My thoughts on the Islamic world.

[Saigon]

What has Obama done very well?

1) Got the US out (or on the way out of) Iraq and Afghanistan.

2) Forged good relationships with the newer and more moderate regimes in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya without the loss of a single US life.

3) Established that the US is not a rampaging extremist state - which some Islamic media like to pretend it is.

 

[Katzndogz]

Democrats believe that if a religious war is imposed upon us, we should surrender immediately and prove we won't fight a religious war.

 

[Saigon]

Democrats believe that if a religious war is imposed upon us, we should surrender immediately and prove we won't fight a religious war.

You might also ask yourelf if the return for the past Middle Eastern wars has been worth the 4,000 US lives they cost.

It is one thing to be gung ho about fighting - quite another when one of your own children is sent to die a pointless death in a meaningless war.

 

[High_Gravity]

now you're making me hungry.

i have only really met one ethnic dish i didn't like. the koreans make this whole smelt dish, guts and all, where they have the whole fish cooked until it was stiff and crunchy, and it was cooked in some sort of carmalised syrup and sprinkled with sugar...which is freaking me out just thinkig about it.

Never had that, but I do like Korean food especially Kim Chi and Bulgogi.

Yukejang is the best.

Never had that, I will have to try it.

 

[High_Gravity]

What has Obama done very well?

1) Got the US out (or on the way out of) Iraq and Afghanistan.

2) Forged good relationships with the newer and more moderate regimes in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya without the loss of a single US life.

3) Established that the US is not a rampaging extremist state - which some Islamic media like to pretend it is.

Well after what happened this weekend in Libya and Egypt, I wouldn't go as far as to say without the cost of 1 US life.

 

[alpine]

What has Obama done very well?

1) Got the US out (or on the way out of) Iraq and Afghanistan.

2) Forged good relationships with the newer and more moderate regimes in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya without the loss of a single US life.

3) Established that the US is not a rampaging extremist state - which some Islamic media like to pretend it is.

1. What is tough pulling out of iraq or afghanistan? It is easy, you just send your ships and take all your guys abroad and ship ahoy...

The problem is, what happens when you pull out. I see those countries going to the more extreme side every day. Is not this the case? There will be a religious war breaking up in iraq any time now, with syria already in one. Afghanistan is already back in the hands of taliban. That started way before Obama took the office tho.

So there is no blame to Obama but, I don't see him doing anything, he simply just did nothing. Which is a good thing sometimes tho, better than doing worse things.

2. Debatable. You are talking about muslim brotherhood in egypt for instance. They have long and deep ties to terror that put all those countries into the path of destruction not so long ago. Al zavahiri was in muslim brotherhood. Sayyid Kutb, the guy started the flame in middle east was in muslim brotherhood. He was the one called vanguard to action, which brought terror and blood to the whole region.

So when you say "new moderate regimes" I highly doubt it, unless you have any facts behind this comment. I don't see any of those regimes being any moderate, unless there is a secular constitution in place, which egytptian muslim brotherhood already told they would not agree with one.

Cause islam is a religion that comes as a whole package. It has its own constitution in it which you can not contradict with.

This is not the first time muslim brotherhood have been to power in egypt and there is a reason those countries were run by secular dictators so far.

In 1980s when muslim brotherhood first won the elections(after the soviet war in afghanistan), they declared democracy no more, cause they did not need it, cause there was quran. So now they are back to power.

And yet relations with the turkish state, thats really controversial with all your comments. United states funding religious group taking over the country from secular modernists by the kick of their illegal activities. That's a complete failure for american policies I think. Obama may not have started it but have not done anything about it either.

3. Well, that's true. Muslims somehow like Obama more than Bush, maybe because of his middle name and his ties to muslim religion.

 

[Katzndogz]

Yes indeed muslims really like obama.

Poll finds Obama

Except even that's another lie from the failed obama regime.

 

[High_Gravity]

What has Obama done very well?

1) Got the US out (or on the way out of) Iraq and Afghanistan.

2) Forged good relationships with the newer and more moderate regimes in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya without the loss of a single US life.

3) Established that the US is not a rampaging extremist state - which some Islamic media like to pretend it is.

1. What is tough pulling out of iraq or afghanistan? It is easy, you just send your ships and take all your guys abroad and ship ahoy...
.

You obviously have zero Military experience, there is alot more to a complete pull out that just "sending ships", you have to take out the supplies, vehicles, weapons, destroy intel, decide what you are leaving with the locals etc etc this is not as easy as packing your shit in a Uhaul and moving to a new apartment son.

 

[alpine]

1) Got the US out (or on the way out of) Iraq and Afghanistan.

2) Forged good relationships with the newer and more moderate regimes in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya without the loss of a single US life.

3) Established that the US is not a rampaging extremist state - which some Islamic media like to pretend it is.

1. What is tough pulling out of iraq or afghanistan? It is easy, you just send your ships and take all your guys abroad and ship ahoy...
.

