CDZ NSA, CIA, FBI Spying on American Citizens

[Boss]

He did WHAT???? You've not proven he did anything illegal or unethical! You have ZERO evidence by your own admission! On the other hand, it IS highly illegal and unethical to leak intelligence information, including names of private citizens to the media.

I have to ask myself how absolute idiotic morons can be SO oblivious to politicians exploiting our national security apparatus to spy on their political enemies!

Uh, guy, Flynn is the one who had to resign after they found out what he did. He'll have plenty of company once the investigations get rolling.

For the record, ANYTHING that frustrates this bunch of crooks attempts to destroy America is perfectly okay with me. The sooner we get these people out, the better. I'm not going to get worked up because you all got caught with your pants around our ankles.

He did not resign over "what he did" with regard to his communications with Russians. He didn't tell Pence about the details of his conversation and it put Pence in a bad situation. THAT is why he was asked to resign. There was no evidence of a crime or unethical behavior whatsoever... and you even admitted that earlier.

I am going to add, we are in the CDZ where strict rules apply to your posting. You need to back WAY off on the inflammatory and incendiary posting here. This thread is for a serious intellectual discussion and if you're not capable of that, you need to leave.

 

[JoeB131]

The truth is the Democrats, particularly John Podesta, have ties to Russia while in office, which is illegal, yet they think they can get rid of Trump because of any legal business Trump's company did with Russian companies. They think by flapping their gums they can create a scandal.

Why not? It worked for you with Benghazi.

What works against them is they have idiots like Nancy Pelosi and Maxine Waters showing us daily why they have zero credibility. It also doesn't help that Chuck Schumer, who was screaming at people in a restaurant yesterday, is acting like he's losing his marbles in public...

As opposed to Trump, who is tweeting they need to get rid of Paul Ryan for not being able to get his awful plan passed?

 

[mudwhistle]

The truth is the Democrats, particularly John Podesta, have ties to Russia while in office, which is illegal, yet they think they can get rid of Trump because of any legal business Trump's company did with Russian companies. They think by flapping their gums they can create a scandal.

Why not? It worked for you with Benghazi.

What works against them is they have idiots like Nancy Pelosi and Maxine Waters showing us daily why they have zero credibility. It also doesn't help that Chuck Schumer, who was screaming at people in a restaurant yesterday, is acting like he's losing his marbles in public...

As opposed to Trump, who is tweeting they need to get rid of Paul Ryan for not being able to get his awful plan passed?

When did this happen?

BTW, Benghazi was a case of criminal negligence. The only reason it became an issue was because of the creation of a false narrative to cover it up. Benghazi is nothing like this.

 

[JoeB131]

He did not resign over "what he did" with regard to his communications with Russians. He didn't tell Pence about the details of his conversation and it put Pence in a bad situation. THAT is why he was asked to resign. There was no evidence of a crime or unethical behavior whatsoever... and you even admitted that earlier.

Come on, guy. It was the contact with the Russians that was the problem. Not what he did or didn't tell Pence. He doesn't answer to Pence, he answers to Trump. So either he talked to the Russian Ambassador without authorization, which is illegal, or he did it with authorization and then fell on his sword.

I'd kind of like to know which one it is.

I am going to add, we are in the CDZ where strict rules apply to your posting. You need to back WAY off on the inflammatory and incendiary posting here. This thread is for a serious intellectual discussion and if you're not capable of that, you need to leave.

Guy, I'm playing by the rules. I'm not calling you any names, and I'm not flaming anyone. I am merely stating the point that even Republicans want this Russia thing investigated. Flynn had to resign because of his activities, some of which came to light after he left, like his lobbying for Turkey trying to get a cleric extradited.

Final thought before I'm done here. I seem to remember a 70 million dollar investigation into a former president's sex life, that involved threatening witnesses with prosecution. It seems that you had no problem with that kind of abuse of state authority for political purposes.

I think any reasonable person would say that conspiring with a hostile foreign power is a much more serious thing than a private affair by an official.

Unsubscribe.

