Nelson Mandela dead

[bigrebnc1775]

And conversely, if you don't have justice on your side, you will be defeated - like the confederacy.

This is how the thread got closed the last time. But I will say justice is not on the side of the current government in America.

 

[Peterf]

If Tookie Williams could run a criminal enterprise from death row, Mandela could direct terrorist operations from a prison cell.

How can you be a terrorist when you are fighting for your countrys freedom from oppression?

From king Georges prospective the founders were also terrorist.

No they were not; they were rebels. Your founders did not order the indiscriminate murder of men, women and children or commit other acts designed to strike terror into the hearts of their opponents - which is what 'terrorism' is. The rough treatment of loyalists came later.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Regardless of who voted or what. It's a matter of representation. The U.S. government no longer represents the will of the people.

Which has what to do with the topic? Mandela is a hero and rightfully so for fighting against a government put in place by foreign invaders. You and your splinter cells want to overthrow a government voted in by it citizens. 2 vastly different things if you are searching for the same praise Mandela deserves for his accomplishments vs your day dreams.

Stop changing the subject, when your point of view has been countered. And then say what does it have to do with the topic. A government put in place by foreign invaders, is no different than a government that no longer represents the will of the people.
You can't cheer Mandela and turn around and condemn Americans for doing the exact same thing for the same reason.

The only parallel between the US and South Africa exists when it comes to the overthrow of an oppressive government that was not elected by the people was the Revolutionary War. In that respect Mandela is like George Washington. Your attempt to allege that the US government no longer represents the will of the people will be reported if you persist in trying to deflect from the OP.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Which has what to do with the topic? Mandela is a hero and rightfully so for fighting against a government put in place by foreign invaders. You and your splinter cells want to overthrow a government voted in by it citizens. 2 vastly different things if you are searching for the same praise Mandela deserves for his accomplishments vs your day dreams.

Stop changing the subject, when your point of view has been countered. And then say what does it have to do with the topic. A government put in place by foreign invaders, is no different than a government that no longer represents the will of the people.
You can't cheer Mandela and turn around and condemn Americans for doing the exact same thing for the same reason.

The only parallel between the US and South Africa exists when it comes to the overthrow of an oppressive government that was not elected by the people was the Revolutionary War. In that respect Mandela is like George Washington. Your attempt to allege that the US government no longer represents the will of the people will be reported if you persist in trying to deflect from the OP.

So a government that does not represent the will of the people and creates laws that strip it citizens of their rights is ok and should not be brought down?
OH and who controls the U.S. election system?

 

[paperview]

 

[rightwinger]

How can you be a terrorist when you are fighting for your countrys freedom from oppression?

From king Georges prospective the founders were also terrorist.

No they were not; they were rebels. Your founders did not order the indiscriminate murder of men, women and children or commit other acts designed to strike terror into the hearts of their opponents - which is what 'terrorism' is. The rough treatment of loyalists came later.

Our founders engaged in arson, lynching and tar and feathering of those who remained loyal to the crown.

 

[mal]

Mandela's Greatest Legacy is his Successful Fight to End Slavery and Genocide in the South of Africa... He certainly didn't Live like a King for the last couple of decades, regurgitating empty platitudes and hanging with Communists and Terrorists... Bravo, Saint Mandela... BRAVO!



peace...

 

[Peterf]

From king Georges prospective the founders were also terrorist.

No they were not; they were rebels. Your founders did not order the indiscriminate murder of men, women and children or commit other acts designed to strike terror into the hearts of their opponents - which is what 'terrorism' is. The rough treatment of loyalists came later.

Our founders engaged in arson, lynching and tar and feathering of those who remained loyal to the crown.

The - few? - lynchings of loyalists were targeted murder not indiscriminate murder and not, therefore, terrorism. And not, of course, aimed directly at the British.

 

[bodecea]

How can you be a terrorist when you are fighting for your countrys freedom from oppression?

From king Georges prospective the founders were also terrorist.

No they were not; they were rebels. Your founders did not order the indiscriminate murder of men, women and children or commit other acts designed to strike terror into the hearts of their opponents - which is what 'terrorism' is. The rough treatment of loyalists came later.

