CDZ NSA, CIA, FBI Spying on American Citizens

[Boss]

Set aside your partisanship for a minute please. I realize, if you are a Democrat, all this Trump/Russia Collusion narrative is like a basketball game and you're in "full court press" here. You think this is some huge scandal that will eventually bring Trump down and you're blind to anything that interferes with that narrative. I get that.... but let me ask you, as an American citizen, ARE you comfortable with our national intelligence apparatus being used by government officials to spy on their political adversaries?

Regardless of your politics, in the past few weeks, we know for certain that private citizens have been spied on and their names were leaked to the media. What's more, these private citizens just so happened to be part of a political administration in the middle of a campaign. This is a serious breach of protocol and felonious but we have now confirmed it happened. The FBI, CIA and NSA are being very tight-lipped and recalcitrant in their responses to congressional questioning on the matter.

Now, what the motivations were, who ordered it, the value of the information to the public... that's not my concern here. We The People made a deal with The Government to give them the tools they requested in order to protect our national security. MANY Libertarians objected to this profusely but we felt it was in our best interests in the wake of 9/11. That "deal" was, we are going to give you this powerful authority but you are going to ensure that it's not abused and that the privacy of American citizens will be protected. Something has gone terribly wrong, and it's time for American citizens to rethink this whole thing.

I don't care what "SIDE" you're on here. Your politics have nothing to do with this. You HAVE to be concerned with our national security apparatus being used to spy on political enemies.... that's a Banana Republic. That's exactly what THEY do. This is a rabbit hole we cannot go down, no matter how tempting it may be for political expediency.

 

[waltky]

Granny says if dey peek inna window...

... when she undressin'...

... she gonna bend over...

... an' tell `em to have a good look.

 

[JoeB131]

I don't care what "SIDE" you're on here. Your politics have nothing to do with this. You HAVE to be concerned with our national security apparatus being used to spy on political enemies.... that's a Banana Republic. That's exactly what THEY do. This is a rabbit hole we cannot go down, no matter how tempting it may be for political expediency.

If Trump was dealing with the Russians, he should be impeached.

Period.

How we found out about this - you know, other than the fact that most of his guys having ties to the Russians is pretty much in the open- is irrelevant.

It wasn't like your side didn't know what Trump was when you nominated him and voted for him and let him proceed to the presidency even though the people said "No" pretty loudly.

 

[Montrovant]

Let me start by saying that I can easily believe our intelligence agencies have spied on US citizens, both legally and illegally. If one or more intelligence agencies were used as a political tool to spy on opponents, I am not comfortable with that.

However, I'm not sure just what you mean by saying "we have now confirmed it happened." Are you talking about the statements from Nunes?

 

[BULLDOG]

Set aside your partisanship for a minute please. I realize, if you are a Democrat, all this Trump/Russia Collusion narrative is like a basketball game and you're in "full court press" here. You think this is some huge scandal that will eventually bring Trump down and you're blind to anything that interferes with that narrative. I get that.... but let me ask you, as an American citizen, ARE you comfortable with our national intelligence apparatus being used by government officials to spy on their political adversaries?

Regardless of your politics, in the past few weeks, we know for certain that private citizens have been spied on and their names were leaked to the media. What's more, these private citizens just so happened to be part of a political administration in the middle of a campaign. This is a serious breach of protocol and felonious but we have now confirmed it happened. The FBI, CIA and NSA are being very tight-lipped and recalcitrant in their responses to congressional questioning on the matter.

Now, what the motivations were, who ordered it, the value of the information to the public... that's not my concern here. We The People made a deal with The Government to give them the tools they requested in order to protect our national security. MANY Libertarians objected to this profusely but we felt it was in our best interests in the wake of 9/11. That "deal" was, we are going to give you this powerful authority but you are going to ensure that it's not abused and that the privacy of American citizens will be protected. Something has gone terribly wrong, and it's time for American citizens to rethink this whole thing.