 

[JoeB131]

BTW, Benghazi was a case of criminal negligence. The only reason it became an issue was because of the creation of a false narrative to cover it up. Benghazi is nothing like this.

Yes, this is considerably worse. Benghazi was a series of bad judgment calls by a lot of people (including Mrs. Clinton, but also Ambassador Stevens and his staff). This is colluding with a hostile foreign power.

 

[mudwhistle]

BTW, Benghazi was a case of criminal negligence. The only reason it became an issue was because of the creation of a false narrative to cover it up. Benghazi is nothing like this.

Yes, this is considerably worse. Benghazi was a series of bad judgment calls by a lot of people (including Mrs. Clinton, but also Ambassador Stevens and his staff). This is colluding with a hostile foreign power.

It is also a lie.
Again and again they have said there is no evidence of collusion, and yet you dicks think it happened.
Now the investigation has revealed that the Obama Administration has been spying on all of us, and because this has been discovered the Democrats want anyone conducting the investigation and follows the evidence replaced with someone who looks the other way.

 

[Boss]

Come on, guy. It was the contact with the Russians that was the problem. Not what he did or didn't tell Pence. He doesn't answer to Pence, he answers to Trump. So either he talked to the Russian Ambassador without authorization, which is illegal, or he did it with authorization and then fell on his sword.

It is not illegal for the incoming National Security Adviser to talk to the Russian Ambassador or ANY Ambassador. Having contact with a Russian is not a crime.

 

[oldsoul]

Guy, you don't seem to understand how this works. We don't have to prove anything. All we have to do is keep repeating it.

And the truth finaly comes out. You must feel so much freer now. Remeber, the truth shall set you free!!

 

[oldsoul]

And you know this because he was being spied on by Obama & Company and the details were leaked to the media.

So? It's what he did that is the problem, not how we found out.

The scary thing is that this nut was National Security Adviser for a week or so.... because it took that long for this to percolate.

The question you have to ask yourself is why are the intelligence agencies that worried about Trump and the people around him?

He did WHAT???? You've not proven he did anything illegal or unethical! You have ZERO evidence by your own admission! On the other hand, it IS highly illegal and unethical to leak intelligence information, including names of private citizens to the media.

I have to ask myself how some partisans can be SO oblivious to politicians exploiting our national security apparatus to spy on their political enemies!

I fear both of you (Boss an Mudwhistle) are missing the point here. I'll even use his own words:

So? It's what he did that is the problem, not how we found out.

You see, the ends ALWAYS justify the means to these people. Anyone caught in the crossfire is an "acceptable loss" to them. It does not matter that these very same tactics could be used against them in the future, simply because then, and only then, will they see them as a problem. Further, most of them are not forward thinking enough to realise that they can and, eventually, will be used against them.

To me the bigger issue is, as expressed in another thread, there is a signifigant portion of our population that has the mindset that, "I have nothing to hide, so I'm okay with it." The Tories thought the same way some 200+ years ago. They, also, were fearful, and thus loyal, to a tyrannt. Today the tyrannt is not one person, but an entire ideology. No, that's not really accurate either, it's more a "subset" of our Political/Business "Ruling Class".

Fear not my fellow patriots, just as the last tyrannt was cast off, so too will this one.

 

[Picaro]

Guy, you don't seem to understand how this works. We don't have to prove anything. All we have to do is keep repeating it.

And the truth finaly comes out. You must feel so much freer now. Remeber, the truth shall set you free!!

This is exactly why discussing anything to do with principles or morals seriously with these neo-fascists is a giant waste of time and pointless; they're just astro-turfing trolls. People like joe and the rest don't even know or care they're establishment shills, they're bigots and sociopaths.

 

[Meane]

I am armed to the teeth with 2 rifles and a shotgun and a pistol and lots of ammo.

Anybody trying to arrest me is going to die trying so they better bring a big swat team.

I don't commit any crimes so there is no way they can ever have a valid warrant.

This isn't about how well you are armed or what you have or haven't done wrong.