You didn't know much about what was happening in the South during the Revolution, did you?

 

[Derideo_Te]

No they were not; they were rebels. Your founders did not order the indiscriminate murder of men, women and children or commit other acts designed to strike terror into the hearts of their opponents - which is what 'terrorism' is. The rough treatment of loyalists came later.

Our founders engaged in arson, lynching and tar and feathering of those who remained loyal to the crown.

The - few? - lynchings of loyalists were targeted murder not indiscriminate murder and not, therefore, terrorism. And not, of course, aimed directly at the British.

The actions of the Sons of Liberty would classify them as terrorists under the definition that you applied to Mandela and the ANC.

 

[Asclepias]

Stop changing the subject, when your point of view has been countered. And then say what does it have to do with the topic. A government put in place by foreign invaders, is no different than a government that no longer represents the will of the people.
You can't cheer Mandela and turn around and condemn Americans for doing the exact same thing for the same reason.

The only parallel between the US and South Africa exists when it comes to the overthrow of an oppressive government that was not elected by the people was the Revolutionary War. In that respect Mandela is like George Washington. Your attempt to allege that the US government no longer represents the will of the people will be reported if you persist in trying to deflect from the OP.

So a government that does not represent the will of the people and creates laws that strip it citizens of their rights is ok and should not be brought down?
OH and who controls the U.S. election system?

You are stuck in a loop. XXXXXXX Your impending war against the US government elected by the people has nothing to do with Mandela's fight to overthrow a government imposed on his people.

 

[paperview]

George Washington was considered to be a terrorist by the British yanno...

​

 

[SGT_Kat]

My opinion on the man is still up in the air. I didn't know much about his so I've been doing a lot of research (I will not make an opinion on any person with out first learning about them). I do agree that his fight against the apartheid was very justified. The apartheid was pure evil. I commend his initial effort to keep the revolution non-violent.

However, there are some connections that have me worried. His greatest influences were Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong. He had connections with many communist parties and was inspired by Fidel Castro's 26th of July Movement in the Cuban Revolution to create the Umkhonto we Sizwe (MK). The MK at first only targeted gov and military installations, but started killing civilians in the 1980s. Mandela refuse to denounce these crimes against humanity by a group he started.

Again, I must learn more before I come to any conclusions about the man.

 

[Derideo_Te]

My opinion on the man is still up in the air. I didn't know much about his so I've been doing a lot of research (I will not make an opinion on any person with out first learning about them). I do agree that his fight against the apartheid was very justified. The apartheid was pure evil. I commend his initial effort to keep the revolution non-violent.

However, there are some connections that have me worried. His greatest influences were Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong. He had connections with many communist parties and was inspired by Fidel Castro's 26th of July Movement in the Cuban Revolution to create the Umkhonto we Sizwe (MK). The MK at first only targeted gov and military installations, but started killing civilians in the 1980s. Mandela refuse to denounce these crimes against humanity by a group he started.

Again, I must learn more before I come to any conclusions about the man.

You are wrong about his "greatest influences". He was raised a Christian and never reconciled his faith with communism. You might want to do some research in that direction.

As far as your second point goes you need some more background. The crimes committed by MK against civilians paled in comparison to the crimes committed by the South African Police (SAP) against civilians. In addition to that his refusal was because he was being placed in an untenable position by the Apartheid regime. They were offering him his "freedom" in exchange for using him as a political pawn against the MK. As a man of principle and intelligence Mandela saw through their ruse. That never stopped them from subsequently blaming him for crimes that he could have had absolutely no part in whatsoever.

Lastly using your term "crimes against humanity" as it pertained to MK was a drop in the ocean when compared to the obscene "crimes against humanity" that was daily horror of the brutal, and all too often fatal, oppression of Apartheid on millions of innocent black civilians.

 

[SGT_Kat]

My opinion on the man is still up in the air. I didn't know much about his so I've been doing a lot of research (I will not make an opinion on any person with out first learning about them). I do agree that his fight against the apartheid was very justified. The apartheid was pure evil. I commend his initial effort to keep the revolution non-violent.

