them to justice, he did it to remove them from sensitive positions in government where they had great influence because of the spirit of the time; that the Soviet Union was a trusted ally. They had great affect on US govt. policy going into the “Cold War” before we were even aware of it’s beginning in approximately 43-44. In some cases it wasn't about their influence but that they had access to highly classified communications, like in a code-room for instance. He was forced to "name names" by his senate colleagues, but that was not his intention. He would've preferred to not have had to do that.

J. Edgar Hoover was notorious for his "lists".
Charlie Chaplin and Lena Horne had sensitive positions in government?
Sure, right.
What names did Joe name? I will wait until hell freezes over for your answer. Hint: He never gave ANY names. Why? Because there were NO names. It was all for show and you bought it hook,line and sinker.
McCarthy opened an investigation into the US Army with his bogus claims that they were infiltrated with communist spies. He started his investigation into the Army Signals Corp at Ft. Monmouth. Of course he did get some famous headlines with his bogus claims of Army researchers that were definitely communist according to him but reality once again set in on McCarthy and his fraudulent claims. As usual, this investigation, justlike ALL of his other witch hunts, ended with NO evidence and nothing came of his self proclaimed "investigations". McCarthy claimed General Zwecker, a combat hero from WWII was a commuinist.
Need more? Good god man, wake up.
Of course none of this matters to you. You do not require evidence. Innuendo, suspicions, rumor and gossip do it for you instead of facts.

I have worked at Ft Monmouth for thirty years and have worked with some people who were present during the McCarthy scare. They said all of the engineers named had Jewish surnames and lost their security clearances.
Without a clearance...they were let go

 

[Gadawg73]

McCarthy's "list" came from the FBI. About everyone he had on his list was proven to be Soviet Agents by Venona papers. He did not accuse for reasons of bringing them to justice, he did it to remove them from sensitive positions in government where they had great influence because of the spirit of the time; that the Soviet Union was a trusted ally. They had great affect on US govt. policy going into the “Cold War” before we were even aware of it’s beginning in approximately 43-44. In some cases it wasn't about their influence but that they had access to highly classified communications, like in a code-room for instance. He was forced to "name names" by his senate colleagues, but that was not his intention. He would've preferred to not have had to do that.

J. Edgar Hoover was notorious for his "lists".
Charlie Chaplin and Lena Horne had sensitive positions in government?
Sure, right.
What names did Joe name? I will wait until hell freezes over for your answer. Hint: He never gave ANY names. Why? Because there were NO names. It was all for show and you bought it hook,line and sinker.
McCarthy opened an investigation into the US Army with his bogus claims that they were infiltrated with communist spies. He started his investigation into the Army Signals Corp at Ft. Monmouth. Of course he did get some famous headlines with his bogus claims of Army researchers that were definitely communist according to him but reality once again set in on McCarthy and his fraudulent claims. As usual, this investigation, justlike ALL of his other witch hunts, ended with NO evidence and nothing came of his self proclaimed "investigations". McCarthy claimed General Zwecker, a combat hero from WWII was a commuinist.
Need more? Good god man, wake up.
Of course none of this matters to you. You do not require evidence. Innuendo, suspicions, rumor and gossip do it for you instead of facts.

I have worked at Ft Monmouth for thirty years and have worked with some people who were present during the McCarthy scare. They said all of the engineers named had Jewish surnames and lost their security clearances.
Without a clearance...they were let go

Wait a dad gum minute right. Tweetybirdpolichic claims there is no evidence of that. She claims that no one lost their job or were ruined.
Anyone that does not know the Roy Cohn, Joe McCarthy, J. Edgar Hoover connection is a dam fool.

 

[American Horse]

Quote: Originally Posted by American Horse

McCarthy's "list" came from the FBI. About everyone he had on his list was proven to be Soviet Agents by Venona papers. He did not accuse for reasons of bringing them to justice, he did it to remove them from sensitive positions in government where they had great influence because of the spirit of the time; that the Soviet Union was a trusted ally. They had great affect on US govt. policy going into the “Cold War” before we were even aware of it’s beginning in approximately 43-44. In some cases it wasn't about their influence but that they had access to highly classified communications, like in a code-room for instance. He was forced to "name names" by his senate colleagues, but that was not his intention. He would've preferred to not have had to do that.

J. Edgar Hoover was notorious for his "lists".

Your do realize, I hope, that the FBI did then, and still does do background investigations for security clearances on people who work in sensitive posts. Back then as now field agents do those investigations, along with a background check (talk to neighbors for instance),, and a national agency check on people who are hired, or are prospective hires, by the government (including military personnel) who might handle classified material. In 1960 after I got my Secret Crypto Security clearance (to work in a “code room/communications center) my fellows and I would’ve been appalled at the lack of security that was common at Ft Monmouth, and Camp Kilmer. We took security seriously.

The fact is, McCarthy’s lists came from several sources:reports of the FBI, dossiers from counterintelligence archives, and sworn testimony, from credible witnesses.

Charlie Chaplin and Lena Horne had sensitive positions in government?
Sure, right.

