Minimum Wage Increase: They Never Talks About the SALES

[Care4all]

When was the last time you heard Obama or any of these $15 an hour minimum wage frauds calling out state governments in liberal states for not paying their workers $15 an hour?

FYI-
President Obama is wanting the minimum wage to go to $10.10 NOT $15.

Of course. The corporatists are evil, but they're not idiots. They're never going to raise the minimum wage to the level that it will damage economic output.

You are right, they won't raise it enough to damage the economic output.

Wise observation. I've never observed a single business go under due to the Minimum Wage. It just doesn't happen. I've asked several times for someone to show us all the examples of businesses going under because of it. So far, no one's provided even one. The fact is, if you're struggling to pay Minimum Wage, your business is doomed. You might as well close up shop.

That's because you are an uneducated simpleton, when the bottom wage is forced up to $15 an hour what happens to the rest of the wage scales, yes everyone wants a raise.

think about this....the middle class has lost ground, 5% less in wages with the cost of living calculated in to it, over the last 8 years.... PART of this is due to keeping the minimum wage so low...because as you said, raising the minimum wage will make all those higher than minimum wage feel they deserve more money, based on what the minimum wage earners are making.... we in the middle class are are biting off our nose to spite our face if we fight to keep the minimum wage as low as possible, or where it is.... this only makes the gap between the richest and the poorest and those in between even GREATER.

 

[BluesLegend]

FYI-
President Obama is wanting the minimum wage to go to $10.10 NOT $15.

Of course. The corporatists are evil, but they're not idiots. They're never going to raise the minimum wage to the level that it will damage economic output.

You are right, they won't raise it enough to damage the economic output.

Wise observation. I've never observed a single business go under due to the Minimum Wage. It just doesn't happen. I've asked several times for someone to show us all the examples of businesses going under because of it. So far, no one's provided even one. The fact is, if you're struggling to pay Minimum Wage, your business is doomed. You might as well close up shop.

That's because you are an uneducated simpleton, when the bottom wage is forced up to $15 an hour what happens to the rest of the wage scales, yes everyone wants a raise.

think about this....the middle class has lost ground, 5% less in wages with the cost of living calculated in to it, over the last 8 years.... PART of this is due to keeping the minimum wage so low...because as you said, raising the minimum wage will make all those higher than minimum wage feel they deserve more money, based on what the minimum wage earners are making.... we in the middle class are are biting off our nose to spite our face if we fight to keep the minimum wage as low as possible, or where it is.... this only makes the gap between the richest and the poorest and those in between even GREATER.

You have been fooled by the left's division and class envy propaganda. Wages at all levels are market driven, period. When the economy is booming, unemployment is low, and its hard to find people to fill jobs wages rise AND those with less education and experience are granted opportunities they would not otherwise be offered due to shortages in available candidates. Efforts to artificially miracle wage increases with some damn government mandate will fail.

Jobs jobs jobs for Christ sake people get it together. Government is out of control with its taxes, spending, and regulations, this is destroying jobs for the poor and middle class. Let alone allowing millions of illegals to work here. They studied the illegal amnesty Reagan signed and guess what, it depressed wages for our poor and middle class for years. These politicians have you focused on the minimum wage to deflect from the real problems they are responsible for.

 

[Care4all]

Of course. The corporatists are evil, but they're not idiots. They're never going to raise the minimum wage to the level that it will damage economic output.

You are right, they won't raise it enough to damage the economic output.

Wise observation. I've never observed a single business go under due to the Minimum Wage. It just doesn't happen. I've asked several times for someone to show us all the examples of businesses going under because of it. So far, no one's provided even one. The fact is, if you're struggling to pay Minimum Wage, your business is doomed. You might as well close up shop.

That's because you are an uneducated simpleton, when the bottom wage is forced up to $15 an hour what happens to the rest of the wage scales, yes everyone wants a raise.

think about this....the middle class has lost ground, 5% less in wages with the cost of living calculated in to it, over the last 8 years.... PART of this is due to keeping the minimum wage so low...because as you said, raising the minimum wage will make all those higher than minimum wage feel they deserve more money, based on what the minimum wage earners are making.... we in the middle class are are biting off our nose to spite our face if we fight to keep the minimum wage as low as possible, or where it is.... this only makes the gap between the richest and the poorest and those in between even GREATER.

You have been fooled by the left's division and class envy propaganda. Wages at all levels are market driven, period. When the economy is booming, unemployment is low, and its hard to find people to fill jobs wages rise AND those with less education and experience are granted opportunities they would not otherwise be offered due to shortages in available candidates. Efforts to artificially miracle wage increases with some damn government mandate will fail.

Jobs jobs jobs for Christ sake people get it together. Government is out of control with its taxes, spending, and regulations, this is destroying jobs for the poor and middle class. Let alone allowing millions of illegals to work here. They studied the illegal amnesty Reagan signed and guess what, it depressed wages for our poor and middle class for years. These politicians have you focused on the minimum wage to deflect from the real problems they are responsible for.