I don't care what "SIDE" you're on here. Your politics have nothing to do with this. You HAVE to be concerned with our national security apparatus being used to spy on political enemies.... that's a Banana Republic. That's exactly what THEY do. This is a rabbit hole we cannot go down, no matter how tempting it may be for political expediency.

You seem to think any investigation of Trump and his campaign personnel was purely for political reasons. If it was for purely political reasons, I would agree it was an abuse of power,and there should be jail time for all that participated.

However,

Imagine that there was a hypothetical third party candidate, and it was proven that an adversarial country was hacking other candidates to find dirt and help that third party candidate. Also imagine that many of that candidate's people had direct connections to that other country, and they lied about having those connections. There would be no question as to whether our security agencies should investigate the potential treason being done.
Is there any reason why the hypothetical candidate should be investigated, but Trump should not? The situation is the same. It's been proven that Russia was hacking Podesta, and the DNC to find dirt on Hillary and help Trump. His staff has been shown to have lots of connections to Putin. His staff has been caught lying about their connections to Russia. There has been no public proof that Trump colluded with Putin, but our security agencies would be negligent to not find out just how far the connections between Trump and his people and Russia go.

 

[Boss]

You seem to think any investigation of Trump and his campaign personnel was purely for political reasons.

It does not matter if it was for political reasons or not. The information was certainly disclosed to the public and that is a serious violation of federal law. The fact that it appears to have been motivated by politics makes it worse but it doesn't matter WHY.

There has been no public proof that Trump colluded with Putin, but our security agencies would be negligent to not find out just how far the connections between Trump and his people and Russia go.

Again, this is not about whether intelligence agencies legitimately had a reason to run surveillance on someone. That is supposed to go through a FISA court process and a case made and warrants issued. This is not what the issue is here at all. The law prohibits any disclosure of identity of private American citizens under ANY circumstance. Unless the person in question is being charged with a specific crime and prosecution requires their name to be revealed in court, it supposed to remain masked. It's certainly not supposed to be shared throughout the government and leaked to the media.

To hell with the Russians trying to influence an election, we have agents in our own government using intelligence tools intended for national security to take down political enemies. That's a far more serious problem.

I get that you are all giddy that you think this is damaging Trump and you don't like Trump, but again, this is banana republic stuff. This is how rogue dictatorships operate. You can't be okay with that. If you are, there is something seriously wrong with you and you're not thinking this thing through clearly. How are you going to feel when it happens to the next big Democrat candidate in the midst of an election? How would you feel about it if someone used it on you to destroy your life? Because, if you let this go like it's no big deal, that's what's headed your way. NONE of us have privacy anymore, we are ALL subject to being spied on and having information about our private lives revealed to the media to destroy us. Are you seriously claiming you don't have the least bit of trouble with that?

 

[Boss]

Let me start by saying that I can easily believe our intelligence agencies have spied on US citizens, both legally and illegally. If one or more intelligence agencies were used as a political tool to spy on opponents, I am not comfortable with that.

However, I'm not sure just what you mean by saying "we have now confirmed it happened." Are you talking about the statements from Nunes?

Nunes simply confirmed it. We know that General Flynn had his private conversations monitored and leaked to the media. We also have had details of private phone conversations between Trump and the Australian president leaked. There are numerous other incidents as well.

Now, I have heard the argument that Flynn just happened to be picked up while monitoring the Russian ambassador... that doesn't authorize his name to be unmasked and revealed to the media. In fact, that's in itself is a major and flagrant violation of intelligence protocol.... JUST the unmasking of his name.

We need a special prosecutor here. It's time for a full-fledged investigation into every aspect of this entire ordeal. I have no problem with including any evidence of Trump and associates colluding or conspiring with Russia but the issue of how intelligence is being handled is of major importance and we need to find out some answers.

 

[Toronado3800]

Set aside your partisanship for a minute please. I realize, if you are a Democrat, all this Trump/Russia Collusion narrative is like a basketball game and you're in "full court press" here. You think this is some huge scandal that will eventually bring Trump down and you're blind to anything that interferes with that narrative. I get that.... but let me ask you, as an American citizen, ARE you comfortable with our national intelligence apparatus being used by government officials to spy on their political adversaries?