McCarthy had nothing to do with those two, or any other of those who were blacklisted in Hollywood. Those two and any others who were blacklisted in the Hollywood Cinema Industry were not on any list published or submitted by Joe McCarthy. Proof of that is simple to see; please look at your earlier post where you brought up the HUAC in that regard. Indeed it was the House Un-American Activities Committee which considered the problem of Reds in Hollywood. McCarthy didn’t serve there because he was a Senator and HUAC is a committee of the house. This error on your part provides proof that you simply do no know or prudently consider the claims you are making.

And the Hollywood Ten happened before McCarthy. They were a group of Ten large film producers and magnates who were concerned about the image of Hollywood film industry. During the War Hollywood had been involved with patriotic and other public service productions. They are still easy to find. They were concerned, not only about their image, but being aware of the power of their art, didn’t want to see it debauched.

What names did Joe name? I will wait until hell freezes over for your answer. Hint: He never gave ANY names. Why? Because there were NO names. It was all for show and you bought it hook,line and sinker.

Here is an alphabetical list of ten McCarthy suspects, taken from his Senate speeches and/or hearings in which he figured:

Names: Solomon Adler
Cedric Belfrage
T.A. Bisson
V. Frank Coe
Lauchlin Currie
Harold Glasser
David Karr
Mary Jane Keeney
Leonard Mins
Franz Neumann….

I invite you to type any of those names next to the words “McCarthy hearings” to see their communist ties.

This is, to be sure, a heterogeneous group. While all of them came under McCarthy’s lens, they did so in different measures and different settings. Some were in the original bloc of cases he brought before the Senate and Tydings panel (Keeney, Neumann), some were otherwise named in public statements (Bisson, Karr), some later appeared before his subcommittee (Belfrage, Mins), and so on. However, all were McCarthy targets in one fashion or another, and thus per the standard teaching must have been mere innocent victims of his midcentury reign of terror.

Except, when the Venona file was published in 1995, all these McCarthy cases were right there in the decrypts, each named significantly in the Soviet cables. From these identifications (and collateral data from the Kremlin archives) it’s apparent that, rather than being blameless martyrs, all were indeed Communists, Soviet agents, or assets of the KGB, just as McCarthy had suggested and generally speaking even more so. they happen to show up in Venona, which though of great importance is but one subset of the huge database now available on such matters. If we look to other information sources--reports of the FBI, dossiers from counterintelligence archives, sworn testimony be credible witnesses--- it would be possible to identify twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, or more McCarthy targets in like manner.

McCarthy opened an investigation into the US Army with his bogus claims that they were infiltrated with communist spies. He started his investigation into the Army Signals Corp at Ft. Monmouth ...

Ft Monmouth was full of Red moles.
The base commander, General Lawton brought the situation there to the attention of McCarthy and was punished for exposing Communists; General Zwicker base commander of Camp Kilmer N.J. was rewarded for covering up for them.

Follow the below link to see the extent of the spy system at Ft. Monmouth, beginning with the Rosenbergs, but certainly not ending with them:

Click Here =>“….When Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were executed on June 19, 1953, the spy ring through which they committed espionage did not just go away [at Monmouth]…”

Of course he did get some famous headlines with his bogus claims of Army researchers that were definitely communist according to him but reality once again set in on McCarthy and his fraudulent claims.

It was a thankless task, but he tried his very best to do what he believed was needed to protect our national security in dangerous times. He never put himself forward as a prosecutor which is a part of the denunciation of McCarthy: that none of his suspects went to prison for their allegedly subversive doings. But of course McCarthy had neither the duty nor the power to put such people in prison so this is an obvious red herring dragged across the path to confuse the issue. His oft-stated and sanctioned by the law purpose was to get his suspects out of the federal government and its policy-making system; all the battles in which he was engaged revolved around this central purpose.

Fraudulent claims?
As a result of lax security, printing plates for (German) occupation currency, issued and redeemable by the United States were passed to Soviet control by members of the Treasury network: V. Frank Cole, Harold Glasser, Harry White, Sol Adler, Gregory Silvermaster, and others. In these hearings held by McCarthy Elizabeth Bentley testified that the handover of the currency plates was ordered by her former Soviet bosses, and that Red agents in Treasury followed through and got the job done.

Coe and Glasser were questioned about this and other postwar financial issues. Coe was in particular quizzed about a memo he wrote passing along a Soviet request for more dies to print the occupation money.

Did McCarthy make any mistakes? Don’t we all if we are doing anything? Problem is, the leftists who so virulently hate him wildly throw out bogus claims about his doings, like you just did, some of which can easily be debunked (2-above), but others like what you said about Him calling General Zwicker a communists, require more research, so that for most of us it’s simply easier for most of us to just quit and let it be.

(response continued in next post)

 

[American Horse]

As usual, this investigation, just like ALL of his other witch hunts, ended with NO evidence and nothing came of his self proclaimed "investigations". McCarthy claimed General Zwecker, a combat hero from WWII was a commuinist.