I don't disagree at all with what you have said about unemployment rate being high the last 8 years, and this keeps wages on the working class down...due to supply and demand of workers (yet high unemployment hasn't affected the upper class and their wages) and I have no envy of the wealthy, because I am wealthy enough that I no longer have to work for a living and compete in this distressed employment market.

I don't disagree with you that Illegal immigrants have hurt the poorest in this nation, again, supply and demand for lower wage jobs, though I have NOT seen any official numbers showing such after Reagan's and Bush 1's amnesties.

But I do disagree with you completely, on not raising the minimum wage with inflation.....

And I also disagree that it was the middle class's fault that unemployment went through the roof, thus their salaries went flat, while inflation went up, after the Wall street Market Crash and the housing Boom bust in 2007-2008....

you will NEVER EVER have the gvt not involved in any of this....it is, what it is.... just look at TARP....

 

[LOki]

FYI-
President Obama is wanting the minimum wage to go to $10.10 NOT $15.

Of course. The corporatists are evil, but they're not idiots. They're never going to raise the minimum wage to the level that it will damage economic output.

You are right, they won't raise it enough to damage the economic output.

Wise observation. I've never observed a single business go under due to the Minimum Wage. It just doesn't happen. I've asked several times for someone to show us all the examples of businesses going under because of it. So far, no one's provided even one. The fact is, if you're struggling to pay Minimum Wage, your business is doomed. You might as well close up shop.

I have offered you examples. You just refuse to acknowledge they exist.

On the other hand, you have not yet explained your objection to basing a worker's wage solely upon what the worker's work is worth.

Why is that?

I guess I do not understand your point or you do not understand the business term "productivity"?

I know what the business term "productivity" means. What you "produce" may or may not be worth something. "Productivity" is not a synonym for "worth." Not even in business terms. Not the same thing. Not.

So, the question that the minimum wage proponents around here have been avoiding still stands unanswered: Do you object to to basing a worker's wage solely upon what the worker's work is worth? If so, please explain to me why.

Thank you.

 

[LOki]

FYI-
President Obama is wanting the minimum wage to go to $10.10 NOT $15.

Of course. The corporatists are evil, but they're not idiots. They're never going to raise the minimum wage to the level that it will damage economic output.

You are right, they won't raise it enough to damage the economic output.

Wise observation. I've never observed a single business go under due to the Minimum Wage. It just doesn't happen. I've asked several times for someone to show us all the examples of businesses going under because of it. So far, no one's provided even one. The fact is, if you're struggling to pay Minimum Wage, your business is doomed. You might as well close up shop.

I have offered you examples. You just refuse to acknowledge they exist.

On the other hand, you have not yet explained your objection to basing a worker's wage solely upon what the worker's work is worth.

Why is that?

Which businesses have gone under due to the Minimum Wage?

Look into the boarded up businesses in Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, etc...

There you will find businesses that minimum wage laws put under.

I haven't observed a single one.

You refuse to look.

But set that aside for the moment and answer me this:

What is your objection to basing a worker's wage solely upon what the worker's work is worth?

 

[LOki]

Minimum wage laws demand that workers willing to accept wages less than the minimum wage are barred from such contracts. Minimum wage laws cannot create jobs, they can ONLY outlaw them. Statutory minimum wage is compulsory unemployment.

You simply cannot avoid devaluing wages when you make $1/hr work cost the same as $15/hr work. There is no escape from the objective fact of economic reality that minimum wage laws devalue wages.

Adding new dollars to the economy by increasing the minimum wage beyond what the work is worth is not the same thing as creating new wealth. Minimum wage laws necessarily result in inflation.

I find it instructive that not one minimum wage proponent on this board is willing to discuss the reasons they object to basing a workers wages solely upon what that worker's work is worth.

It is set at their worth, let's say payroll is set at 30 percent of sales....when the business sales go up, so should payroll, year after year.....still 30 percent of sales.....

Are you saying when it was set at 30 percent of sales 10 years ago that it should stay at that flat amount and not go up even though over the 10 years the business is now doing 50 percent more in sales than it did?

Yes. I understand you might wish to base wages upon what a worker is worth... or what they want... or what they "need"... or what their bosses make... or "percent of sales"... etc.

I'm asking you why do you object to basing a workers wages solely upon what that worker's work is worth.

I am basing it on the employee's work, and it's called "productivity", and it is BASED on Sales generated per employee for the hours they work.

Fine.

I'm asking you: Do you object to basing a workers wages solely upon what that worker's work is worth?

If so, please explain why you object to basing a workers wages solely upon what that worker's work is worth.

There are a couple of factors in how one decides to pay their employees...

What they are WORTH is absolutely the main factor, I will go in to the other after I address their worth.

