OK RWers, Lets Say They Scrap The Bill, Start Over If You Will...

[FireGod]

Now where in the constitution, the federalist papers, the bill of rights, or any other of our great documents, is there justification for the federal government addressing any of those things?

OK fine who's job is it?
Consumers? Logic that one out please.
Health insurance industry itself? Logic that one please.
Take the government out those are the two options left right? So how are any changes going to happen? Oh wait there is no need for change right because all is well and dandy?

I will agree that government oversight of the insurance industry needs improvement. To date, the government has institutionalized insurance fraud in the medicare and medicaid programs..

But where in your post did you offer constitutional support for federal control of Healthcare.
All you offered were more emotion based arguments.
I, as an American citizen, deserve the right to have to opportunity to succeed. Likewise, i deserve the right to have the opportunity to fail. Without failure, there can be no success.
the idea that if you "logic out" the answers to your questions is simply another emotion based argument that stands against freedom and the intent of the constitution.
I demand the right to succeed, and the right to fail. It was promised to all of us US citizens in our founding documents.

I did not offer Constitutional support because I am convinced that there is none.

I did not offer an emotional argument because they do not work with the corporation run government that we enjoy and love.

I asked you to logic out the ONLY POSSIBLE TWO answers, now that we have determined that health care is not not not in the Constitution. I am not looking for the right to succeed or fail. I am looking for the ability to not GET FUCKED when I am sick or injured.

Oh that is right, it is my responsibility to not get sick or injured at all.
Too bad for me and the kidlets then.

 

[hboats]

slackjawed, your comment that it's not in the constitution is a) wrong and b) was proven disingenuous by Obama...when he bitchslapped Cantor.

Yes, Obama really showed it to Cantor didn't he? I mean the nerve of Cantor to bring the health care bill that was supposed to be discussed to the "summit." And Obama calling his own bill a "prop" was a huge "bitchslap" I'm just not sure that it was Cantor who got slapped. Looked to me like Obama "bitchslapped" himself, calling his own bill a "prop." And then calling Cantor's arguments "talking points" was a huge "bitchslap" too, wasn't it? I mean they obviously weren't there to discuss/argue, they were there to get steamrolled into voting for this piece of crap of a bill.

The very fact that you watched (if you did indeed watch) this sham of a "summit" and can honestly say that Obama did anything close to "bitchslap" anyone is a joke. Obama was made to look stupid, and if you don't believe me, just watch any major new coverage, they're all saying the Democrats came out of that meeting worse off than they went in.

Rick

 

[slackjawed]

OK fine who's job is it?
Consumers? Logic that one out please.
Health insurance industry itself? Logic that one please.
Take the government out those are the two options left right? So how are any changes going to happen? Oh wait there is no need for change right because all is well and dandy?

I will agree that government oversight of the insurance industry needs improvement. To date, the government has institutionalized insurance fraud in the medicare and medicaid programs..

But where in your post did you offer constitutional support for federal control of Healthcare.
All you offered were more emotion based arguments.
I, as an American citizen, deserve the right to have to opportunity to succeed. Likewise, i deserve the right to have the opportunity to fail. Without failure, there can be no success.
the idea that if you "logic out" the answers to your questions is simply another emotion based argument that stands against freedom and the intent of the constitution.
I demand the right to succeed, and the right to fail. It was promised to all of us US citizens in our founding documents.

I did not offer Constitutional support because I am convinced that there is none.

I did not offer an emotional argument because they do not work with the corporation run government that we enjoy and love.

I asked you to logic out the ONLY POSSIBLE TWO answers, now that we have determined that health care is not not not in the Constitution. I am not looking for the right to succeed or fail. I am looking for the ability to not GET FUCKED when I am sick or injured.

Oh that is right, it is my responsibility to not get sick or injured at all.
Too bad for me and the kidlets then.

People suffer misfortune all the time. While it is too bad, and sad, and I have suffered it myself, as i am sure you have as well. This is no reason to allow the federal government to take that much more control, and freedom from the citizens.

How is your statement, "Oh that is right, it is my responsibility to not get sick or injured at all.
Too bad for me and the kidlets then" , not an emotional argument?
I will tell you that it is an emotional argument. I expect you to tell me you don't want to wear your dead sisters teeth next, it would be no different.

 

[FireGod]

I will agree that government oversight of the insurance industry needs improvement. To date, the government has institutionalized insurance fraud in the medicare and medicaid programs..

But where in your post did you offer constitutional support for federal control of Healthcare.
All you offered were more emotion based arguments.
I, as an American citizen, deserve the right to have to opportunity to succeed. Likewise, i deserve the right to have the opportunity to fail. Without failure, there can be no success.
the idea that if you "logic out" the answers to your questions is simply another emotion based argument that stands against freedom and the intent of the constitution.
I demand the right to succeed, and the right to fail. It was promised to all of us US citizens in our founding documents.