McCarthy never called him nor claimed Zwicker (base commander of Camp Kilmer, N.J.) was a communist.
Following are the events surrounding what actually did happen between McCarthy and Zwicker: Called by a staffer of McCarthy, Zwicker had volunteered that there were security problems at CKNJ, and confirmed that a dentist — Dr. Irving Peress — was among the several suspects stationed there, and was scheduled to receive an honorable discharge. The issue was lax security procedures, not about Peress per se. [Last I checked, subversives supposedly were not eligible for U.S. military service] Appearing before McCarthy’s committee, Peress took the Fifth Amendment when asked about Communist Party membership. He pleaded the Fifth Amendment when asked if he'd attempted to recruit any military personnel at Kilmer into the Communist Party, whether there had been Communist Party meetings in his home attended by one or more military personnel, whether he himself happened to be a member of the Communist cell at Camp Kilmer, and if he had organized a cell at the military base.

After Peress claimed the 5th in committee testimony, McCarthy fired off a letter to the Army — hand-delivered to the Pentagon — urging that the honorable discharge be canceled, and that Peress instead be turned over for court martial. As fate would have it, Secretary of Defense Stevens (note that JM went through proper channels) was out of town, so the letter fell instead into the hands of Army counselor John Adams.
About that situation, Adams says in his own memoirs that he decided, "In short, to hell with McCarthy," and he granted the discharge to Peress.

Obviously, this whitewash left Senator McCarthy more than a little indignant. So he dispatched his committee staffer James Juliana to Camp Kilmer to interview the general. Juliana came back with a report to the senator that Zwicker would be an informative and friendly witness — that he opposed giving Peress an honorable discharge — especially given that it was Zwicker who had put the McCarthy committee on Peress's case in the first place. And this happened after the general had gone through channels to protest Peress's previous quick promotions up to the rank of Major.

Zwicker was called before McCarthy’s Committee and the night before he received "a flying visit" from Army counsel Adams who specifically told him to back off. Adams acknowledged as much in his later book "Without Precedent," which was published in 1983.

It was at that hearing during which McCarthy angrily responded to Zwicker’s unexpected turn-about, which had resulted from Adams’ visit the night before, unbeknownst to McCarthy:

When Zwicker took the witness chair the next day, in response to McCarthy’s questioning about Peress’ honorable discharge, Zwicker hemmed and hawed as if he had become a totally different person. He verbally fenced with McCarthy, refusing to answer many questions, claimed he didn't know about Peress's Red connections, and even said he didn't know about the well-publicized fact that Peress had taken the Fifth Amendment earlier.

The cat-and-mouse game went on until finally McCarthy asked him if a hypothetical general who signed the order to grant a security risk an honorable discharge [Adams] should be kept in the military. Zwicker responded, "I do not think he should be removed from the military."

This is where, McCarthy finally "lost it," and fired a volley at the general that would haunt the senator in his upcoming battle to fend off attacks from his determined enemies. Said he, "Then, general, you should be removed from command," adding that any general willing "to protect another general who protected Communists is not fit to wear that uniform, General."

Was General Zwicker harmed by this criticism from McCarthy?

The investigation did not end there. The following year (1955), the committee — by then under Democrat control and chaired by Senator John McClellan (D-Ark.) pursued the case and referred Zwicker's testimony to the Justice Department for consideration of perjury charges. Eisenhower’s Justice Department took 19 months to respond and finally decide that the referral did not meet the "technical" requirements for a perjury indictment.

According to M Stanton Evans in his book Blacklisted by History on January 17, 1957, General Zwicker was nominated for promotion to full rank of temporary major general. At his confirmation hearing, the general was accompanied by Ike's new Army Secretary Wilber Bricker and "a full array of Pentagon brass."
The promotion was quickly approved by the US Senate.

Not bad for someone who had been a candidate for a perjury rap.
So McCarthy loses his temper while General Zwicker loses his integrity but gets promoted. Which is worse?

Need more? Good god man, wake up.
Of course none of this matters to you. You do not require evidence. Innuendo, suspicions, rumor and gossip do it for you instead of facts.

Good god man, it appears that you are describing yourself with these ad hominem attacks. Why does one commit so much and so dogmatically to popular wisdom? I think I understand, it's standard teaching, but here’s your chance, to be on the side of people who keep their minds open versus closed.

 

[PoliticalChic]

As usual, this investigation, just like ALL of his other witch hunts, ended with NO evidence and nothing came of his self proclaimed "investigations". McCarthy claimed General Zwecker, a combat hero from WWII was a commuinist.

McCarthy never called him nor claimed Zwicker (base commander of Camp Kilmer, N.J.) was a communist.
Following are the events surrounding what actually did happen between McCarthy and Zwicker: Called by a staffer of McCarthy, Zwicker had volunteered that there were security problems at CKNJ, and confirmed that a dentist — Dr. Irving Peress — was among the several suspects stationed there, and was scheduled to receive an honorable discharge. The issue was lax security procedures, not about Peress per se. [Last I checked, subversives supposedly were not eligible for U.S. military service] Appearing before McCarthy’s committee, Peress took the Fifth Amendment when asked about Communist Party membership. He pleaded the Fifth Amendment when asked if he'd attempted to recruit any military personnel at Kilmer into the Communist Party, whether there had been Communist Party meetings in his home attended by one or more military personnel, whether he himself happened to be a member of the Communist cell at Camp Kilmer, and if he had organized a cell at the military base.

