Next time you hear someone criticizing socialism...

[the other mike]

Oh look Martha....The smart kids are online . Lucky me.
Wonder what sort of disinformation I can absorb today.

 

[Andylusion]

Well, I already caught one bold lie they told, about their actions in Libya involving oil. Having researched oil production for decades, to debate eco-freaks, I know their claims about magic enzymes is wrong.

Whatever you say, Huckleberry.
I'm sure they're sticking their necks out with the fucking CIA
to make up some shit like that.

I believe you are lying.

Yup, you got me....

 

[the other mike]

Who cares about clean oil refineries and pipelines, right andy? There's no profit in that.

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[the other mike]

In the 1940s, economist Friedrich Hayek said in his book, "The Road to Serfdom," that the road to serfdom was socialism. Economist Joseph Schumpeter, in "Capitalism, Socialism, and Democracy," feared that socialism would displace capitalism even though capitalism was a better system.

In the 21st century, self-proclaimed socialists like Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) are keeping the fears of Hayek and Schumpeter alive. Those fears are misplaced. The biggest threats to capitalism aren’t socialists, they are capitalists.

Capitalists, not socialists, pose the greatest threat to capitalism

When capitalists tout pro-business policies, they inevitably are talking about policies that use trade barriers and regulatory impediments to give themselves advantages over competitors.

They work the political process to get subsidies and tax breaks that benefit themselves but impose costs on everyone else. Policies advertised as “pro-business” are almost always anti-free market and anti-capitalism.

Political capitalism encroaches upon free-market capitalism because public policy is made by an elite few who have an incentive to use the policy-making process for their benefit. Think about the Occupy Wall Street language in which public policy benefits the 1 percent at the expense of the 99 percent.

But critics of our current system, including socialists, too often want more government programs and more government oversight to remedy that problem. These critics should recognize that an elite few create public policy; giving the government more oversight power means giving more power to the 1 percent.

 

[the other mike]

( from the above article)
The way to preserve the prosperity that has come with free markets is to limit government and sever the connections between the economic and political elite — to return to a system in which cronyism and political connections do not enhance business profitability.

 

[LuckyDuck]

Ask them how well capitalism was doing in 1929.
View attachment 245504 View attachment 245506 View attachment 245505

To the extent that capitalism’s problems – inequality, instability (cycles/crises), etc. – stem in part from its production relationships, reforms focused exclusively on regulating or supplanting markets will not succeed in solving them. For example, Keynesian monetary policies (focused on raising or lowering the quantity of money in circulation and, correspondingly, interest rates) do not touch the employer-employee relationship, however much their variations redistribute wealth, regulate markets, or displace markets in favor of state-administered investment decisions. Likewise, Keynesian fiscal policies (raising or lowering taxes and government spending) do not address the employer-employee relationship.

Keynesian policies also never ended the cyclical instability of capitalism. The New Deal and European social democracy left capitalism in place in both state and private units (enterprises) of production notwithstanding their massive reform agendas and programs. They thereby left capitalist employers facing the incentives and receiving the resources (profits) to evade, weaken and eventually dissolve most of those programs.

It is far better not to distribute wealth unequally in the first place than to re-distribute it after to undo the inequality. For example, FDR proposed in 1944 that the government establish a maximum income alongside a minimum wage; that is one among the various ways inequality could be limited and thereby redistribution avoided. Efforts to redistribute encounter evasions, oppositions, and failures that compound the effects of unequal distribution itself. Social peace and cohesion are the victims of redistribution sooner or later. Reforming markets while leaving the relations/organization of capitalist production unchanged is like redistribution. Just as redistribution schemes fail to solve the problems rooted in distribution, market-focused reforms fail to solve the problems rooted in production.

Since 2008, capitalism has showed us all yet again its deep and unsolved problems of cyclical instability, deepening inequality and the injustices they both entail. Their persistence mirrors that of the capitalist organization of production. To successfully confront and solve the problems of economic cycles, income and wealth inequality, and so on, we need to go beyond the capitalist employer-employee system of production. The democratization of enterprises – transitioning from employer-employee hierarchies to worker cooperatives – is a key way available here and now to realize the change we need.

Worker coops democratically decide the distribution of income (wages, bonuses, benefits, profit shares, etc.) among their members. No small group of owners and the boards of directors they choose would, as in capitalist corporations, make such decisions. Thus, for example, it would be far less likely that a few individuals in a worker coop would earn millions while most others could not afford to send children to college. A democratic worker coop decision on the distribution of enterprise income would be far less unequal than what typifies capitalist enterprises. A socialism for the 21st century could and should include the transition from a capitalist to a worker-coop-based economic system as central to its commitments to less inequality and less social conflict over redistribution.

Capitalism Is Not the “Market System”



An OP should be 3-4 paragraphs, link, content.
Angelo

Copyright. Link Each "Copy & Paste" to It's Source. Only paste a small to medium section of the material.