What they are "worth" is how much can they produce (sell) an hour....it's not an arbitrary number that is pulled out of my head or the sky...and once I have decided that X amount in sales produced an hour by my minimum wage employees, (and an X amount in sales produced for my higher level employees as well) is profitable for me, compared with what my employees cost me to pay them...I can then come up with a budget on what payroll will cost me on a yearly basis, and this is what the 30% of sales is, which I mentioned earlier in my example.... (note, it could be 20% of my sales that is my budget for payroll, or it could be 40% of my sales for payroll and I could still be profitable, this will vary by business and their other business expenses)

So, let's say I was satisfied with my projected profits when payroll for my employees came to 30% of my planned sales...some being paid more than minimum (because they produced more/thus worth more) and some being paid minimum, but together with the other payroll taxes and benefits I have to pay per employee it comes to 30% of my sales of my total payroll.....

As my sales increase for the business, which means my employees are producing more in sales per hour for me, I can give them raises and still be profitable.

As an example:

If 10 years ago, my business did $10,000,000 in gross sales, and spending 30% of my gross sales on payroll was profitable for me, which is a $300,000 a year budget for payroll....

and in the present day my business 10 years later is doing $15,000,000 in sales, my 30% budget for payroll would now be $450,000.... my employee's pay would go up from 10 years ago tremendously, since they are producing 50% more per hour than they did previously....

However, I could find that my 10 employees can not produce 50% MORE per hour than they did 10 years ago....they are too busy and end up walking customers because there is not enough help on the sales floor to give good customer service....and their productivity could only increase by 30% over that period.....then I would need to HIRE another employee or two, to pick up the slack, then I could only give 30% in raises for my employees over the 10 year period, because the remaining money from my payroll budget, would be needed to pay, my new hires.

Fine.

I'm still asking you: Do you object to basing a workers wages solely upon what that worker's work is worth? YES or NO.

If so, please explain why you object to basing a workers wages solely upon what that worker's work is worth.

 

[Care4all]

Of course. The corporatists are evil, but they're not idiots. They're never going to raise the minimum wage to the level that it will damage economic output.

You are right, they won't raise it enough to damage the economic output.

Wise observation. I've never observed a single business go under due to the Minimum Wage. It just doesn't happen. I've asked several times for someone to show us all the examples of businesses going under because of it. So far, no one's provided even one. The fact is, if you're struggling to pay Minimum Wage, your business is doomed. You might as well close up shop.

I have offered you examples. You just refuse to acknowledge they exist.

On the other hand, you have not yet explained your objection to basing a worker's wage solely upon what the worker's work is worth.

Why is that?

I guess I do not understand your point or you do not understand the business term "productivity"?

I know what the business term "productivity" means. What you "produce" may or may not be worth something. "Productivity" is not a synonym for "worth." Not even in business terms. Not the same thing. Not.

So, the question that the minimum wage proponents around here have been avoiding still stands unanswered: Do you object to to basing a worker's wage solely upon what the worker's work is worth? If so, please explain to me why.

Thank you.

How do YOU determine ''worth'', before I answer you?

 

[Care4all]

Some actual victims of the 15 dollar minimum wage.....

SeaTac workers not happy with 15 min. wage

A writer for NW Asian Weekly recently blogged about her experience attending an event at a SeaTac hotel. She asked employees if they were “happy with the $15 wage.” The ensuing conversations,


“It sounds good, but it’s not good,” the woman said.


“Why?” I asked.


“I lost my 401k, health insurance, paid holiday, and vacation,” she responded. “No more free food,” she added.


“The hotel used to feed her. Now, she has to bring her own food. Also, no overtime, she said. She used to work extra hours and received overtime pay.


“What else? I asked.

WHAT a difference between this blogger that you posted, verses the NEWS on the topic....wonder who is right?

$15 wage floor slowly takes hold in SeaTac

Originally published February 13, 2014 at 9:26 pm Updated June 3, 2014 at 2:39 pm





By Amy Martinez

For all the political uproar it caused, SeaTac’s closely watched experiment with a $15 minimum wage has not created a large chain reaction of lost jobs and higher prices, nor has it led to an embrace of union membership.


Six weeks after the new hourly minimum standard took effect at some hotels and parking lots in SeaTac, proponents and opponents alike say any evidence to gauge its impact is still anecdotal.


At the Clarion Hotel off International Boulevard, a sit-down restaurant has been shuttered, though it might soon be replaced by a less-labor-intensive cafe. The nearby Cedarbrook Lodge, by contrast, is undergoing a $16 million expansion.


Other businesses have adjusted in ways that run the gamut from putting more work in the hands of managers, to instituting a small “living-wage surcharge” for a daily parking space near the airport.


Meanwhile, workers are flocking to SeaTac to apply for minimum-wage jobs, and recipients of the mandatory pay raise say they’re enjoying the freedom of having extra money to spend or save.


The new surcharge of 50 cents a day at MasterPark in SeaTac is an attempt to recoup some costs of the $15 minimum wage, said managing partner Roger McCracken.


He said he also is considering cuts to MasterPark’s advertising budget, but he called layoffs “foolish” and rejected the notion that cashiers soon would be replaced by automation.


“Whatever we do, service is key,” he said. “We want an employee answering our phones, and anytime someone pulls into one of our lots, they’re greeted by a human being.


“That’s great news for our employees,” he added. “They’re pretty happy campers right now.”

15 wage floor slowly takes hold in SeaTac The Seattle Times

 

[LOki]

You are right, they won't raise it enough to damage the economic output.