After Peress claimed the 5th in committee testimony, McCarthy fired off a letter to the Army — hand-delivered to the Pentagon — urging that the honorable discharge be canceled, and that Peress instead be turned over for court martial. As fate would have it, Secretary of Defense Stevens (note that JM went through proper channels) was out of town, so the letter fell instead into the hands of Army counselor John Adams.
About that situation, Adams says in his own memoirs that he decided, "In short, to hell with McCarthy," and he granted the discharge to Peress.

Obviously, this whitewash left Senator McCarthy more than a little indignant. So he dispatched his committee staffer James Juliana to Camp Kilmer to interview the general. Juliana came back with a report to the senator that Zwicker would be an informative and friendly witness — that he opposed giving Peress an honorable discharge — especially given that it was Zwicker who had put the McCarthy committee on Peress's case in the first place. And this happened after the general had gone through channels to protest Peress's previous quick promotions up to the rank of Major.

Zwicker was called before McCarthy’s Committee and the night before he received "a flying visit" from Army counsel Adams who specifically told him to back off. Adams acknowledged as much in his later book "Without Precedent," which was published in 1983.

It was at that hearing during which McCarthy angrily responded to Zwicker’s unexpected turn-about, which had resulted from Adams’ visit the night before, unbeknownst to McCarthy:

When Zwicker took the witness chair the next day, in response to McCarthy’s questioning about Peress’ honorable discharge, Zwicker hemmed and hawed as if he had become a totally different person. He verbally fenced with McCarthy, refusing to answer many questions, claimed he didn't know about Peress's Red connections, and even said he didn't know about the well-publicized fact that Peress had taken the Fifth Amendment earlier.

The cat-and-mouse game went on until finally McCarthy asked him if a hypothetical general who signed the order to grant a security risk an honorable discharge [Adams] should be kept in the military. Zwicker responded, "I do not think he should be removed from the military."

This is where, McCarthy finally "lost it," and fired a volley at the general that would haunt the senator in his upcoming battle to fend off attacks from his determined enemies. Said he, "Then, general, you should be removed from command," adding that any general willing "to protect another general who protected Communists is not fit to wear that uniform, General."

Was General Zwicker harmed by this criticism from McCarthy?

The investigation did not end there. The following year (1955), the committee — by then under Democrat control and chaired by Senator John McClellan (D-Ark.) pursued the case and referred Zwicker's testimony to the Justice Department for consideration of perjury charges. Eisenhower’s Justice Department took 19 months to respond and finally decide that the referral did not meet the "technical" requirements for a perjury indictment.

According to M Stanton Evans in his book Blacklisted by History on January 17, 1957, General Zwicker was nominated for promotion to full rank of temporary major general. At his confirmation hearing, the general was accompanied by Ike's new Army Secretary Wilber Bricker and "a full array of Pentagon brass."
The promotion was quickly approved by the US Senate.

Not bad for someone who had been a candidate for a perjury rap.
So McCarthy loses his temper while General Zwicker loses his integrity but gets promoted. Which is worse?

Need more? Good god man, wake up.
Of course none of this matters to you. You do not require evidence. Innuendo, suspicions, rumor and gossip do it for you instead of facts.

Good god man, it appears that you are describing yourself with these ad hominem attacks. Why does one commit so much and so dogmatically to popular wisdom? I think I understand, it's standard teaching, but here’s your chance, to be on the side of people who keep their minds open versus closed.

Proud of the excellent work you've done, AH...

But so disappointed in the windbag who simply ignores links, fact, real expertise in favor of some pop culture propaganda...

I take your work as a learning opportunity.

 

[Gadawg73]

Quote: Originally Posted by American Horse

McCarthy's "list" came from the FBI. About everyone he had on his list was proven to be Soviet Agents by Venona papers. He did not accuse for reasons of bringing them to justice, he did it to remove them from sensitive positions in government where they had great influence because of the spirit of the time; that the Soviet Union was a trusted ally. They had great affect on US govt. policy going into the “Cold War” before we were even aware of it’s beginning in approximately 43-44. In some cases it wasn't about their influence but that they had access to highly classified communications, like in a code-room for instance. He was forced to "name names" by his senate colleagues, but that was not his intention. He would've preferred to not have had to do that.

J. Edgar Hoover was notorious for his "lists".

Your do realize, I hope, that the FBI did then, and still does do background investigations for security clearances on people who work in sensitive posts. Back then as now field agents do those investigations, along with a background check (talk to neighbors for instance),, and a national agency check on people who are hired, or are prospective hires, by the government (including military personnel) who might handle classified material. In 1960 after I got my Secret Crypto Security clearance (to work in a “code room/communications center) my fellows and I would’ve been appalled at the lack of security that was common at Ft Monmouth, and Camp Kilmer. We took security seriously.

The fact is, McCarthy’s lists came from several sources:reports of the FBI, dossiers from counterintelligence archives, and sworn testimony, from credible witnesses.



McCarthy had nothing to do with those two, or any other of those who were blacklisted in Hollywood. Those two and any others who were blacklisted in the Hollywood Cinema Industry were not on any list published or submitted by Joe McCarthy. Proof of that is simple to see; please look at your earlier post where you brought up the HUAC in that regard. Indeed it was the House Un-American Activities Committee which considered the problem of Reds in Hollywood. McCarthy didn’t serve there because he was a Senator and HUAC is a committee of the house. This error on your part provides proof that you simply do no know or prudently consider the claims you are making.