USMB Rules and Guidelines

Talk to all those who fled socialist and communist nations and you won't get a flattering review. Bernie Sanders has publicly said that "bread lines are good as they ensure that all will get bread and no one goes hungry." However, when you speak to those that actually went through in their old countries, said that "if you don't get in line early, they run out of bread and you go home hungry."

 

[the other mike]

Talk to all those who fled socialist and communist nations and you won't get a flattering review. Bernie Sanders has publicly said that "bread lines are good as they ensure that all will get bread and no one goes hungry." However, when you speak to those that actually went through in their old countries, said that "if you don't get in line early, they run out of bread and you go home hungry."

^^
Ignores my last 3 posts with more of the same canned talking points that clutter up most of the 80-something pages of this thread.

SMHAWAD
( shaking my head and walking away disappointed)

 

[dblack]

Talk to all those who fled socialist and communist nations and you won't get a flattering review. Bernie Sanders has publicly said that "bread lines are good as they ensure that all will get bread and no one goes hungry." However, when you speak to those that actually went through in their old countries, said that "if you don't get in line early, they run out of bread and you go home hungry."

^^
Ignores my last 3 posts with more of the same canned talking points that clutter up most of the 80-something pages of this thread.

SMHAWAD
( shaking my head and walking away disappointed)

But can you blame them? You started this thread cheerleading for socialism, and now you sound like a libertarian. What are you playing at?

 

[the other mike]

But can you blame them? You started this thread cheerleading for socialism, and now you sound like a libertarian. What are you playing at?

My OP speaks for itself and
my views haven't changed.

Next.

 

[dblack]

But can you blame them? You started this thread cheerleading for socialism, and now you sound like a libertarian. What are you playing at?

My OP speaks for itself and
my views haven't changed.

Next.

Why the evasion? It's a legitimate question.

 

[the other mike]

But can you blame them? You started this thread cheerleading for socialism, and now you sound like a libertarian. What are you playing at?

My OP speaks for itself and
my views haven't changed.

Next.

Evasion? It's a legitimate question.

Yes.

 

[dblack]

But can you blame them? You started this thread cheerleading for socialism, and now you sound like a libertarian. What are you playing at?

My OP speaks for itself and
my views haven't changed.

Next.

Evasion? It's a legitimate question.

Yes.

LOL - fair enough. If you can't be bothered to explain your point of view, I won't bother trying to unravel it. I'll just assume you're full of shit.

 

[the other mike]

I don't waste my time with trolls
And I'm not the one who keeps bumping this thread.

 

[P@triot]

there is no natural rate of unemployment under socialism only under capitalism. better planning could have made more personnel available to ensure sufficient supply to meet demand.

Then why do 100% of socialist nations collapse?

 

[P@triot]

Capitalism is unstable, unequal and fundamentally undemocratic.

That’s left-wing code for “I’m too fuck’n lazy to earn my own way through life”.

The fact is, capitalism has done more to raise the standard of living than everything else combined.

 

[the other mike]

Capitalism is unstable, unequal and fundamentally undemocratic.

That’s left-wing code for “I’m too fuck’n lazy to earn my own way through life”.

The fact is, capitalism has done more to raise the standard of living than everything else combined.

Speak for yourself.
I've been working since the day my mom and dad let me go around the neighborhood shoveling snow when I was 10. My neighbor Toby and I made $200 that weekend at $5 and $10 a driveway in 1971. 48 years later I could shovel the same # of driveways easily.

Don't you have some conspiracy theorists to troll on somewhere ?

 

[the other mike]

By the time I was 16 I had saved enough yard mowing, leaf raking, snow shoveling, babysitting and car washing money to buy my first car a black '77 Camaro.

Like this one.

 

[P@triot]

I've been working since the day my mom and dad let me go around the neighborhood shoveling snow when I was 10. My neighbor Toby and I made $200 that weekend at $5 and $10 a driveway in 1971. 48 years later I could shovel the same # of driveways easily.

The fuck you have. Nobody who actually goes out into the real world and busts their ass, calls for government to confiscate what they have earned and redistribute it to others. Nobody.

You’re a typical left-wing parasite. Lazy and ignorant.

 

[Oddball]

( from the above article)
The way to preserve the prosperity that has come with free markets is to limit government and sever the connections between the economic and political elite — to return to a system in which cronyism and political connections do not enhance business profitability.

At that point, they cease being capitalists and become corporatists/mercantilists/fascists.

Real capitalists have no need for, and in fact are repulsed by, aggression in the marketplace from The State.

 

[the other mike]

I've been working since the day my mom and dad let me go around the neighborhood shoveling snow when I was 10. My neighbor Toby and I made $200 that weekend at $5 and $10 a driveway in 1971. 48 years later I could shovel the same # of driveways easily.

The fuck you have. Nobody who actually goes out into the real world and busts their ass, calls for government to confiscate what they have earned and redistribute it to others. Nobody.

You’re a typical left-wing parasite. Lazy and ignorant.

Run along and take a deep breath before your pancreas explodes, my little personal troll.
Go back to your fairy tale existence and chase conspiracy theorists or banana theives.