Regardless of your politics, in the past few weeks, we know for certain that private citizens have been spied on and their names were leaked to the media. What's more, these private citizens just so happened to be part of a political administration in the middle of a campaign. This is a serious breach of protocol and felonious but we have now confirmed it happened. The FBI, CIA and NSA are being very tight-lipped and recalcitrant in their responses to congressional questioning on the matter.

Now, what the motivations were, who ordered it, the value of the information to the public... that's not my concern here. We The People made a deal with The Government to give them the tools they requested in order to protect our national security. MANY Libertarians objected to this profusely but we felt it was in our best interests in the wake of 9/11. That "deal" was, we are going to give you this powerful authority but you are going to ensure that it's not abused and that the privacy of American citizens will be protected. Something has gone terribly wrong, and it's time for American citizens to rethink this whole thing.

I don't care what "SIDE" you're on here. Your politics have nothing to do with this. You HAVE to be concerned with our national security apparatus being used to spy on political enemies.... that's a Banana Republic. That's exactly what THEY do. This is a rabbit hole we cannot go down, no matter how tempting it may be for political expediency.

This is a battle which has been being lost since the 1970's I fear and no one seems to care. The Patriot Act following 9/11 was the climatic battler.

 

[jwoodie]

The Patriot Act following 9/11 was the climatic battler.

Global warming?

 

[yiostheoy]

Set aside your partisanship for a minute please. I realize, if you are a Democrat, all this Trump/Russia Collusion narrative is like a basketball game and you're in "full court press" here. You think this is some huge scandal that will eventually bring Trump down and you're blind to anything that interferes with that narrative. I get that.... but let me ask you, as an American citizen, ARE you comfortable with our national intelligence apparatus being used by government officials to spy on their political adversaries?

Regardless of your politics, in the past few weeks, we know for certain that private citizens have been spied on and their names were leaked to the media. What's more, these private citizens just so happened to be part of a political administration in the middle of a campaign. This is a serious breach of protocol and felonious but we have now confirmed it happened. The FBI, CIA and NSA are being very tight-lipped and recalcitrant in their responses to congressional questioning on the matter.

Now, what the motivations were, who ordered it, the value of the information to the public... that's not my concern here. We The People made a deal with The Government to give them the tools they requested in order to protect our national security. MANY Libertarians objected to this profusely but we felt it was in our best interests in the wake of 9/11. That "deal" was, we are going to give you this powerful authority but you are going to ensure that it's not abused and that the privacy of American citizens will be protected. Something has gone terribly wrong, and it's time for American citizens to rethink this whole thing.

I don't care what "SIDE" you're on here. Your politics have nothing to do with this. You HAVE to be concerned with our national security apparatus being used to spy on political enemies.... that's a Banana Republic. That's exactly what THEY do. This is a rabbit hole we cannot go down, no matter how tempting it may be for political expediency.

We (the USA and Europe) are involved in a jihad by Islamic fanatics.

So to protect our lives our governments need to spy.

I am good with their spying.

There is nothing I am doing that I am worried about them hearing.

I don't cook meth, I don't deal dope, I don't steal, I don't do crime.

So I am simply not worried about surveillance.

I am a bit worried about warrantless entry. In that case I would probably end up dead after shooting anyone trying to make a warrantless entry. But my state does not allow warrantless entries.

And even with warrants my state does not allow violent entries like California and/or New York State etc.

So everybody worries about something, and surveillance is not one of the things I worry about.

 

[yiostheoy]

Set aside your partisanship for a minute please. I realize, if you are a Democrat, all this Trump/Russia Collusion narrative is like a basketball game and you're in "full court press" here. You think this is some huge scandal that will eventually bring Trump down and you're blind to anything that interferes with that narrative. I get that.... but let me ask you, as an American citizen, ARE you comfortable with our national intelligence apparatus being used by government officials to spy on their political adversaries?