And the Hollywood Ten happened before McCarthy. They were a group of Ten large film producers and magnates who were concerned about the image of Hollywood film industry. During the War Hollywood had been involved with patriotic and other public service productions. They are still easy to find. They were concerned, not only about their image, but being aware of the power of their art, didn’t want to see it debauched.



Here is an alphabetical list of ten McCarthy suspects, taken from his Senate speeches and/or hearings in which he figured:

Names: Solomon Adler
Cedric Belfrage
T.A. Bisson
V. Frank Coe
Lauchlin Currie
Harold Glasser
David Karr
Mary Jane Keeney
Leonard Mins
Franz Neumann….

I invite you to type any of those names next to the words “McCarthy hearings” to see their communist ties.

This is, to be sure, a heterogeneous group. While all of them came under McCarthy’s lens, they did so in different measures and different settings. Some were in the original bloc of cases he brought before the Senate and Tydings panel (Keeney, Neumann), some were otherwise named in public statements (Bisson, Karr), some later appeared before his subcommittee (Belfrage, Mins), and so on. However, all were McCarthy targets in one fashion or another, and thus per the standard teaching must have been mere innocent victims of his midcentury reign of terror.

Except, when the Venona file was published in 1995, all these McCarthy cases were right there in the decrypts, each named significantly in the Soviet cables. From these identifications (and collateral data from the Kremlin archives) it’s apparent that, rather than being blameless martyrs, all were indeed Communists, Soviet agents, or assets of the KGB, just as McCarthy had suggested and generally speaking even more so. they happen to show up in Venona, which though of great importance is but one subset of the huge database now available on such matters. If we look to other information sources--reports of the FBI, dossiers from counterintelligence archives, sworn testimony be credible witnesses--- it would be possible to identify twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, or more McCarthy targets in like manner.

McCarthy opened an investigation into the US Army with his bogus claims that they were infiltrated with communist spies. He started his investigation into the Army Signals Corp at Ft. Monmouth ...

Ft Monmouth was full of Red moles.
The base commander, General Lawton brought the situation there to the attention of McCarthy and was punished for exposing Communists; General Zwicker base commander of Camp Kilmer N.J. was rewarded for covering up for them.

Follow the below link to see the extent of the spy system at Ft. Monmouth, beginning with the Rosenbergs, but certainly not ending with them:

Click Here =>“….When Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were executed on June 19, 1953, the spy ring through which they committed espionage did not just go away [at Monmouth]…”

Of course he did get some famous headlines with his bogus claims of Army researchers that were definitely communist according to him but reality once again set in on McCarthy and his fraudulent claims.

It was a thankless task, but he tried his very best to do what he believed was needed to protect our national security in dangerous times. He never put himself forward as a prosecutor which is a part of the denunciation of McCarthy: that none of his suspects went to prison for their allegedly subversive doings. But of course McCarthy had neither the duty nor the power to put such people in prison so this is an obvious red herring dragged across the path to confuse the issue. His oft-stated and sanctioned by the law purpose was to get his suspects out of the federal government and its policy-making system; all the battles in which he was engaged revolved around this central purpose.

Fraudulent claims?
As a result of lax security, printing plates for (German) occupation currency, issued and redeemable by the United States were passed to Soviet control by members of the Treasury network: V. Frank Cole, Harold Glasser, Harry White, Sol Adler, Gregory Silvermaster, and others. In these hearings held by McCarthy Elizabeth Bentley testified that the handover of the currency plates was ordered by her former Soviet bosses, and that Red agents in Treasury followed through and got the job done.

Coe and Glasser were questioned about this and other postwar financial issues. Coe was in particular quizzed about a memo he wrote passing along a Soviet request for more dies to print the occupation money.

Did McCarthy make any mistakes? Don’t we all if we are doing anything? Problem is, the leftists who so virulently hate him wildly throw out bogus claims about his doings, like you just did, some of which can easily be debunked (2-above), but others like what you said about Him calling General Zwicker a communists, require more research, so that for most of us it’s simply easier for most of us to just quit and let it be.

(response continued in next post)

Not 1 of those you correctly stated McCarthy called out was on any list he never produced. He called each and every one of them out but ALL of them were exposed by others, not Joe McCarthy. Most of them before he was even elected. Some like Keeney were communists but never were spies as McCarthy NEVER alleged she was.
It ain't a crime to be a communist here.
All he ever did was wave that list. He never released it for anyone to see.
McCarthy ruined hundreds of lives for nothing.
In America, we never allow guilt by association or accusations without proof to smear. McCarthy did that and got away with it.

 

[Gadawg73]

<SNIP>
McCarthy called Lena Horne, Charlie Chaplin, Arthur Miller, Leonard Bernstein, Lillian Hellman and hundreds of others in film, theatre and media before his "House Un American Activities Committee" accusing them,with no evidence of course as bozos like you require no evidence, of being communists and/or communist supporters.
You may believe Charlie Chaplin and Lena Horne werecommunist spies and I will allow you to be a dumbass and believe it.
However, I will always call you out and demand proof all the while allowing you to be a dumbass.
To date you have no proof.