I did not offer Constitutional support because I am convinced that there is none.

I did not offer an emotional argument because they do not work with the corporation run government that we enjoy and love.

I asked you to logic out the ONLY POSSIBLE TWO answers, now that we have determined that health care is not not not in the Constitution. I am not looking for the right to succeed or fail. I am looking for the ability to not GET FUCKED when I am sick or injured.

Oh that is right, it is my responsibility to not get sick or injured at all.
Too bad for me and the kidlets then.

People suffer misfortune all the time. While it is too bad, and sad, and I have suffered it myself, as i am sure you have as well. This is no reason to allow the federal government to take that much more control, and freedom from the citizens.

How is your statement, "Oh that is right, it is my responsibility to not get sick or injured at all.
Too bad for me and the kidlets then" , not an emotional argument?
I will tell you that it is an emotional argument. I expect you to tell me you don't want to wear your dead sisters teeth next, it would be no different.

What is in red is an emotional arguement.

Now please, seeing how that we have determined that government has no say in health care, insurance or systems; what am I supposed to do to keep from loosing whatever I have left should I get sick or injured again?

 

[Some Guy]

For those who favor a mandate on purchasing health care (and can actually afford it), where do you stop with the mandates? Obviously the mandate is proposed because "it's good for you and it's good for everyone." Isn't also good to eat your 5 servings of vegetables every day? Drink 8 glasses of water per day? Not drink soda? Not eat fast food? If you're in favor of a mandate for health insurance, would you also be in favor of having the government mandate aspects of our diet? Perhaps mandate a minimum of 30 minutes to an hour of physical activity each day? Where would you draw the line when it comes to mandates?

 

[slackjawed]

slackjawed, your comment that it's not in the constitution is a) wrong and b) was proven disingenuous by Obama...when he bitchslapped Cantor.

Yes, Obama really showed it to Cantor didn't he? I mean the nerve of Cantor to bring the health care bill that was supposed to be discussed to the "summit." And Obama calling his own bill a "prop" was a huge "bitchslap" I'm just not sure that it was Cantor who got slapped. Looked to me like Obama "bitchslapped" himself, calling his own bill a "prop." And then calling Cantor's arguments "talking points" was a huge "bitchslap" too, wasn't it? I mean they obviously weren't there to discuss/argue, they were there to get steamrolled into voting for this piece of crap of a bill.

The very fact that you watched (if you did indeed watch) this sham of a "summit" and can honestly say that Obama did anything close to "bitchslap" anyone is a joke. Obama was made to look stupid, and if you don't believe me, just watch any major new coverage, they're all saying the Democrats came out of that meeting worse off than they went in.

Rick

I too, after watching and listening to the entire show, thought Obama was the one that got "bitchslapped". The only ones who don't see it are the partisan lefty's. I was accused of being a partisan shill by one on this board that likely didn't watch it. i am waiting for the tired old line that was used before the election that all opposition to Obama is 'racist'.
Epic fail of the democrats at the healthcare summit, that's the opinion I hold, based on my observations made watching and listening to the entire thing.
I am tired of being told what to think by the leftwingnuts, and am tired of being shouted down. I don't think I am alone. The people are waking up, and the only ones that don't see it are the leftwing partisan loons. They are continuing the same tired tactics, and i am encouraging them to continue. The backlash will be great for the USA.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

You want tort reform?

You want to allow insurance companies to operate across state lines?

Those are the two I hear brought up the most.

What else do ya got?

How about we start with these 2 things and also rooting the half a trillion dollars in fraud for example.

Why do you want to ram through a 2.5 trillion dollar spending scheme just to say "LOOK WHAT I DID" without considering the government budgetary consequences on our future generations?

 

[Some Guy]

How about we start with these 2 things and also rooting the half a trillion dollars in fraud for example.

Why do you want to ram through a 2.5 trillion dollar spending scheme just to say "LOOK WHAT I DID" without considering the government budgetary consequences on our future generations?

Because our health care system sucks. We're ranked 37th in the world. Haven't you heard?

 

[slackjawed]

I did not offer Constitutional support because I am convinced that there is none.

I did not offer an emotional argument because they do not work with the corporation run government that we enjoy and love.

I asked you to logic out the ONLY POSSIBLE TWO answers, now that we have determined that health care is not not not in the Constitution. I am not looking for the right to succeed or fail. I am looking for the ability to not GET FUCKED when I am sick or injured.

Oh that is right, it is my responsibility to not get sick or injured at all.
Too bad for me and the kidlets then.