You obviously have zero Military experience, there is alot more to a complete pull out that just "sending ships", you have to take out the supplies, vehicles, weapons, destroy intel, decide what you are leaving with the locals etc etc this is not as easy as packing your shit in a Uhaul and moving to a new apartment son.

And you obviously don't get the point. That is a military operation and its details on what to do in what order has nothing to do with the policies, which is our main subject here. You say pull out, if you have an operational army they will pull out. It works like that and as easy as it sounds for a non military like Obama cause he does not plan how to pull out, his job is to think and plan on the outcome of the pull out. And I don't see anything planned there.

If the current situation was the plan, than it is worse than what I thought.

 

[Saigon]

So when you say "new moderate regimes" I highly doubt it, unless you have any facts behind this comment. I don't see any of those regimes being any moderate, unless there is a secular constitution in place, which egytptian muslim brotherhood already told they would not agree with one.

Cause islam is a religion that comes as a whole package. It has its own constitution in it which you can not contradict with.

No, not at all! Not by a million miles, my friend!

Each Islamic regime is unique, each very different from those around it. Though the Middle East may be portrayed on your TV as a single amorphous mass, in reality Islamic countries are as different as the US and El Salvador, or Germany and Bosnia.

The three regimes mentioned are currently moderate, and are clearly pursuing moderate poliicies. That may change, but lets deal here with the here-and-now.

We can see the moderate policies in Egypt shown by, for instance: Mursi scalding Syria over oppressive policies, Mursi firing 70 old-school Egyptian army generals, Mursi using the army to round up extremists...this is all good news.

 

[High_Gravity]

1. What is tough pulling out of iraq or afghanistan? It is easy, you just send your ships and take all your guys abroad and ship ahoy...
.

You obviously have zero Military experience, there is alot more to a complete pull out that just "sending ships", you have to take out the supplies, vehicles, weapons, destroy intel, decide what you are leaving with the locals etc etc this is not as easy as packing your shit in a Uhaul and moving to a new apartment son.

And you obviously don't get the point. That is a military operation and its details on what to do in what order has nothing to do with the policies, which is our main subject here. You say pull out, if you have an operational army they will pull out. It works like that and as easy as it sounds for a non military like Obama cause he does not plan how to pull out, his job is to think and plan on the outcome of the pull out. And I don't see anything planned there.

If the current situation was the plan, than it is worse than what I thought.

Thats not the way it works, pulling all your forces out of a country takes time, especially if you have been there for years like we have been in Afghanistan. Look at Iraq for instance, pulling everything out of there took about a year, we ended up leaving alot of things behind.

 

[Saigon]

Thats not the way it works, pulling all your forces out of a country takes time, especially if you have been there for years like we have been in Afghanistan. Look at Iraq for instance, pulling everything out of there took about a year, we ended up leaving alot of things behind.

I feel the same way.

Given the US is in, it makes sense to do everything possible to leave the country stable and functional. Any exit strategy will take time.

 

[alpine]

So when you say "new moderate regimes" I highly doubt it, unless you have any facts behind this comment. I don't see any of those regimes being any moderate, unless there is a secular constitution in place, which egytptian muslim brotherhood already told they would not agree with one.

Cause islam is a religion that comes as a whole package. It has its own constitution in it which you can not contradict with.

No, not at all! not by a million miles, my friend!

Each Islamic regime is unique, each very different from those around it.

Though the Middle East may be portrayed on your TV as a single amorphous mass, in reality Islamic countries are as different as the US and El Salvador, or Germany and Bosnia.

The three regimes mentioned are currently moderate, and are clearly pursuing moderate poliicies. That may change, but lets deal here with the here-and-now.

My friend, I wish I could agree with you but as an ex-muslim born and raised in the middle east, I have to disagree with you.

So yes, tv screens are not the place to pursue the truth about the region, nor some touristic trips. You have to live in it. I have seen countries almost as modern as europe in 1970s, fallen victim to the policies of the west and now they are far away from what you call "moderate".

I think you have seen middle east in just one particular time in the history. That's why you can not see the decline those countries are in. Look at it in a broader perspective. You have to look at what they have been and what they are now. This will give you a better understanding where they will end up I think.

My 5 cents...

 

[Wookietim]

So when you say "new moderate regimes" I highly doubt it, unless you have any facts behind this comment. I don't see any of those regimes being any moderate, unless there is a secular constitution in place, which egytptian muslim brotherhood already told they would not agree with one.

Cause islam is a religion that comes as a whole package. It has its own constitution in it which you can not contradict with.

No, not at all! Not by a million miles, my friend!

Each Islamic regime is unique, each very different from those around it. Though the Middle East may be portrayed on your TV as a single amorphous mass, in reality Islamic countries are as different as the US and El Salvador, or Germany and Bosnia.

The three regimes mentioned are currently moderate, and are clearly pursuing moderate poliicies. That may change, but lets deal here with the here-and-now.