Are you not aware that Senator Joe McCarthy was a US Senator and not a member of any House Committee? Only US Representatives serve on House Committees. Gadawg you need to back up your assertions with accurate historical infomation, and that requires that you do some reading and not just fly with opinion, ardent though they may be.

You are the one that posts names that were identified in the House Committee, that McCarthy was NEVER a part of in 1948. I didn't do that, you did.
That list you gave in another post with allegations that McCarthy exposed them was from that hearing and before.
History has the proof. McCarthy was exposed as a fraud by THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.
Do you really believe Lena Horne and Charlie Chaplin were communist agents?
That fluoridation of water, mental health clinics and vaccinations a communist plot?
You may believe it but I do not.
Fact is that Joe was a closeted homosexual along with Roy Cohn, his assistant, and J. Edgar Hoover. I am a supporter of gay rights but McCarthy did what he did to draw attention away from his homosexuality and severe alcoholism which is absolute fact. He died of acute hepatitis from alcoholism.

 

[Gadawg73]

As usual, this investigation, just like ALL of his other witch hunts, ended with NO evidence and nothing came of his self proclaimed "investigations". McCarthy claimed General Zwecker, a combat hero from WWII was a commuinist.

McCarthy never called him nor claimed Zwicker (base commander of Camp Kilmer, N.J.) was a communist.
Following are the events surrounding what actually did happen between McCarthy and Zwicker: Called by a staffer of McCarthy, Zwicker had volunteered that there were security problems at CKNJ, and confirmed that a dentist — Dr. Irving Peress — was among the several suspects stationed there, and was scheduled to receive an honorable discharge. The issue was lax security procedures, not about Peress per se. [Last I checked, subversives supposedly were not eligible for U.S. military service] Appearing before McCarthy’s committee, Peress took the Fifth Amendment when asked about Communist Party membership. He pleaded the Fifth Amendment when asked if he'd attempted to recruit any military personnel at Kilmer into the Communist Party, whether there had been Communist Party meetings in his home attended by one or more military personnel, whether he himself happened to be a member of the Communist cell at Camp Kilmer, and if he had organized a cell at the military base.

After Peress claimed the 5th in committee testimony, McCarthy fired off a letter to the Army — hand-delivered to the Pentagon — urging that the honorable discharge be canceled, and that Peress instead be turned over for court martial. As fate would have it, Secretary of Defense Stevens (note that JM went through proper channels) was out of town, so the letter fell instead into the hands of Army counselor John Adams.
About that situation, Adams says in his own memoirs that he decided, "In short, to hell with McCarthy," and he granted the discharge to Peress.

Obviously, this whitewash left Senator McCarthy more than a little indignant. So he dispatched his committee staffer James Juliana to Camp Kilmer to interview the general. Juliana came back with a report to the senator that Zwicker would be an informative and friendly witness — that he opposed giving Peress an honorable discharge — especially given that it was Zwicker who had put the McCarthy committee on Peress's case in the first place. And this happened after the general had gone through channels to protest Peress's previous quick promotions up to the rank of Major.

Zwicker was called before McCarthy’s Committee and the night before he received "a flying visit" from Army counsel Adams who specifically told him to back off. Adams acknowledged as much in his later book "Without Precedent," which was published in 1983.

It was at that hearing during which McCarthy angrily responded to Zwicker’s unexpected turn-about, which had resulted from Adams’ visit the night before, unbeknownst to McCarthy:

When Zwicker took the witness chair the next day, in response to McCarthy’s questioning about Peress’ honorable discharge, Zwicker hemmed and hawed as if he had become a totally different person. He verbally fenced with McCarthy, refusing to answer many questions, claimed he didn't know about Peress's Red connections, and even said he didn't know about the well-publicized fact that Peress had taken the Fifth Amendment earlier.

The cat-and-mouse game went on until finally McCarthy asked him if a hypothetical general who signed the order to grant a security risk an honorable discharge [Adams] should be kept in the military. Zwicker responded, "I do not think he should be removed from the military."

This is where, McCarthy finally "lost it," and fired a volley at the general that would haunt the senator in his upcoming battle to fend off attacks from his determined enemies. Said he, "Then, general, you should be removed from command," adding that any general willing "to protect another general who protected Communists is not fit to wear that uniform, General."

Was General Zwicker harmed by this criticism from McCarthy?

The investigation did not end there. The following year (1955), the committee — by then under Democrat control and chaired by Senator John McClellan (D-Ark.) pursued the case and referred Zwicker's testimony to the Justice Department for consideration of perjury charges. Eisenhower’s Justice Department took 19 months to respond and finally decide that the referral did not meet the "technical" requirements for a perjury indictment.

According to M Stanton Evans in his book Blacklisted by History on January 17, 1957, General Zwicker was nominated for promotion to full rank of temporary major general. At his confirmation hearing, the general was accompanied by Ike's new Army Secretary Wilber Bricker and "a full array of Pentagon brass."
The promotion was quickly approved by the US Senate.

Not bad for someone who had been a candidate for a perjury rap.
So McCarthy loses his temper while General Zwicker loses his integrity but gets promoted. Which is worse?