Wise observation. I've never observed a single business go under due to the Minimum Wage. It just doesn't happen. I've asked several times for someone to show us all the examples of businesses going under because of it. So far, no one's provided even one. The fact is, if you're struggling to pay Minimum Wage, your business is doomed. You might as well close up shop.

I have offered you examples. You just refuse to acknowledge they exist.

On the other hand, you have not yet explained your objection to basing a worker's wage solely upon what the worker's work is worth.

Why is that?

I guess I do not understand your point or you do not understand the business term "productivity"?

I know what the business term "productivity" means. What you "produce" may or may not be worth something. "Productivity" is not a synonym for "worth." Not even in business terms. Not the same thing. Not.

So, the question that the minimum wage proponents around here have been avoiding still stands unanswered: Do you object to to basing a worker's wage solely upon what the worker's work is worth? If so, please explain to me why.

Thank you.

How do YOU determine ''worth'', before I answer you?

I'm not about to determine for YOU or anyone else what's worth what, or how you and whoever you contract with determines that worth. None of my business.

The question is simple: Do you object to to basing a worker's wage solely upon what the worker's work is worth? YES or NO.

If not, please explain to me why.

Thank you.

 

[BluesLegend]

You are right, they won't raise it enough to damage the economic output.

Wise observation. I've never observed a single business go under due to the Minimum Wage. It just doesn't happen. I've asked several times for someone to show us all the examples of businesses going under because of it. So far, no one's provided even one. The fact is, if you're struggling to pay Minimum Wage, your business is doomed. You might as well close up shop.

That's because you are an uneducated simpleton, when the bottom wage is forced up to $15 an hour what happens to the rest of the wage scales, yes everyone wants a raise.

think about this....the middle class has lost ground, 5% less in wages with the cost of living calculated in to it, over the last 8 years.... PART of this is due to keeping the minimum wage so low...because as you said, raising the minimum wage will make all those higher than minimum wage feel they deserve more money, based on what the minimum wage earners are making.... we in the middle class are are biting off our nose to spite our face if we fight to keep the minimum wage as low as possible, or where it is.... this only makes the gap between the richest and the poorest and those in between even GREATER.

You have been fooled by the left's division and class envy propaganda. Wages at all levels are market driven, period. When the economy is booming, unemployment is low, and its hard to find people to fill jobs wages rise AND those with less education and experience are granted opportunities they would not otherwise be offered due to shortages in available candidates. Efforts to artificially miracle wage increases with some damn government mandate will fail.

Jobs jobs jobs for Christ sake people get it together. Government is out of control with its taxes, spending, and regulations, this is destroying jobs for the poor and middle class. Let alone allowing millions of illegals to work here. They studied the illegal amnesty Reagan signed and guess what, it depressed wages for our poor and middle class for years. These politicians have you focused on the minimum wage to deflect from the real problems they are responsible for.

I don't disagree at all with what you have said about unemployment rate being high the last 8 years, and this keeps wages on the working class down...due to supply and demand of workers (yet high unemployment hasn't affected the upper class and their wages) and I have no envy of the wealthy, because I am wealthy enough that I no longer have to work for a living and compete in this distressed employment market.

I don't disagree with you that Illegal immigrants have hurt the poorest in this nation, again, supply and demand for lower wage jobs, though I have NOT seen any official numbers showing such after Reagan's and Bush 1's amnesties.

But I do disagree with you completely, on not raising the minimum wage with inflation.....

And I also disagree that it was the middle class's fault that unemployment went through the roof, thus their salaries went flat, while inflation went up, after the Wall street Market Crash and the housing Boom bust in 2007-2008....

you will NEVER EVER have the gvt not involved in any of this....it is, what it is.... just look at TARP....

The housing crash, lets not treat people like children who didn't know any better okay. They new better and chose to participate in that fiasco. They chose to abandon common sense and embrace greed and fiscal insanity. Sucks to be them, maybe they learned their lesson I don't know. I'm not absolving government, lenders, or Wall Street who were cheering this on but the people are also responsible.

Look this minimum wage issue is a political joke, in back rooms politicians are laughing at how easily the people are duped by their fanning the flames over the minimum wage. There are really important things we need to be doing to address poor and middle class jobs and wages. They will require tough decisions that many politicians are not willing to make. So they placate the people by faking concern over the minimum wage, like raising it will accomplish anything. I'm telling you the poor will go on being poor and the middle class will continue to slide backwards towards the poor, that's what will happen.

 

[hadit]

They will deal with it, by reducing hours, laying off workers and raising prices. You simply can't raise a company's operating cost by a significant amount and have no impact whatsoever. If you could, why not just raise the MW to $100/hr and be done with poverty altogether? Obviously, you can't.

Ha, they do that anyway. So don't worry about the whiny hype. They'll be angry about it for a short time, and then they'll shut up and move on. The sky won't be falling. Bet on that.

And teenagers will find it just a bit harder to get that first job, and unemployment among the young will increase just a bit more, but we don't care about that, because we feel good about ourselves. And again, why not just raise it to $100/hr?