However, there are some connections that have me worried. His greatest influences were Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong. He had connections with many communist parties and was inspired by Fidel Castro's 26th of July Movement in the Cuban Revolution to create the Umkhonto we Sizwe (MK). The MK at first only targeted gov and military installations, but started killing civilians in the 1980s. Mandela refuse to denounce these crimes against humanity by a group he started.

Again, I must learn more before I come to any conclusions about the man.

You are wrong about his "greatest influences". He was raised a Christian and never reconciled his faith with communism. You might want to do some research in that direction.

As far as your second point goes you need some more background. The crimes committed by MK against civilians paled in comparison to the crimes committed by the South African Police (SAP) against civilians. In addition to that his refusal was because he was being placed in an untenable position by the Apartheid regime. They were offering him his "freedom" in exchange for using him as a political pawn against the MK. As a man of principle and intelligence Mandela saw through their ruse. That never stopped them from subsequently blaming him for crimes that he could have had absolutely no part in whatsoever.

Lastly using your term "crimes against humanity" as it pertained to MK was a drop in the ocean when compared to the obscene "crimes against humanity" that was daily horror of the brutal, and all too often fatal, oppression of Apartheid on millions of innocent black civilians.

He was influenced by those individuals. It was written on several of his biographies. Here is one Nelson Mandela?s Living Legacy | Preparing for Defiance 1949-1952 | The South African

The Apartheid in it's entirety was a crime against humanity. I never said he was wrong in fighting against it. But at the same time, committing horrible acts of violence against innocent people is never justified.

 

[Derideo_Te]

My opinion on the man is still up in the air. I didn't know much about his so I've been doing a lot of research (I will not make an opinion on any person with out first learning about them). I do agree that his fight against the apartheid was very justified. The apartheid was pure evil. I commend his initial effort to keep the revolution non-violent.

However, there are some connections that have me worried. His greatest influences were Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong. He had connections with many communist parties and was inspired by Fidel Castro's 26th of July Movement in the Cuban Revolution to create the Umkhonto we Sizwe (MK). The MK at first only targeted gov and military installations, but started killing civilians in the 1980s. Mandela refuse to denounce these crimes against humanity by a group he started.

Again, I must learn more before I come to any conclusions about the man.

You are wrong about his "greatest influences". He was raised a Christian and never reconciled his faith with communism. You might want to do some research in that direction.

As far as your second point goes you need some more background. The crimes committed by MK against civilians paled in comparison to the crimes committed by the South African Police (SAP) against civilians. In addition to that his refusal was because he was being placed in an untenable position by the Apartheid regime. They were offering him his "freedom" in exchange for using him as a political pawn against the MK. As a man of principle and intelligence Mandela saw through their ruse. That never stopped them from subsequently blaming him for crimes that he could have had absolutely no part in whatsoever.

Lastly using your term "crimes against humanity" as it pertained to MK was a drop in the ocean when compared to the obscene "crimes against humanity" that was daily horror of the brutal, and all too often fatal, oppression of Apartheid on millions of innocent black civilians.

He was influenced by those individuals. It was written on several of his biographies. Here is one Nelson Mandela?s Living Legacy | Preparing for Defiance 1949-1952 | The South African

Yes, but they weren't "greatest influences" as you originally alleged them to be.

The Apartheid in it's entirety was a crime against humanity. I never said he was wrong in fighting against it. But at the same time, committing horrible acts of violence against innocent people is never justified.

Mandela never committed any of those "acts of violence against innocent people" .

 

[SGT_Kat]

You are wrong about his "greatest influences". He was raised a Christian and never reconciled his faith with communism. You might want to do some research in that direction.

As far as your second point goes you need some more background. The crimes committed by MK against civilians paled in comparison to the crimes committed by the South African Police (SAP) against civilians. In addition to that his refusal was because he was being placed in an untenable position by the Apartheid regime. They were offering him his "freedom" in exchange for using him as a political pawn against the MK. As a man of principle and intelligence Mandela saw through their ruse. That never stopped them from subsequently blaming him for crimes that he could have had absolutely no part in whatsoever.