Regardless of your politics, in the past few weeks, we know for certain that private citizens have been spied on and their names were leaked to the media. What's more, these private citizens just so happened to be part of a political administration in the middle of a campaign. This is a serious breach of protocol and felonious but we have now confirmed it happened. The FBI, CIA and NSA are being very tight-lipped and recalcitrant in their responses to congressional questioning on the matter.

Now, what the motivations were, who ordered it, the value of the information to the public... that's not my concern here. We The People made a deal with The Government to give them the tools they requested in order to protect our national security. MANY Libertarians objected to this profusely but we felt it was in our best interests in the wake of 9/11. That "deal" was, we are going to give you this powerful authority but you are going to ensure that it's not abused and that the privacy of American citizens will be protected. Something has gone terribly wrong, and it's time for American citizens to rethink this whole thing.

I don't care what "SIDE" you're on here. Your politics have nothing to do with this. You HAVE to be concerned with our national security apparatus being used to spy on political enemies.... that's a Banana Republic. That's exactly what THEY do. This is a rabbit hole we cannot go down, no matter how tempting it may be for political expediency.

This is a battle which has been being lost since the 1970's I fear and no one seems to care. The Patriot Act following 9/11 was the climatic battler.

9-11-2001 ... that should have been your clue then ... moosleems from Arabia that hate you and want to reach out and touch you so they can kill you and get their 72 virgins with firm breasts in their Heaven.

Clue ... .

 

[yiostheoy]

Let me start by saying that I can easily believe our intelligence agencies have spied on US citizens, both legally and illegally. If one or more intelligence agencies were used as a political tool to spy on opponents, I am not comfortable with that.

However, I'm not sure just what you mean by saying "we have now confirmed it happened." Are you talking about the statements from Nunes?

Nunes simply confirmed it. We know that General Flynn had his private conversations monitored and leaked to the media. We also have had details of private phone conversations between Trump and the Australian president leaked. There are numerous other incidents as well.

Now, I have heard the argument that Flynn just happened to be picked up while monitoring the Russian ambassador... that doesn't authorize his name to be unmasked and revealed to the media. In fact, that's in itself is a major and flagrant violation of intelligence protocol.... JUST the unmasking of his name.

We need a special prosecutor here. It's time for a full-fledged investigation into every aspect of this entire ordeal. I have no problem with including any evidence of Trump and associates colluding or conspiring with Russia but the issue of how intelligence is being handled is of major importance and we need to find out some answers.

Surprise surprise.

Were you watching the news on Tuesday morning 9/11/2001 ??

 

[Boss]

Set aside your partisanship for a minute please. I realize, if you are a Democrat, all this Trump/Russia Collusion narrative is like a basketball game and you're in "full court press" here. You think this is some huge scandal that will eventually bring Trump down and you're blind to anything that interferes with that narrative. I get that.... but let me ask you, as an American citizen, ARE you comfortable with our national intelligence apparatus being used by government officials to spy on their political adversaries?

Regardless of your politics, in the past few weeks, we know for certain that private citizens have been spied on and their names were leaked to the media. What's more, these private citizens just so happened to be part of a political administration in the middle of a campaign. This is a serious breach of protocol and felonious but we have now confirmed it happened. The FBI, CIA and NSA are being very tight-lipped and recalcitrant in their responses to congressional questioning on the matter.

Now, what the motivations were, who ordered it, the value of the information to the public... that's not my concern here. We The People made a deal with The Government to give them the tools they requested in order to protect our national security. MANY Libertarians objected to this profusely but we felt it was in our best interests in the wake of 9/11. That "deal" was, we are going to give you this powerful authority but you are going to ensure that it's not abused and that the privacy of American citizens will be protected. Something has gone terribly wrong, and it's time for American citizens to rethink this whole thing.

I don't care what "SIDE" you're on here. Your politics have nothing to do with this. You HAVE to be concerned with our national security apparatus being used to spy on political enemies.... that's a Banana Republic. That's exactly what THEY do. This is a rabbit hole we cannot go down, no matter how tempting it may be for political expediency.