All that's gonna happen regardless of paying workers better. We've got Millions & Millions of Illegals invading. Good-paying jobs are gonna become harder & harder to find. And once this current President's disastrous trade deal is passed, American Workers will struggle even more.

And btw, your beloved Republicans are strongly behind the President's current trade deal proposal. So, paying workers a bit more isn't gonna significantly alter anything. The course has been set. We're heading down that road.

So why not just raise it to $100/hr and eliminate poverty altogether?

Are you seriously frightened they'll raise Minimum Wage to $100 an hr? If so, why?

I'm pointing out that claiming a MW increase never costs jobs is ludicrous. If that were true, why not just raise it to $100/hr and eliminate poverty altogether? The fact that no one wants to deal with the question is telling.

 

[hadit]

And again i'll reiterate, no businesses go under because of Minimum Wage. I am not aware of a single business that closed due to Minimum Wage. But if anyone can show me otherwise, i'll check it out.

Then raise it to $100/hr and eliminate poverty.

 

[hadit]

And teenagers will find it just a bit harder to get that first job, and unemployment among the young will increase just a bit more, but we don't care about that, because we feel good about ourselves. And again, why not just raise it to $100/hr?

All that's gonna happen regardless of paying workers better. We've got Millions & Millions of Illegals invading. Good-paying jobs are gonna become harder & harder to find. And once this current President's disastrous trade deal is passed, American Workers will struggle even more.

And btw, your beloved Republicans are strongly behind the President's current trade deal proposal. So, paying workers a bit more isn't gonna significantly alter anything. The course has been set. We're heading down that road.

again more negative posters

We need solutions

Not criticism.

The only solution is to fight for what you want and need. American Workers need to organize and become a powerful force again. You don't get what you want and need because you ask greedy Corporate fat Cats nicely. You have to create some leverage. Otherwise, they'll shit on you. That's just the way it is. It's all about the greed. You must be new here. So, welcome to America.

The best way to get leverage is to increase your value to the boss. Simply fighting for and demanding more goodies doesn't work. If you're just an easily replaced cog in the machine, you have no leverage. Be the highest producer, have the best on time record, and most of all, constantly learn new skills. Then you have leverage and will move up the ladder. If you do a job that can easily be replaced by a robot that will work cheaper and do a better job than you do, keep an eye over your shoulder, because you have zero leverage.

That's one way to create leverage, but there are other ways too.

It's the BEST way. It makes you valuable to your employer, not a target.

 

[hadit]

Just now, I saw another report about the topic of minimum wage increase. This one was on CNN, hosted by Julie Banderas. She was talking to Scott Gamm, of HelpSaveMyDollars.com, a financial website focused on helping consumers save and learn about money. They were talking about the recent 14-1 vote by the city of Los Angeles to raise the minimum wage to $15 by 2020.

Scott might be well versed on various aspects pertaining to consumer finances but, on the minimum wage raise, he is waaay off the mark. He said three things about the minimum wage raise topic. And he was WRONG on all three. Gamm merely recited the 3 most commonly heard (and programmed) descriptions about minimum wage raises.

1. He said it would cause jobs to be lost. FALSE! Employers function with a number of employees that bring them the most income/profit. They CANNOT reduce staff. Any more or less employees results in SALES and income reduction. Layoffs result in losses, not gains.

2. He (and Banderas too) said prices would be raised (or fees created) to compensate for the wage losses, and these losses would just be "passed on" to the customers. More FALSE! scare talk. Businesses CANNOT raise prices because they are already fixed at a market price, related to maximization of sales/income. Any change in price (up or down) results in reduction of SALES and income.

3. He said businesses will move away from LA. FALSE! (in most cases). Does Gamm think that closing down a business and moving to another location can be done scott (no pun intended) free ? Depending on the business, moving costs can vary from just barely economical, to completely UNeconomical, and the latter is much more often the case. Imagine a machine shop with over 100 large production machines, having to pack then all up and move miles away. Some businesses could do it. Not many.

So here's the real crux of all this. As in 1000 other media reports I've seen on minimum wage increases, the most important aspect of this is NEVER MENTIONED. Not a word. That is the increase in DISPOSABLE INCOME resulting in INCREASES SALES$$$. All businesses get this, and generally it far outweighs labor increases, since the number of wage raised consumers (not just those at the minimum wage) by far outnumbers any one employer's workers who are getting wage increases.

Then there's also the fact that many business, while receiving this big SALES boost, do NOT have any wage loss at all. These are businesses who are mom & pop and have no employees, those whose workers are all working just on sales commission (car lots, furniture, real estate, insurance, etc), and third, those with skilled workers (ex. machine shops) whose workers all already get well over $15 hour, or whatever the MW would be raised to.

I think back to when I owned a business. I paid my commission salespeople $350/hour (in 2015 dollars), and they still were only receiving 15% of the sale. In all, I made fine profits and expanded the business. Biggest downer ? All the people who called in and said > "Sorry. I can't afford it." Of course they can't. Not one somebody out there is paying them a low minimum wage. To be successful in business, you have a lot fo things to do. But you can't do anything, if the public around you doesn't have money in their pockets to buy what you're trying to sell.