Valid warrant? What's that? In a society where government can invade your privacy and destroy you with things they discover, it doesn't matter anyway. You're rights are gone.

This is about government misusing the power we gave them to protect us.

This is NOT cool.

And in his campaign Trump promised complete security. What did you think it means? You can't have everything for free. Liberty or security? pick, pick, pick.

You knew what you voted for... None sense but you thought you knew. So you gotta face up to it.

 

[Boss]

And in his campaign Trump promised complete security. What did you think it means? You can't have everything for free. Liberty or security? pick, pick, pick.

You knew what you voted for... None sense but you thought you knew. So you gotta face up to it.

I don't have any idea what you're rambling about. I didn't vote for Trump or Hillary but this isn't about my politics. It's also not about liberty and security. It's about the government exploiting the tools they have for fighting foreign enemies to damage domestic political enemies.

You see, some of us think that's seriously wrong and people need to go to prison for it, if it happened. Others don't seem to be bothered by it and actually think it's more important to look at the results. If our government is to the point of power that our 4th Amendment rights no longer exist, we have a constitutional crisis.

Regardless of your politics, this cannot stand.

 

[L Irene]

I'm genuinely not sure how much evidence there is of problematic collusion between Trump and Russia. (I know there were technically-illegal things done, but according to the evidence I've seen, they were at least as illegal as jaywalking, and possibly no moreso.)

But in the abstract, here is a question:
Suppose hypothetically a candidate for president, who then became president - apparently by legitimate election - had indeed colluded to steal the election with a foreign power. What legal mechanism is in place for finding this out and dealing with it? Is there an amount of evidence that would warrant an investigation of the type we are seeing? If not, then what kind of response would be effective (as in, prevent treason) and safe (as in, keep Niemoeller and like-minded people from spurious investigations of treason)?

 

[debbiedowner]

And in his campaign Trump promised complete security. What did you think it means? You can't have everything for free. Liberty or security? pick, pick, pick.

You knew what you voted for... None sense but you thought you knew. So you gotta face up to it.

I don't have any idea what you're rambling about. I didn't vote for Trump or Hillary but this isn't about my politics. It's also not about liberty and security. It's about the government exploiting the tools they have for fighting foreign enemies to damage domestic political enemies.

You see, some of us think that's seriously wrong and people need to go to prison for it, if it happened. Others don't seem to be bothered by it and actually think it's more important to look at the results. If our government is to the point of power that our 4th Amendment rights no longer exist, we have a constitutional crisis.

Regardless of your politics, this cannot stand.

I don't know how old you are boss but ever since J Edgar Hoover and probably before the American people have been spied upon. I don't much care for it and that's what some of the demonstrations were above back in the 60's.

 

[Boss]

I don't know how old you are boss but ever since J Edgar Hoover and probably before the American people have been spied upon. I don't much care for it and that's what some of the demonstrations were above back in the 60's.

I'm 57, and even with the most recent powers given to the government to spy on us, there is a system of jurisprudence and oversight to protect the constitutional rights of American citizens.

As I recall, the protests in the 60s were about "The Man" as libs stood firmly against the establishment and pushed back against government power. It's ironic those same liberals now push for more government power through establishment politics.

 

[debbiedowner]

The protests were just about everything, some just went to get free marijuana, then the Vietnam and Hoover, the man lol you name it someone wanted to protest.

I do agree though we deserve a right to privacy. Yea, I suppose if I had a certain name or from a middle eastern country I might expect someone is spying on me. All these agencies can tap into me anytime they want, now that po's me.

 

[Dan Stubbs]

Let me start by saying that I can easily believe our intelligence agencies have spied on US citizens, both legally and illegally. If one or more intelligence agencies were used as a political tool to spy on opponents, I am not comfortable with that.

However, I'm not sure just what you mean by saying "we have now confirmed it happened." Are you talking about the statements from Nunes?

Got to be a Progressive, started out lets not get political and then jumps right into the Trump Russia thing.

