My thoughts on the Islamic world.

[alpine]

Others have already listed multiple countries that fit that question.

But I simply want to reiterate that only in the theocracies where the koran is considered law does islam control govt. Just being muslim does not mean, however, that the koran is the law. Just as being a American does not mean that the Catholic version of the bible is the law.

As I said, for those countries you listed, democracy is a name tag they call themselves. The finest of all, long time democracy with secularism is turkey. Check out how many journalists are in jail. Check out what they do to people that have anything to say about religion.

Believe me guys. I manage a political website. I have people from all muslim countries coming into this website. They are all scared of their government, so called democratic government. They are even scared to death of the people living in those countries.

This is a scene from 1993. One of the countries you listed as democratic. There are thousands of people in front of a building that has been set to fire by islamists. Inside, alevis (kinda like protestants of islam) and non-believers. Thousand of people shotung the same thing, Allahu Akbar. They are burning their neighbours alive. You can not explain this as "terrorism" or "a group of extremists". Thats the whole town getting together and burning their nighbours. Thats madness, insanity. And this is the potential a "democratic" country has.

They are all islamic countries run by islamists. I don't care if wiki says they are "democratic". I have been there and I have seen the so called "democracy" those countries have. It is like day and night comparing to what americans call democracy.

 

[alpine]

Do you know what it is like in turkey right now? People get sentenced to jail for tweeting poems from 18th century, having some little things that might be seen as an insult to religion. The whole constitution has been torn apart. The islamic government controls all 3 of the democratic powers that should be separated.

Yes, I go to Turkey at least once a year for work. (I'm a journalist)

I agree that Turkey is more religious less secular than it was 20 years ago - but it is not in decline by any means.

Istanbul is booming and vibrant and still a place where you can sit in the street and drink beer and talk to women who do not wear a veil. I hope it stays that way.

In my experience smaller towns can be very conservative, especially in the far east, and a Turkish female friend of mine was once spat at for wearing a short skirt in Nemrut, but even so....it's hardly Iran.

Of all the towns in Turkey, only Diyabakir strikes me being in decline - and that is because of the Kurdish isues.

That's great. I like you more now since you are a journalist. I think you guys are the only hope that's left for those countries.

Did you know all the government schools are being transformed into "imam hatip" (religious schools) in turkey? If you don't want to send your kid to those schools, well too bad, cause you have to. This is just the beginning. The PM of turkey, clearly stated that non-believers are drug addicts and not trustworthy, he stated they are planning for a religious islamic youth. Watch turkey swinging to the extremist side day by day.

Did you know the Fethulah Gulen and his cemaat (religious group) taking over the government by all means including illegal activity like black mailing and cheating in government exams? And that Fethullah Gulen himself has said: "Democracy is a tool for us"

And PM of turkey said: "You can not be secular and a muslim at the same time"

I would really like to discuss this subject more in depth with you. I have many more on this particular subject. Turkey is a really good example I think because it was so close to being a country with western values but in a great decline now. You can see how countries fall victim to religion in a very great detail. It is happening right in front of our eyes I think.

 

[Unkotare]

What has Obama done very well?

1) Got the US out (or on the way out of) Iraq and Afghanistan.

2) Forged good relationships with the newer and more moderate regimes in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya without the loss of a single US life.

3) Established that the US is not a rampaging extremist state - which some Islamic media like to pretend it is.

That was just spin on areas where he has failed completely. Maybe you should tell us about your own country for a while.

 

[Unkotare]

I like you more now since you are a journalist. .

That's something you don't hear said very often.

 

[Unkotare]

Turkey is a really good example I think because it was so close to being a country with western values but in a great decline now.

So, you don't think the changes they have made as part of the process of trying to be accepted into the EU have been positive?

 

[Unkotare]

1. What is tough pulling out of iraq or afghanistan? It is easy, you just send your ships and take all your guys abroad and ship ahoy....

You need to ask some of the guys with military experience how "easy" it is.

 

[alpine]

Turkey is a really good example I think because it was so close to being a country with western values but in a great decline now.

So, you don't think the changes they have made as part of the process of trying to be accepted into the EU have been positive?

I think those could be really beneficial, if it was a democratic system running the country. We are talking about a country that has no separation of powers. This is how the problem starts. If you look at other islamic countries, throughout the history, as soon as you loose this ability, you are a victim. I think turkey has compromised on that and now paying the price.

 

[Unkotare]

Never had that, but I do like Korean food especially Kim Chi and Bulgogi.

Yukejang is the best.

Never had that, I will have to try it.

I'm sure you will love it.

 

[alpine]

I like you more now since you are a journalist. .

That's something you don't hear said very often.

Well, as an ordinary person from one of those countries listed as "democratic", that's the only safe harbor I can rely on. Actually I should say, safest among all. I can not trust the courts, I can not trust the parliament, and obviously I can not trust the government. The PM of turkey recently stated: "Keep your journalists on leash" to the media bosses. They immediately fired some of the opposing columnists and journalists. So they must have been doing something right I guess

 

[alpine]

1. What is tough pulling out of iraq or afghanistan? It is easy, you just send your ships and take all your guys abroad and ship ahoy....

You need to ask some of the guys with military experience how "easy" it is.

Might be tough for military personal. But easy for Obama. And that's the whole point to it.

 

[Unkotare]

I like you more now since you are a journalist. .