This is why Conservatives who support raising the MW nationwide, outnumber Conservatives who don't, 54% to 44%.

Minimum wage laws cannot create jobs, they can ONLY outlaw them. Minimum wage laws demand that workers willing to accept wages less than the minimum wage are barred from such contracts. It is compulsory unemployment.

There is no escape from the objective fact of economic reality that minimum wage laws devalue wages. You simply cannot avoid devaluing wages when you make $1/hr work cost the same as $15/hr work.

Adding new dollars to the economy by increasing the minimum wage beyond what the work is worth is not the same thing as creating new wealth. Minimum wage laws always result in inflation. They necessarily must.

These realities are inescapable, and it is why minimum wage ponzi schemes ALWAYS fail.

How has Minimum Wage failed? Businesses seem to be surviving and thriving. Haven't observed any closing because they had to pay Workers Minimum Wage.

What you HAVE seen, though, are more teenagers unable to find summer time work because the cheap jobs they used to do are gone. They used to be able to pick up spending money and get work experience by pumping gas or ushering in a movie theater. Not any more. This trend will continue as we price such jobs out of the market.

Seriously, don't be so frightened that the fat cats are gonna have to pay struggling workers more. They don't need your sympathy. The Walmart and McDonalds top brass will always be Multimillionaires. They're gonna make it. I promise.

When did I say anything about them? I'm talking about kids having a hard time finding starter jobs, and you're carrying on about the business owners.

 

[hadit]

Don't shed too many tears. Top management who run the show, will always be Multimillionaires. If Burger King and Walmart go belly-up tomorrow, their top brass will be just fine. They'll still have their private yachts, private jets, and their kids will still attend top elite private schools. They won't be effected at all. So now they have to pay their workers more. Oh well, too bad. I think they'll survive.

I thought you were a supporter of free enterprise.

I don't shed tears for the most fortunate among us. They'll be fine, regardless of having to pay workers a little more. They'll still have their yachts, jets, and their kids will still attend top elite private schools. They'll be fine. The sky won't fall. I promise.

They'll be fine, regardless of having to pay workers a little more. They'll still have their yachts.....

I hate those rich guys and their yachts! We should create a tax on those yachts, show those bastards. What could go wrong?

I don't hate em. I'm sick of their silly whining. Just pay up and shut up. Their yachts and jets will still be there.

Yeah, tax those yachts and jets.
So the liberals can stop whining.

They tried it once. It didn't work. In fact, guess what it did....

Here's a hint. It destroyed the American yacht industry. Lot of good paying jobs, gone so liberals can feel good about themselves.

 

[hadit]

You need to raise it again, yes?

It wasn't successful the last time it was tried. If it was a success the last time, you wouldn't need to establish yet a higher minimum wage this time, right?

So it FAILED the last time you tried it.
So you haven't been to Detroit, Cleveland, or Pittsburgh lately? If you had, you'd have seen the devaluing effect that minimum wage has on other wages.

Look, even if we were to make the minimum wage $100k/year, in the long run, provided there is no additional government interference, the whole thing would shake out to just about where we are now, except that the same retarded cranks who now gripe that 15k/year is insufficient for the poor, will then claim that 100k/year is insufficient for the poor.

You want to know why that is?

It is because the realities of minimum wage laws are inescapable; they are why minimum wage ponzi schemes ALWAYS fail.

Tell me, what is your exact objection to basing a worker's wages solely upon what that worker's work is worth?

Minimum Wage has never caused a Business to go under. Never. Anyone who claims they have, is flat-out lying. Businesses go under for many reasons. But Minimum Wage ain't one of em.

So you haven't been to Detroit, Cleveland, or Pittsburgh lately? Fine.

If you had, you'd have seen the devaluing effect that minimum wage has on other wages. You'd have seen the boarded up store fronts.

You can't deny the jobs lost, the devaluation of wages, the inflation... and the combined, synergistic effect on the very folks you claim benefit from minimum wage laws. If you could, you wouldn't now be rationalizing an increase in the minimum wage.

Oh wait... you are in denial of those realities.

Tell me, what is your exact objection to basing a worker's wages solely upon what that worker's work is worth?

Show me just one business that went under due to Minimum Wage. It doesn't happen. Businesses go under for many reasons. But Minimum Wage isn't one of those reasons.

Yes, yes, yes. I understand. You never saw a cat turn into a dog, so evolution never happened. You never saw a man on the moon, so it never happened. And you never saw a businesses go under because of minimum wage, so it never happened.

There's literally no arguing with that kind of obtuse denial of reality.

So instead tell me... what is your exact objection to basing a worker's wage solely upon the value of that worker's work?

Well, still haven't seen anyone show even one business going out of business because of Minimum Wage. I mean if it happens so often, surely you or someone can show at least one example.

The reality is, Minimum Wage doesn't cause businesses to go under. It never has and never will. The sky won't fall. That's just fact.