We (the USA and Europe) are involved in a jihad by Islamic fanatics.

So to protect our lives our governments need to spy.

I am good with their spying.

There is nothing I am doing that I am worried about them hearing.

I don't cook meth, I don't deal dope, I don't steal, I don't do crime.

So I am simply not worried about surveillance.

I am a bit worried about warrantless entry. In that case I would probably end up dead after shooting anyone trying to make a warrantless entry. But my state does not allow warrantless entries.

And even with warrants my state does not allow violent entries like California and/or New York State etc.

So everybody worries about something, and surveillance is not one of the things I worry about.

In the wise words of Martin Niemöller:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

[Boss]

Surprise surprise.

Were you watching the news on Tuesday morning 9/11/2001 ??

I remember 9/11/01 very well. I remember after 9/11 when we gave government unprecedented power to eavesdrop on Americans under the condition they absolutely ensured privacy and extreme discretion. And even then, under complete and honest compliance with FISA courts and regulations to further ensure privacy.

One of the most major political regrets of my life is that I supported it at the time.

I should've listened to all my Libertarian friends who were defiantly opposed.

 

[yiostheoy]

Surprise surprise.

Were you watching the news on Tuesday morning 9/11/2001 ??

I remember 9/11/01 very well. I remember after 9/11 when we gave government unprecedented power to eavesdrop on Americans under the condition they absolutely ensured privacy and extreme discretion. And even then, under complete and honest compliance with FISA courts and regulations to further ensure privacy.

One of the most major political regrets of my life is that I supported it at the time.

I should've listened to all my Libertarian friends who were defiantly opposed.

Well nothing has changed much since 9-11.

Arab moosleems are still trying to kill us.

Whenever a US drone strike fires a million dollar guided missile and kills one or more of their leadership then another cockroach just takes his place.

And they are not all dead yet.

Maybe someday. But not yet.

 

[yiostheoy]

Set aside your partisanship for a minute please. I realize, if you are a Democrat, all this Trump/Russia Collusion narrative is like a basketball game and you're in "full court press" here. You think this is some huge scandal that will eventually bring Trump down and you're blind to anything that interferes with that narrative. I get that.... but let me ask you, as an American citizen, ARE you comfortable with our national intelligence apparatus being used by government officials to spy on their political adversaries?

Regardless of your politics, in the past few weeks, we know for certain that private citizens have been spied on and their names were leaked to the media. What's more, these private citizens just so happened to be part of a political administration in the middle of a campaign. This is a serious breach of protocol and felonious but we have now confirmed it happened. The FBI, CIA and NSA are being very tight-lipped and recalcitrant in their responses to congressional questioning on the matter.

Now, what the motivations were, who ordered it, the value of the information to the public... that's not my concern here. We The People made a deal with The Government to give them the tools they requested in order to protect our national security. MANY Libertarians objected to this profusely but we felt it was in our best interests in the wake of 9/11. That "deal" was, we are going to give you this powerful authority but you are going to ensure that it's not abused and that the privacy of American citizens will be protected. Something has gone terribly wrong, and it's time for American citizens to rethink this whole thing.

I don't care what "SIDE" you're on here. Your politics have nothing to do with this. You HAVE to be concerned with our national security apparatus being used to spy on political enemies.... that's a Banana Republic. That's exactly what THEY do. This is a rabbit hole we cannot go down, no matter how tempting it may be for political expediency.

We (the USA and Europe) are involved in a jihad by Islamic fanatics.

So to protect our lives our governments need to spy.

I am good with their spying.

There is nothing I am doing that I am worried about them hearing.

I don't cook meth, I don't deal dope, I don't steal, I don't do crime.

So I am simply not worried about surveillance.

I am a bit worried about warrantless entry. In that case I would probably end up dead after shooting anyone trying to make a warrantless entry. But my state does not allow warrantless entries.

And even with warrants my state does not allow violent entries like California and/or New York State etc.

So everybody worries about something, and surveillance is not one of the things I worry about.

In the wise words of Martin Niemöller:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Yah I remember that poem.