People suffer misfortune all the time. While it is too bad, and sad, and I have suffered it myself, as i am sure you have as well. This is no reason to allow the federal government to take that much more control, and freedom from the citizens.

How is your statement, "Oh that is right, it is my responsibility to not get sick or injured at all.
Too bad for me and the kidlets then" , not an emotional argument?
I will tell you that it is an emotional argument. I expect you to tell me you don't want to wear your dead sisters teeth next, it would be no different.

What is in red is an emotional arguement.

Now please, seeing how that we have determined that government has no say in health care, insurance or systems; what am I supposed to do to keep from loosing whatever I have left should I get sick or injured again?

Yet another emotional argument!
I am telling you again, I don't believe it is my, or the government's place to tell you what to do in such a situation. You have the freedom, for good or bad, to make that decision yourself. i would support whatever decision you make, as you are free to do so.

It simply is not my place, or the federal government's place to take the freedom to make that choice away from you, or me, or anyone else. The human condition is full of pitfalls, and protecting everyone from them is not the pace of our government.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

How about we start with these 2 things and also rooting the half a trillion dollars in fraud for example.

Why do you want to ram through a 2.5 trillion dollar spending scheme just to say "LOOK WHAT I DID" without considering the government budgetary consequences on our future generations?

Because our health care system sucks. We're ranked 37th in the world. Haven't you heard?

37th? By the WHO? A U.N. tool? Whooooooopty fricken doooooooooooo. I'll take 37th over socialized medicine any day of the week.

 

[Some Guy]

37th? By the WHO? A U.N. tool? Whooooooopty fricken doooooooooooo. I'll take 37th over socialized medicine any day of the week.

You're stupid then. We need to socialize our health care system as fast as possible because these rankings by the WHO are critical. If we're not at least top 10... well... then.... ummm.

 

[FireGod]

People suffer misfortune all the time. While it is too bad, and sad, and I have suffered it myself, as i am sure you have as well. This is no reason to allow the federal government to take that much more control, and freedom from the citizens.

How is your statement, "Oh that is right, it is my responsibility to not get sick or injured at all.
Too bad for me and the kidlets then" , not an emotional argument?
I will tell you that it is an emotional argument. I expect you to tell me you don't want to wear your dead sisters teeth next, it would be no different.

What is in red is an emotional arguement.

Now please, seeing how that we have determined that government has no say in health care, insurance or systems; what am I supposed to do to keep from loosing whatever I have left should I get sick or injured again?

Yet another emotional argument!
I am telling you again, I don't believe it is my, or the government's place to tell you what to do in such a situation. You have the freedom, for good or bad, to make that decision yourself. i would support whatever decision you make, as you are free to do so.

It simply is not my place, or the federal government's place to take the freedom to make that choice away from you, or me, or anyone else. The human condition is full of pitfalls, and protecting everyone from them is not the pace of our government.

Ok then there is nothing that should be mandated to help me should me or my kidlets get sick or injured again, from your POV. Everyone has to fend for themselves no matter what. Cool beans then.

Please feel free to work hard at removing all health related issues (mandatory vaccinations and the like) from entrance in the public school system. Also please work hard in removing medicare and medicaid from the government also as it is not the job of the government to protect those who happen to grow old either.

 

[Cuyo]

What are the dems proposing as part of this bill that actually targets the cost to provide health care?

Hint: "cost" and "price" are not the same thing.

Well let's see, if you provide coverage for 30 million UNinsured then you will prevent MILLIONS of unneccesary ER visits and reduce costs GREATLY! We don't NEED or WANT people to have to wait until they are in CRITICAL condition to seek medical help DO we!!!??? Fewer ER visits mean fewer medical bankruptcies and FAR fewer $s writen off as uncollectable which means the cost of doing business for hospitals DROPS! If people can get yearly physicals then they will live HEALTHIER more productive lives. Healthy people have FEWER sick days thus improving productivity of businesses across the board!


So let's check these points.......

*Fewer DEATHS due to easily treatable conditions found early on.
*Lower cost for hospitals due to fewer UNPAID ER visits.
*Higher productivity due to FEWER sick days.
*Fewer medical BANKRUPTCIES due to early less expensive treatment.

Now where in the constitution, the federalist papers, the bill of rights, or any other of our great documents, is there justification for the federal government addressing any of those things?

We are the federal government. If we the people say the government can do this things, they can. If we the people interpret it as unconstitutional, we the people can amend the constitution.