Need more? Good god man, wake up.
Of course none of this matters to you. You do not require evidence. Innuendo, suspicions, rumor and gossip do it for you instead of facts.

Good god man, it appears that you are describing yourself with these ad hominem attacks. Why does one commit so much and so dogmatically to popular wisdom? I think I understand, it's standard teaching, but here’s your chance, to be on the side of people who keep their minds open versus closed.

Proud of the excellent work you've done, AH...

But so disappointed in the windbag who simply ignores links, fact, real expertise in favor of some pop culture propaganda...

I take your work as a learning opportunity.

LOL, I love it!
I have investigated over 5000 criminal and civil cases over the years and I require and need some proof and evidence.
More importantly, juries are instructed by judges with jury charges, too complicated for you to understand, on the laws and burdens of what is proof.
McCarthy, like you, had no proof in 95% of his "cases".
Innuendo, suspicions, rumor, gossip, maybes, should bes, could bes do not count.
Vaccinations, the fluoridation of the water supply and governments funding mental health clinics are all a communist plot.
You believe it, not me.
Did you enjoy your trip to see pro wrasslin last night?

 

[American Horse]

LOL, I love it!
I have investigated over 5000 criminal and civil cases over the years and I require and need some proof and evidence.
More importantly, juries are instructed by judges with jury charges, too complicated for you to understand, on the laws and burdens of what is proof.
McCarthy, like you, had no proof in 95% of his "cases".
Innuendo, suspicions, rumor, gossip, maybes, should bes, could bes do not count.
Vaccinations, the fluoridation of the water supply and governments funding mental health clinics are all a communist plot. [STRAW DOGS]
You believe it, not me.
Did you enjoy your trip to see pro wrasslin last night?

Are you an adult? Is that really you in your avatar? Did you read the material above? Do you not yet understand that McCarthy was not a prosecutor, he was a US Senator with the duty of oversight?

Unlike too many he put his reputation on the line.

It's easy for me to impute that the official (Army counselor Adams) that got to General Zwicker, put pressure on him not because he (Adams) was a communist, but that he didn't think that being a communist spy was all that big an issue; not compared to the fallout that would fall on the command above your General Zwicker had Zwicker gone ahead as planned.

Why is it you feel the need to fall back on recriminations? Just answer the posts, or let it go.

Or....Give us some insight of what your five thousand cases were about and we can go from there.

 

[American Horse]

<SNIP>
McCarthy called Lena Horne, Charlie Chaplin, Arthur Miller, Leonard Bernstein, Lillian Hellman and hundreds of others in film, theatre and media before his "House Un American Activities Committee" accusing them,with no evidence of course as bozos like you require no evidence, of being communists and/or communist supporters.
You may believe Charlie Chaplin and Lena Horne werecommunist spies and I will allow you to be a dumbass and believe it.
However, I will always call you out and demand proof all the while allowing you to be a dumbass.
To date you have no proof.

Are you not aware that Senator Joe McCarthy was a US Senator and not a member of any House Committee? Only US Representatives serve on House Committees. Gadawg you need to back up your assertions with accurate historical infomation, and that requires that you do some reading and not just fly with opinion, ardent though they may be.

You are the one that posts names that were identified in the House Committee, that McCarthy was NEVER a part of in 1948. I didn't do that, you did.
That list you gave in another post with allegations that McCarthy exposed them was from that hearing and before.

I listed ten names just like you asked (in a separate post) and they did not come from HUAC, they came from McCarthy's work. You clearly confused the HUAC as HIS, referring to McCarthy's committee and it was not HIS committee; he was a senator and HUAC is a house committee.

History has the proof. McCarthy was exposed as a fraud by THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

Republicans are wimps, always have been

Do you really believe Lena Horne and Charlie Chaplin were communist agents?

McCarthy (nor I) never said they were (HUAC again, may I remind you)

That fluoridation of water, mental health clinics and vaccinations a communist plot?
You may believe it but I do not.

Are you confusing the John Birchers with Joe McCarthy? What ridiculous deflections you fall back on.

Fact is that Joe was a closeted homosexual along with Roy Cohn, his assistant, and J. Edgar Hoover. I am a supporter of gay rights but McCarthy did what he did to draw attention away from his homosexuality and severe alcoholism which is absolute fact. He died of acute hepatitis from alcoholism.

So what? What the heck is that all about? Why does it matter whether or not any of those people were homosexuals, let alone closeted in those years? And if they were, doesn't that speak to their bravery, that they were willing to challenge the status quo as homosexuals? After all that would make them vulnerable to a witch-hunt just like the one you are now guilty of.

You aren't saying, like we have always heard, that since homosexuals are subject to blackmail, thus coercion, that that should disqualify them from sensitive classified work, are you?

And alcoholic? I'd imagine that the whole ordeal drove him to drink after it was all over. How would you have held up, had you tried to sound the alarm, and ended up condemned as a witch hunter?

You seem to be just throwing shit up against the wall to see what will stick.

 

[Gadawg73]

LOL, I love it!
I have investigated over 5000 criminal and civil cases over the years and I require and need some proof and evidence.
More importantly, juries are instructed by judges with jury charges, too complicated for you to understand, on the laws and burdens of what is proof.
McCarthy, like you, had no proof in 95% of his "cases".
Innuendo, suspicions, rumor, gossip, maybes, should bes, could bes do not count.
Vaccinations, the fluoridation of the water supply and governments funding mental health clinics are all a communist plot. [STRAW DOGS]
You believe it, not me.
Did you enjoy your trip to see pro wrasslin last night?