That's because we've been smart about it and kept the increases small enough to basically not matter. Jack it too high too fast, though, and the equation changes. This is the ugly truth you guys don't want to deal with. I keep asking why we don't just raise it to $100/hr and eliminate poverty altogether. The reason you don't want to answer that question is because it illustrates that raising the MW too high too fast WILL destroy jobs, so OBVIOUSLY it's not a universally good idea to "just raise it, and keep raising it".

 

[hadit]

Still haven't seen a shred of evidence proving the Minimum Wage has ever caused a single business in America to go out of business. So why so much anger and fear? Seems very silly and irrational to me.

That's because you're not approaching the situation in a serious and rational manner. I've already pointed out several jobs teenagers used to rely on to get some spending money and job experience that are gone, in part because they aren't worth the higher minimum wage. Keep raising it and we'll see more jobs disappear in like manner.

 

[hadit]

If I was a governor of a state with a legislature stupid enough to pass a $30/hr minimum wage, I would totally sign it into law. Just to shut you morons up once and for all.

Hey if someone can get $30, good for them. America's all about gettin that paper. That's what America's all about.

The reason I know that even you don't believe the bullshit your spinning is that you will never answer a very simple question: If minimum wage mandates have no negative repercussions, why stop at $30/hr? Why not just legislate a $100/hr minimum wage? If you think that is ridiculous, please explain why.

Well obviously there has to be some reasonable contemplation involved.

Why?

But again i ask, show us all the examples of businesses going under due to the Minimum Wage. Because i've never observed even one example of that happening. If you can't afford to pay Minimum Wage, you need to shut things down. It wasn't meant to be for you.

In terms of real value, relative to inflation, minimum wage has been going down. So if anything, they've been getting relief over the last twenty or thirty years. There's no evidence that minimum wage increases will have negative consequences because they've been carefully, and deliberately, kept lagging behind the rate of inflation.

That is correct, and is the only reason some can continue running around parroting the line that no businesses ever close because mandated labor costs are too high. Sure, go ahead and raise it a little bit. It will only cost a few jobs. Raise it a lot, and it will cost a lot of jobs. Like I said before, if raising it doesn't hurt anything, jack to $100/hr.

And again, the other point you keep ignoring, what do you say to workers who want to do work that isn't worth $30/hr? I'm not that really concerned about the fate of the businesses in question. They can, and will, find a workaround for dumbass regulations. They always do. It's the workers who are told they can no longer work who will suffer.

If labor costs get too high and a business can't cut expenses elsewhere or sell more product to make up the difference, guess what?

 

[thereisnospoon]

Minimum wage laws demand that workers willing to accept wages less than the minimum wage are barred from such contracts. Minimum wage laws cannot create jobs, they can ONLY outlaw them. Statutory minimum wage is compulsory unemployment.

You simply cannot avoid devaluing wages when you make $1/hr work cost the same as $15/hr work. There is no escape from the objective fact of economic reality that minimum wage laws devalue wages.

Adding new dollars to the economy by increasing the minimum wage beyond what the work is worth is not the same thing as creating new wealth. Minimum wage laws necessarily result in inflation.

I find it instructive that not one minimum wage proponent on this board is willing to discuss the reasons they object to basing a workers wages solely upon what that worker's work is worth.

It is set at their worth, let's say payroll is set at 30 percent of sales....when the business sales go up, so should payroll, year after year.....still 30 percent of sales.....

Are you saying when it was set at 30 percent of sales 10 years ago that it should stay at that flat amount and not go up even though over the 10 years the business is now doing 50 percent more in sales than it did?

Yes. I understand you might wish to base wages upon what a worker is worth... or what they want... or what they "need"... or what their bosses make... or "percent of sales"... etc.

I'm asking you why do you object to basing a workers wages solely upon what that worker's work is worth.

I am basing it on the employee's work, and it's called "productivity", and it is BASED on Sales generated per employee for the hours they work.

Fine.

I'm asking you: Do you object to basing a workers wages solely upon what that worker's work is worth?

If so, please explain why you object to basing a workers wages solely upon what that worker's work is worth.

There are a couple of factors in how one decides to pay their employees...

What they are WORTH is absolutely the main factor, I will go in to the other after I address their worth.

What they are "worth" is how much can they produce (sell) an hour....it's not an arbitrary number that is pulled out of my head or the sky...and once I have decided that X amount in sales produced an hour by my minimum wage employees, (and an X amount in sales produced for my higher level employees as well) is profitable for me, compared with what my employees cost me to pay them...I can then come up with a budget on what payroll will cost me on a yearly basis, and this is what the 30% of sales is, which I mentioned earlier in my example.... (note, it could be 20% of my sales that is my budget for payroll, or it could be 40% of my sales for payroll and I could still be profitable, this will vary by business and their other business expenses)

So, let's say I was satisfied with my projected profits when payroll for my employees came to 30% of my planned sales...some being paid more than minimum (because they produced more/thus worth more) and some being paid minimum, but together with the other payroll taxes and benefits I have to pay per employee it comes to 30% of my sales of my total payroll.....