We are the government. That's a big part of what you've lost sight of.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Well let's see, if you provide coverage for 30 million UNinsured then you will prevent MILLIONS of unneccesary ER visits and reduce costs GREATLY! We don't NEED or WANT people to have to wait until they are in CRITICAL condition to seek medical help DO we!!!??? Fewer ER visits mean fewer medical bankruptcies and FAR fewer $s writen off as uncollectable which means the cost of doing business for hospitals DROPS! If people can get yearly physicals then they will live HEALTHIER more productive lives. Healthy people have FEWER sick days thus improving productivity of businesses across the board!


So let's check these points.......

*Fewer DEATHS due to easily treatable conditions found early on.
*Lower cost for hospitals due to fewer UNPAID ER visits.
*Higher productivity due to FEWER sick days.
*Fewer medical BANKRUPTCIES due to early less expensive treatment.

I'd really question the ability to get yearly physicals leading to healthier lifestyles. For one, i'm insured and i've had one physical in about the last 10 years. Why bother if i feel fine? Maybe a little cavalier there but i already live a pretty healthy lifestyle. I could see instances where someone having insurance leads to an un-healthier lifestyle. If the coverage is there then why worry too much about blood pressure or cholesterol when the medication will be affordable?

So, i see your point, but you're making an awful lot of assumptions that people are going to do exactly what you expect them to do. I'm certainly not a fan of the subsidies that would follow a mandate like that, and it doesn't even address the constitutionality of imposing such a mandate.

If you don't get YEARLY physicals then you are boarderline SUICIDAL! Do you get yearly DENTAL exams?

 

[Cold Fusion38]

If you don't get yearly physicals how do you KNOW what your cholesterol is? How do you KNOW what your BLOOD PRESURE is? How do you KNOW what your BLOOD SUGAR is? If you don't get YEARLY physicals then you won't KNOW you are sick until symptoms manifest themselves and at THAT point it is often TOO LATE and ALWAYS more expensive to TREAT!

 

[rdean]

Then what?

What do you do to actually IMPROVE the current system?

And how soon do you plan or expect to do so?

The Republicans have submitted two bills for approval. Do you know what happened to them? They weren't even looked at. They were dismissed. Maybe if the Democrats had tried to include both sides in all of this discussion before today we'd be a lot closer to a solution.

Rick

Link? I mean a real one. Not some Republican talking point. After Iraq and health care, you know you can't trust Republicans.

 

[Vel]

Then what?

What do you do to actually IMPROVE the current system?

And how soon do you plan or expect to do so?

The Republicans have submitted two bills for approval. Do you know what happened to them? They weren't even looked at. They were dismissed. Maybe if the Democrats had tried to include both sides in all of this discussion before today we'd be a lot closer to a solution.

Rick

Link? I mean a real one. Not some Republican talking point. After Iraq and health care, you know you can't trust Republicans.

rdean.. you posted on another thread the costs of visiting the doctor's office and the cost of the average over night hospital stay. I believe you said $4,700.00. So can you tell us exactly HOW the Obama bill will reduce the price of an over night hospital stay.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

The Republicans have submitted two bills for approval. Do you know what happened to them? They weren't even looked at. They were dismissed. Maybe if the Democrats had tried to include both sides in all of this discussion before today we'd be a lot closer to a solution.

Rick

Link? I mean a real one. Not some Republican talking point. After Iraq and health care, you know you can't trust Republicans.

rdean.. you posted on another thread the costs of visiting the doctor's office and the cost of the average over night hospital stay. I believe you said $4,700.00. So can you tell us exactly HOW the Obama bill will reduce the price of an over night hospital stay.

I can answer that. By reducing UNneeded and UNpaid ER visits.

 

[Oddball]

If you don't get yearly physicals how do you KNOW what your cholesterol is? How do you KNOW what your BLOOD PRESURE is? How do you KNOW what your BLOOD SUGAR is? If you don't get YEARLY physicals then you won't KNOW you are sick until symptoms manifest themselves and at THAT point it is often TOO LATE and ALWAYS more expensive to TREAT!

Physicals aren't that expensive.

Although you have the right to be a cheapskate, you don't have the right to pass the consequences of your stinginess onto me.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

If you don't get yearly physicals how do you KNOW what your cholesterol is? How do you KNOW what your BLOOD PRESURE is? How do you KNOW what your BLOOD SUGAR is? If you don't get YEARLY physicals then you won't KNOW you are sick until symptoms manifest themselves and at THAT point it is often TOO LATE and ALWAYS more expensive to TREAT!

Physicals aren't that expensive.

Although you have the right to be a cheapskate, you don't have the right to pass the consequences of your stinginess onto me.

CHRIST Dude there are PLENTY of people who can't afford to put FOOD on the table let alone get an anual physical. You really ARE one HEARTLESS SOB aren't you? this isn't about me I HAVE HC ins it's about the MILLIONS of Americans who DON'T and CAN'T afford medical treatment!