That's something you don't hear said very often.

Well, as an ordinary person from one of those countries listed as "democratic", that's the only safe harbor I can rely on. Actually I should say, safest among all. I can not trust the courts, I can not trust the parliament, and obviously I can not trust the government. The PM of turkey recently stated: "Keep your journalists on leash" to the media bosses. They immediately fired some of the opposing columnists and journalists. So they must have been doing something right I guess

You really think you can trust journalists? Really?

 

[Unkotare]

1. What is tough pulling out of iraq or afghanistan? It is easy, you just send your ships and take all your guys abroad and ship ahoy....

You need to ask some of the guys with military experience how "easy" it is.

Might be tough for military personal. But easy for Obama. And that's the whole point to it.

If it's so easy, why has he been f-ing it up so badly?

 

[alpine]

That's something you don't hear said very often.

Well, as an ordinary person from one of those countries listed as "democratic", that's the only safe harbor I can rely on. Actually I should say, safest among all. I can not trust the courts, I can not trust the parliament, and obviously I can not trust the government. The PM of turkey recently stated: "Keep your journalists on leash" to the media bosses. They immediately fired some of the opposing columnists and journalists. So they must have been doing something right I guess

You really think you can trust journalists? Really?

If someone gets jailed for whatever they have to say, and they still keep saying the same thing regardless, that proves that person is sincere. And yes I will trust on sincerity in darkness, cause there is nowhere else to turn to.

 

[Katzndogz]

No, not at all! Not by a million miles, my friend!

Each Islamic regime is unique, each very different from those around it. Though the Middle East may be portrayed on your TV as a single amorphous mass, in reality Islamic countries are as different as the US and El Salvador, or Germany and Bosnia.

The three regimes mentioned are currently moderate, and are clearly pursuing moderate poliicies. That may change, but lets deal here with the here-and-now.

We can see the moderate policies in Egypt shown by, for instance: Mursi scalding Syria over oppressive policies, Mursi firing 70 old-school Egyptian army generals, Mursi using the army to round up extremists...this is all good news.

I would point out that there are Islamic democracies, Islamic theocracies, Islamic republics and any combination of them. Islam does not have it's own constitution any more than Christianity has it's own constitution.

Can you give me an example to an islamic democracy?

Most of them! Even those countries that are monarchies have an elected prime minister. Democracy doesn't mean that the country will be peaceful and prosperous. It is entirely possible to have a democracy composed entirely of cannibals and victims.

 

[alpine]

I would point out that there are Islamic democracies, Islamic theocracies, Islamic republics and any combination of them. Islam does not have it's own constitution any more than Christianity has it's own constitution.

Can you give me an example to an islamic democracy?

Most of them! Even those countries that are monarchies have an elected prime minister. Democracy doesn't mean that the country will be peaceful and prosperous. It is entirely possible to have a democracy composed entirely of cannibals and victims.

Then lets have facts right. I can accept those countries are democratic, if you are willing to accept that it is a form of democracy excluding the freedom of speech. If you agree, then we can use this oxymoron definition for those countries: "Speechless Democracy"

How bout that?

 

[Unkotare]

Well, as an ordinary person from one of those countries listed as "democratic", that's the only safe harbor I can rely on. Actually I should say, safest among all. I can not trust the courts, I can not trust the parliament, and obviously I can not trust the government. The PM of turkey recently stated: "Keep your journalists on leash" to the media bosses. They immediately fired some of the opposing columnists and journalists. So they must have been doing something right I guess

You really think you can trust journalists? Really?

If someone gets jailed for whatever they have to say, and they still keep saying the same thing regardless, that proves that person is sincere.

Not necessarily. You can't trust journalists any more than you can trust politicians (or anyone else for that matter).

 

[Sunni Man]

Turkey is a really good example I think because it was so close to being a country with western values but in a great decline now. You can see how countries fall victim to religion in a very great detail. It is happening right in front of our eyes I think.

Typical western colonial mindset.

Western values = superior culture.

 

[alpine]

Turkey is a really good example I think because it was so close to being a country with western values but in a great decline now. You can see how countries fall victim to religion in a very great detail. It is happening right in front of our eyes I think.

Typical western colonial mindset.

Western values = superior culture.

Yes, freedom of speech is superior to.... no freedom of speech

I can list bunch if you like. Usually it is superior to have something good, than not to have it, you know. Simple logic.

 

[Sunni Man]

Turkey is a really good example I think because it was so close to being a country with western values but in a great decline now. You can see how countries fall victim to religion in a very great detail. It is happening right in front of our eyes I think.

Typical western colonial mindset.

Western values = superior culture.

Yes, freedom of speech is superior to.... no freedom of speech

I can list bunch if you like. Usually it is superior to have something good, than not to have it, you know. Simple logic.

Secular freedom of speech as practiced in the west is immoral and far from being superior to anything of substance.

 

[ekrem]

Compulsory education was raised from 8 to 12 years in Turkey this year.
It applies since 2012-13 school year.
School-entrance age now is the 66th month after birth (5.5 years).
Below University level the whole education-system is being reformed from the ground-up as Turkey doesn't perform well in PISA and is in the beginning of Bologna process.

Education budget was raised 14,8 % this year.
Since 2002 education budget has more than quadroupled.
GENERAL DIRECTORATE OF BUDGET AND FISCAL CONTROL