As my sales increase for the business, which means my employees are producing more in sales per hour for me, I can give them raises and still be profitable.

As an example:

If 10 years ago, my business did $10,000,000 in gross sales, and spending 30% of my gross sales on payroll was profitable for me, which is a $300,000 a year budget for payroll....

and in the present day my business 10 years later is doing $15,000,000 in sales, my 30% budget for payroll would now be $450,000.... my employee's pay would go up from 10 years ago tremendously, since they are producing 50% more per hour than they did previously....

However, I could find that my 10 employees can not produce 50% MORE per hour than they did 10 years ago....they are too busy and end up walking customers because there is not enough help on the sales floor to give good customer service....and their productivity could only increase by 30% over that period.....then I would need to HIRE another employee or two, to pick up the slack, then I could only give 30% in raises for my employees over the 10 year period, because the remaining money from my payroll budget, would be needed to pay, my new hires.

No...Get rid of the ones who are not producing.
You are leaving out important factors. Such as the cost of labor in medical insurance, mandatory state and federal deductions, etc....Also, the cost of materials, vehicles, insurance, utilities, administration, computer programs to keep track of accounting, legal costs, accounting costs.....Everything on which a business must spend to maintain the same level of operations continues to increase in cost.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Minimum wage laws demand that workers willing to accept wages less than the minimum wage are barred from such contracts. Minimum wage laws cannot create jobs, they can ONLY outlaw them. Statutory minimum wage is compulsory unemployment.

You simply cannot avoid devaluing wages when you make $1/hr work cost the same as $15/hr work. There is no escape from the objective fact of economic reality that minimum wage laws devalue wages.

Adding new dollars to the economy by increasing the minimum wage beyond what the work is worth is not the same thing as creating new wealth. Minimum wage laws necessarily result in inflation.

I find it instructive that not one minimum wage proponent on this board is willing to discuss the reasons they object to basing a workers wages solely upon what that worker's work is worth.

It is set at their worth, let's say payroll is set at 30 percent of sales....when the business sales go up, so should payroll, year after year.....still 30 percent of sales.....

Are you saying when it was set at 30 percent of sales 10 years ago that it should stay at that flat amount and not go up even though over the 10 years the business is now doing 50 percent more in sales than it did?

Yes. I understand you might wish to base wages upon what a worker is worth... or what they want... or what they "need"... or what their bosses make... or "percent of sales"... etc.

I'm asking you why do you object to basing a workers wages solely upon what that worker's work is worth.

I am basing it on the employee's work, and it's called "productivity", and it is BASED on Sales generated per employee for the hours they work.

Can't do that because it doesn't work that way..
For example. Lets say have a dry cleaning business. Its the only one in town....Then another opens(B). That one is taking business away because the owner in attempt to build customer base is performing his services at break even for a limited time. he can do that because tax law permits new businesses to declare a net loss for their first five years in business. Meanwhile the original cleaners(A) has been forced to lower his prices in order to compete.....(B) starts to struggle. (B) cuts hours. (A) is experiencing an uptick in sales. BUT.......(A) has been forced by his client's expectations to keep his prices low because (B) is still in town.....(A)'s sales have INCREASED but his profits have not...The workers are logging more hours and producing more work, but the business is not making more money.
Employees are not compensated based on their needs, their status( the single parent argument), or their wants. The work is compensated based on skill, production and the ability of the work to assist the business in turning a profit.

You have a tough situation here in your example....with this kind of competition, no doubt about it....if you would like to hire me as a consultant, I would be happy to go on down and do such!

Off hand, I'd say it is time to get out of Dodge and move your business...J/K!

With an uptick in business, but lower profit MARGIN (percentage), you can still pull in, more profit DOLLARS...

Retailers do this all the time, when they have promotional Sales....your profit margin is lower because you are selling them at a lower price, but your increased sales gives you the increased profit dollars....IF your sales have increased enough....and your fixed expenses like rent, insurance, supplies have stayed the same.... you can "make it"....

Plus, your Turn has increased, which calculates in to your ROI (return on investment)

Turn, is turn over of your product...how quickly can you sell what you have bought....this gives you the cash back quicker, to buy more goods to sell....

hmmmm, I'm not certain at all what that would be in the dry cleaning business because I have never thought about it...I only know inside out "Retail", but I could figure it out....

Also, your customer service provided with the competition right next door so to speak, is critical in you being able to maintain a little higher price than next door....and maintain your customer base.

Retailers do this all the time, when they have promotional Sales
Large retailers use 'loss leaders' to entice shoppers to enter their stores.
Small business cannot do this.
Now, I agree that...well your theory seems to align with "a quick nickel is better than a slow dollar"...
Yes some businesses such as in home service types can probably get by with this although, most of these are micro-businesses where the owner does all of the work. That owner may have to log more hours.
It appears as though we've gotten of track here.
For example, all of the points you mentioned are valid. However they would exist only in a perfect world. Example number one is min wage workers are not the most conscientious on the planet. Also, they are not the most reliable or efficient.
Quite frankly a dramatic increase in wages would have to be met with an equally dramatic increase in productivity.