Lastly using your term "crimes against humanity" as it pertained to MK was a drop in the ocean when compared to the obscene "crimes against humanity" that was daily horror of the brutal, and all too often fatal, oppression of Apartheid on millions of innocent black civilians.

He was influenced by those individuals. It was written on several of his biographies. Here is one Nelson Mandela?s Living Legacy | Preparing for Defiance 1949-1952 | The South African

Yes, but they weren't "greatest influences" as you originally alleged them to be.

The Apartheid in it's entirety was a crime against humanity. I never said he was wrong in fighting against it. But at the same time, committing horrible acts of violence against innocent people is never justified.

Mandela never committed any of those "acts of violence against innocent people" .

No, Mandela didn't, but his group did. Whether the gov was trying to use his denouncing of the violence as a political tool or not, he still should have. He could have used that opportunity to denounce the violence and the violence conducted by the government.

"Inspired by Fidel Castro's 26th of July Movement in the Cuban Revolution, in 1961 Mandela co-founded Umkhonto we Sizwe ("Spear of the Nation", abbreviated MK) with Sisulu and the communist Joe Slovo. Becoming chairman of the militant group, he gained ideas from illegal literature on guerilla warfare by Mao and Che Guevara. Officially separate from the ANC, in later years MK became the group's armed wing." I would say that at least Mao and Castro were some of the "greatest" influences. Mao is the most troubling considering he murdered millions.

 

[mal]

George Washington was considered to be a terrorist by the British yanno...

​

You've Hated America for what it is for most of your Life, haven't you...



peace...

 

[Derideo_Te]

He was influenced by those individuals. It was written on several of his biographies. Here is one Nelson Mandela?s Living Legacy | Preparing for Defiance 1949-1952 | The South African

Yes, but they weren't "greatest influences" as you originally alleged them to be.

The Apartheid in it's entirety was a crime against humanity. I never said he was wrong in fighting against it. But at the same time, committing horrible acts of violence against innocent people is never justified.

Mandela never committed any of those "acts of violence against innocent people" .

No, Mandela didn't, but his group did. Whether the gov was trying to use his denouncing of the violence as a political tool or not, he still should have. He could have used that opportunity to denounce the violence and the violence conducted by the government.

Unrealistic because the Apartheid regime would have censored what he said.

"Inspired by Fidel Castro's 26th of July Movement in the Cuban Revolution, in 1961 Mandela co-founded Umkhonto we Sizwe ("Spear of the Nation", abbreviated MK) with Sisulu and the communist Joe Slovo. Becoming chairman of the militant group, he gained ideas from illegal literature on guerilla warfare by Mao and Che Guevara. Officially separate from the ANC, in later years MK became the group's armed wing." I would say that at least Mao and Castro were some of the "greatest" influences. Mao is the most troubling considering he murdered millions.

Guilt by association now?

The events in the 1980s took place 25 years after he was made "chairman" and he was incommunicado for most of the time. He wasn't the only person reading those books and he most certainly wasn't training anyone on how to "kill millions".

 

[SGT_Kat]

Yes, but they weren't "greatest influences" as you originally alleged them to be.

Mandela never committed any of those "acts of violence against innocent people" .

No, Mandela didn't, but his group did. Whether the gov was trying to use his denouncing of the violence as a political tool or not, he still should have. He could have used that opportunity to denounce the violence and the violence conducted by the government.

Unrealistic because the Apartheid regime would have censored what he said.

"Inspired by Fidel Castro's 26th of July Movement in the Cuban Revolution, in 1961 Mandela co-founded Umkhonto we Sizwe ("Spear of the Nation", abbreviated MK) with Sisulu and the communist Joe Slovo. Becoming chairman of the militant group, he gained ideas from illegal literature on guerilla warfare by Mao and Che Guevara. Officially separate from the ANC, in later years MK became the group's armed wing." I would say that at least Mao and Castro were some of the "greatest" influences. Mao is the most troubling considering he murdered millions.

Guilt by association now?

The events in the 1980s took place 25 years after he was made "chairman" and he was incommunicado for most of the time. He wasn't the only person reading those books and he most certainly wasn't training anyone on how to "kill millions".

Like I already said, my opinion is not yet decided. He should not be separated from the group he created.