Are you an adult? Is that really you in your avatar? Did you read the material above? Do you not yet understand that McCarthy was not a prosecutor, he was a US Senator with the duty of oversight?

Unlike too many he put his reputation on the line.

It's easy for me to impute that the official (Army counselor Adams) that got to General Zwicker, put pressure on him not because he (Adams) was a communist, but that he didn't think that being a communist spy was all that big an issue; not compared to the fallout that would fall on the command above your General Zwicker had Zwicker gone ahead as planned.

Why is it you feel the need to fall back on recriminations? Just answer the posts, or let it go.

Or....Give us some insight of what your five thousand cases were about and we can go from there.

Where did I claim McCarthy was a prosecutor?
He was a Senator? No shit?
How come McCarthy never produced the "list" when asked by the lead attorney that represented the US Army?
Because there never was any list. If there was one he would have produced it.
You are not even good at making it up as you go. To date, you still have no evidence.

 

[Gadawg73]

Are you not aware that Senator Joe McCarthy was a US Senator and not a member of any House Committee? Only US Representatives serve on House Committees. Gadawg you need to back up your assertions with accurate historical infomation, and that requires that you do some reading and not just fly with opinion, ardent though they may be.

You are the one that posts names that were identified in the House Committee, that McCarthy was NEVER a part of in 1948. I didn't do that, you did.
That list you gave in another post with allegations that McCarthy exposed them was from that hearing and before.

I listed ten names just like you asked (in a separate post) and they did not come from HUAC, they came from McCarthy's work. You clearly confused the HUAC as HIS, referring to McCarthy's committee and it was not HIS committee; he was a senator and HUAC is a house committee.


Republicans are wimps, always have been

McCarthy (nor I) never said they were (HUAC again, may I remind you)

That fluoridation of water, mental health clinics and vaccinations a communist plot?
You may believe it but I do not.

Are you confusing the John Birchers with Joe McCarthy? What ridiculous deflections you fall back on.

Fact is that Joe was a closeted homosexual along with Roy Cohn, his assistant, and J. Edgar Hoover. I am a supporter of gay rights but McCarthy did what he did to draw attention away from his homosexuality and severe alcoholism which is absolute fact. He died of acute hepatitis from alcoholism.

So what? What the heck is that all about? Why does it matter whether or not any of those people were homosexuals, let alone closeted in those years? And if they were, doesn't that speak to their bravery, that they were willing to challenge the status quo as homosexuals? After all that would make them vulnerable to a witch-hunt just like the one you are now guilty of.

You aren't saying, like we have always heard, that since homosexuals are subject to blackmail, thus coercion, that that should disqualify them from sensitive classified work, are you?

And alcoholic? I'd imagine that the whole ordeal drove him to drink after it was all over. How would you have held up, had you tried to sound the alarm, and ended up condemned as a witch hunter?

You seem to be just throwing shit up against the wall to see what will stick.

LOL, you have more excuses and theories than a 5 year old that just spilled a glass of milk.

If you do not know that Joe McCarthy stated himself that vaccinations, fluoridation of water and the government funding mental health clinics then you are in denial. He said it and that is documented fact.
So you condone slandering hundreds of innocent people because he "sounded the alarm"?
They do it that way in Iran, but not here. Delta is ready when you are.

 

[American Horse]

LOL, you have more excuses and theories than a 5 year old that just spilled a glass of milk.

If you do not know that Joe McCarthy stated himself that vaccinations, fluoridation of water and the government funding mental health clinics then you are in denial. He said it and that is documented fact.
So you condone slandering hundreds of innocent people because he "sounded the alarm"?
They do it that way in Iran, but not here. Delta is ready when you are.

Show me some evidence, even a credible link that Joe McCarthy ever stated that. Anything will do; I want to see it. So document it; give us a link. Come on! Do it!

And do you not see the inconsistency in your statement that 'if I don't know something' that it has to be that I'm in denial? I may not know something simply because I never heard or read it, or am ignorant of it.

I want to remind you, that unlike some, I was around in those years, and at the age of 13 I watched the Army McCarthy hearings as they were broadcast on TV during the summer afternoons; not that I fully understood what I was seeing, but I'm a part of the age.

Slandering hundreds of people? He was careful to give only those names in public that were absolutely necessary. It was his opponents that required the release of names so that they could force the issue, believing they could drive him into retreat and blaggard him with their willing media,, even back then. Show me a list of hundreds of people he slandered, excepting your personal interpretation of "innuendo'" about his saying there were (however many) willing agents of communists. I will do some research about your "hundreds" of names; I think it was far fewer.

 

[American Horse]

<SNIP>
If you do not know that Joe McCarthy stated himself that vaccinations, fluoridation of water and the government funding mental health clinics then you are in denial. He said it and that is documented fact.
<SNIP>

Gad, I don't want to be a pest on this, but you made the above assertion now please back it up with some link that supports it. You said it is a documented fact; please provide some documentation.