 

[2aguy]

Set aside your partisanship for a minute please. I realize, if you are a Democrat, all this Trump/Russia Collusion narrative is like a basketball game and you're in "full court press" here. You think this is some huge scandal that will eventually bring Trump down and you're blind to anything that interferes with that narrative. I get that.... but let me ask you, as an American citizen, ARE you comfortable with our national intelligence apparatus being used by government officials to spy on their political adversaries?

Regardless of your politics, in the past few weeks, we know for certain that private citizens have been spied on and their names were leaked to the media. What's more, these private citizens just so happened to be part of a political administration in the middle of a campaign. This is a serious breach of protocol and felonious but we have now confirmed it happened. The FBI, CIA and NSA are being very tight-lipped and recalcitrant in their responses to congressional questioning on the matter.

Now, what the motivations were, who ordered it, the value of the information to the public... that's not my concern here. We The People made a deal with The Government to give them the tools they requested in order to protect our national security. MANY Libertarians objected to this profusely but we felt it was in our best interests in the wake of 9/11. That "deal" was, we are going to give you this powerful authority but you are going to ensure that it's not abused and that the privacy of American citizens will be protected. Something has gone terribly wrong, and it's time for American citizens to rethink this whole thing.

I don't care what "SIDE" you're on here. Your politics have nothing to do with this. You HAVE to be concerned with our national security apparatus being used to spy on political enemies.... that's a Banana Republic. That's exactly what THEY do. This is a rabbit hole we cannot go down, no matter how tempting it may be for political expediency.

How can you say that politics don't matter........it is obvious that obama and the democrats used the intelligence gathering apparatus to spy on not only Trump but now we find out, on Republican politicians......and it also looks like obama used foriegn intelligence services..including the British GCHQ to spy on Trump.......

How is that now relevant?

 

[Syriusly]

Set aside your partisanship for a minute please. I realize, if you are a Democrat, .

Set aside your partisanship for minute please- I realize that if you are a Republican you are a corrupt traitor who hates America- but set aside your partisanship for a minute.

LOL- seriously- if you want to get past partisanship- perhaps you shouldn't go partisan in your first sentence?

 

[Boss]

Set aside your partisanship for a minute please. I realize, if you are a Democrat, all this Trump/Russia Collusion narrative is like a basketball game and you're in "full court press" here. You think this is some huge scandal that will eventually bring Trump down and you're blind to anything that interferes with that narrative. I get that.... but let me ask you, as an American citizen, ARE you comfortable with our national intelligence apparatus being used by government officials to spy on their political adversaries?

Regardless of your politics, in the past few weeks, we know for certain that private citizens have been spied on and their names were leaked to the media. What's more, these private citizens just so happened to be part of a political administration in the middle of a campaign. This is a serious breach of protocol and felonious but we have now confirmed it happened. The FBI, CIA and NSA are being very tight-lipped and recalcitrant in their responses to congressional questioning on the matter.

Now, what the motivations were, who ordered it, the value of the information to the public... that's not my concern here. We The People made a deal with The Government to give them the tools they requested in order to protect our national security. MANY Libertarians objected to this profusely but we felt it was in our best interests in the wake of 9/11. That "deal" was, we are going to give you this powerful authority but you are going to ensure that it's not abused and that the privacy of American citizens will be protected. Something has gone terribly wrong, and it's time for American citizens to rethink this whole thing.

I don't care what "SIDE" you're on here. Your politics have nothing to do with this. You HAVE to be concerned with our national security apparatus being used to spy on political enemies.... that's a Banana Republic. That's exactly what THEY do. This is a rabbit hole we cannot go down, no matter how tempting it may be for political expediency.

How can you say that politics don't matter........it is obvious that obama and the democrats used the intelligence gathering apparatus to spy on not only Trump but now we find out, on Republican politicians......and it also looks like obama used foriegn intelligence services..including the British GCHQ to spy on Trump.......

How is that now relevant?

I didn't say it's not relevant. It shouldn't matter what your affiliation is. But the left doesn't seem to care as long as it benefits them. As long as it's their people doing the spying, they couldn't care less.