We can see the moderate policies in Egypt shown by, for instance: Mursi scalding Syria over oppressive policies, Mursi firing 70 old-school Egyptian army generals, Mursi using the army to round up extremists...this is all good news.

I would point out that there are Islamic democracies, Islamic theocracies, Islamic republics and any combination of them. Islam does not have it's own constitution any more than Christianity has it's own constitution.

 

[alpine]

So when you say "new moderate regimes" I highly doubt it, unless you have any facts behind this comment. I don't see any of those regimes being any moderate, unless there is a secular constitution in place, which egytptian muslim brotherhood already told they would not agree with one.

Cause islam is a religion that comes as a whole package. It has its own constitution in it which you can not contradict with.

No, not at all! Not by a million miles, my friend!

Each Islamic regime is unique, each very different from those around it. Though the Middle East may be portrayed on your TV as a single amorphous mass, in reality Islamic countries are as different as the US and El Salvador, or Germany and Bosnia.

The three regimes mentioned are currently moderate, and are clearly pursuing moderate poliicies. That may change, but lets deal here with the here-and-now.

We can see the moderate policies in Egypt shown by, for instance: Mursi scalding Syria over oppressive policies, Mursi firing 70 old-school Egyptian army generals, Mursi using the army to round up extremists...this is all good news.

I would point out that there are Islamic democracies, Islamic theocracies, Islamic republics and any combination of them. Islam does not have it's own constitution any more than Christianity has it's own constitution.

Can you give me an example to an islamic democracy?

 

[Saigon]

I have seen countries almost as modern as europe in 1970s, fallen victim to the policies of the west and now they are far away from what you call "moderate".

I think you have seen middle east in just one particular time in the history. That's why you can not see the decline those countries are in. .

Have you been to Malaysia recently?

Turkey is doing quite well, also Jordan and Indonesia.

Some Islamic societies are in a state of decline (most obviously Syria, but if we go back into history then also Iran and Iraq fit the bill) but some are doing rather well.

The same can be said of any continent. Countries rise and fall - dependent often on their taste for war and corruption.

Some Islamic societies are democracies, some dynasties, some kingdoms.

 

[Saigon]

Can you give me an example to an islamic democracy?

Bangladesh
Malaysia
Indonesia
Turkey
Tunisia
Egypt

How many did you want?

 

[alpine]

I have seen countries almost as modern as europe in 1970s, fallen victim to the policies of the west and now they are far away from what you call "moderate".

I think you have seen middle east in just one particular time in the history. That's why you can not see the decline those countries are in. .

Have you been to Malaysia recently?

Turkey is doing quite well, also Jordan and Indonesia.

Some Islamic societies are in a state of decline (most obviously Syria, but if we go back into history then also Iran and Iraq fit the bill) but some are doing rather well.

The same can be said of any continent. Countries rise and fall - dependent often on their taste for war and corruption.

Some Islamic societies are democracies, some dynasties, some kingdoms.

Decline in what sense? Iran is in the bottom of decline.

I don't have knowledge about east asian muslim countries. Middle east I know. And all the countries you have listed are in decline.

The best of all, turkey. Constitutional and secular democracy. One of a kind in the whole muslim world. Their founding father did got it right about the religion. He set the rules straight from beginning, no religion in the state, whatsoever.

Do you know what it is like in turkey right now? People get sentenced to jail for tweeting poems from 18th century, having some little things that might be seen as an insult to religion. The whole constitution has been torn apart. The islamic government controls all 3 of the democratic powers that should be separated.

So for you, when you go for a visit in summer to the aegean sea border, turkey may seem like a great modern state. But for its people, it is an islamic state that you can get jailed for speaking of your mind.

That's the decline. There is no freedom in the middle east. There was in the past, not any more. No democracy, no republic... these are all tags on some of the countries. And the reason for it is, islam.

Islam is like a fig tree. If you plant it next to your house, it will ruin its base when it grows.

 

[Wookietim]

Can you give me an example to an islamic democracy?

Others have already listed multiple countries that fit that question.

But I simply want to reiterate that only in the theocracies where the koran is considered law does islam control govt. Just being muslim does not mean, however, that the koran is the law. Just as being a American does not mean that the Catholic version of the bible is the law.

 

[Saigon]

Do you know what it is like in turkey right now? People get sentenced to jail for tweeting poems from 18th century, having some little things that might be seen as an insult to religion. The whole constitution has been torn apart. The islamic government controls all 3 of the democratic powers that should be separated.

Yes, I go to Turkey at least once a year for work. (I'm a journalist)

I agree that Turkey is more religious less secular than it was 20 years ago - but it is not in decline by any means.

Istanbul is booming and vibrant and still a place where you can sit in the street and drink beer and talk to women who do not wear a veil. I hope it stays that way.

In my experience smaller towns can be very conservative, especially in the far east, and a Turkish female friend of mine was once spat at for wearing a short skirt in Nemrut, but even so....it's hardly Iran.

Of all the towns in Turkey, only Diyabakir strikes me being in decline - and that is because of the Kurdish isues.