I am armed to the teeth with 2 rifles and a shotgun and a pistol and lots of ammo.

Anybody trying to arrest me is going to die trying so they better bring a big swat team.

I don't commit any crimes so there is no way they can ever have a valid warrant.

 

[Boss]

I am armed to the teeth with 2 rifles and a shotgun and a pistol and lots of ammo.

Anybody trying to arrest me is going to die trying so they better bring a big swat team.

I don't commit any crimes so there is no way they can ever have a valid warrant.

This isn't about how well you are armed or what you have or haven't done wrong.

Valid warrant? What's that? In a society where government can invade your privacy and destroy you with things they discover, it doesn't matter anyway. You're rights are gone.

This is about government misusing the power we gave them to protect us.

This is NOT cool.

 

[JoeB131]

This isn't about how well you are armed or what you have or haven't done wrong.

Valid warrant? What's that? In a society where government can invade your privacy and destroy you with things they discover, it doesn't matter anyway. You're rights are gone.

This is about government misusing the power we gave them to protect us.

This is NOT cool.

guy, corporations (you know, those entities you worship) have more data on us than the government does. I don't spend time worrying about it.

The issue here is not whether or not the government was being a bunch of meanies by spying on Biff and friends.

It is that Biff and his buddies were conspiring with Putin.

 

[Boss]

This isn't about how well you are armed or what you have or haven't done wrong.

Valid warrant? What's that? In a society where government can invade your privacy and destroy you with things they discover, it doesn't matter anyway. You're rights are gone.

This is about government misusing the power we gave them to protect us.

This is NOT cool.

guy, corporations (you know, those entities you worship) have more data on us than the government does. I don't spend time worrying about it.

The issue here is not whether or not the government was being a bunch of meanies by spying on Biff and friends.

It is that Biff and his buddies were conspiring with Putin.

I can imagine if this were have come out on Bush spying on Obama's new transition team with NSA tools, you'd be fine with that too... right?

 

[Picaro]

Set aside your partisanship for a minute please. I realize, if you are a Democrat, all this Trump/Russia Collusion narrative is like a basketball game and you're in "full court press" here. You think this is some huge scandal that will eventually bring Trump down and you're blind to anything that interferes with that narrative. I get that.... but let me ask you, as an American citizen, ARE you comfortable with our national intelligence apparatus being used by government officials to spy on their political adversaries?

Regardless of your politics, in the past few weeks, we know for certain that private citizens have been spied on and their names were leaked to the media. What's more, these private citizens just so happened to be part of a political administration in the middle of a campaign. This is a serious breach of protocol and felonious but we have now confirmed it happened. The FBI, CIA and NSA are being very tight-lipped and recalcitrant in their responses to congressional questioning on the matter.

Now, what the motivations were, who ordered it, the value of the information to the public... that's not my concern here. We The People made a deal with The Government to give them the tools they requested in order to protect our national security. MANY Libertarians objected to this profusely but we felt it was in our best interests in the wake of 9/11. That "deal" was, we are going to give you this powerful authority but you are going to ensure that it's not abused and that the privacy of American citizens will be protected. Something has gone terribly wrong, and it's time for American citizens to rethink this whole thing.

I don't care what "SIDE" you're on here. Your politics have nothing to do with this. You HAVE to be concerned with our national security apparatus being used to spy on political enemies.... that's a Banana Republic. That's exactly what THEY do. This is a rabbit hole we cannot go down, no matter how tempting it may be for political expediency.

It's cultural problem. When the pool of people you have to hire from is increasingly unpatriotic, amoral and unprincipled, then it doesn't matter much whether or not what laws, rules, and administrative procedures you invent, they will be corrupted and ignored for personal gain and influence. this is a fundamental fact both right and left wing ideologues are oblivious to, and pseudo-intellectual 'rationalist' hand waves and ad hoc ideological reductionism isn't going to fix anything.

Elect unpatriotic egotistical sociopaths and narcissists and you get what you actually voted for, not what your rhetoric claims you voted for and supported.