Marriage, non-marriage and ultimatums

[BDBoop]

I just read a thread in a galaxy far, far away where a woman had been in a relationship for 3-4 years, living with the guy for one. She wants marriage, he has already been married and is very reluctant to go down that path again.

I don't think ultimatums work, but on the other hand is it an ultimatum to say "Y'know, you said we were on a certain path, but now you say we aren't and you don't know when we will be, SO: if you don't know in a year, I'm moving on."

Also - should she really care? It actually IS "just a piece of paper." They may be together in 20 years, they may not. That would have nothing to do with whether or not they ever got married.

 

[Unkotare]

It is NOT "just a piece of paper."

 

[Foxfyre]

I would not hold out much hope for the success of marriage that was created via ultimatum.

In a traditional marriage, unless both cannot imagine life without the other, unless they share the important goals, and their differences are not a handicap in the relationship--such as he loves the mountains and hates the beach while she loves the beach and hates the mountains, etc.--if they do not share reiigious views when religion is important to one or both, if they do not share political views if one or the other is passionate about that, and certainly if they do not both want children or not and share philosophies of child rearing, they are not soul mates and will always be aware that something is lacking or not quite right in the relationship. Also if one is a passionate musician while the other could care less and will resent or be annoyed by the considerable time devoted to that or some other passion are also factors to consider. Unless there is mutual admiration and respect and appreciation for each other's gifts and passions, they should not marry.

And a physical attraction is also necessary but is secondary to all the rest. Many have been drawn together by pure lust and the sex was great, but that is never sufficient to hold a marriage together.

And the couple should have prepared themselves to support themselves plus a family, or prolonged financial stress, most especially if the problems are due to the choices of one not shared by the other, can tear them apart. And though not necessarily always a deal breaker, it really really helps if each person in the relationship feels a part of the other's family.

Finally I agree that the marriage contract is not 'just a piece of paper'. Without the commitment to forego all others, and join together as one entity with the expectation that it will be for the rest of their lives, the relationship will almost always be on tenuous grounds with little or no incentive to stick it out through the tough times.

 

[BDBoop]

But if one of them thinks it's just a piece of paper, and the other thinks it is THE most important piece of paper in the world, then it doesn't matter how well everything else matches.

 

[Foxfyre]

But if one of them thinks it's just a piece of paper, and the other thinks it is THE most important piece of paper in the world, then it doesn't matter how well everything else matches.

The one who thinks it is just a piece of paper I think at some level is not willing to enter into a lifetime commitment which is what all marriages should be. That should be an immediate red flag to the other that this is probably not his/her soul mate.

 

[signelect]

Any time a relationship has a built in "out" then it is not much of a relationship. <My wife and I have a piece of paper we agreed on a commitment. If you just want to hang out and have sex, go for it but don't delude yourself into thinking hou are married.

 

[BDBoop]

I'm one of those who think that (FOR ME) the marriage itself is just as important as either party to the marriage. Protect, defend; all that. HONOR the vows.

However. I have seen people who didn't do the courthouse or church, and honored the vows.

 

[whitehall]

Marriage is a legal contract similar to a mortgage. If you default the government enters the picture. Would you have it any other way?

 

[Foxfyre]

I'm one of those who think that (FOR ME) the marriage itself is just as important as either party to the marriage. Protect, defend; all that. HONOR the vows.

However. I have seen people who didn't do the courthouse or church, and honored the vows.

It is not the paper nor the ceremony nor the particular routine or ritual that makes the marriage. It is the commitment to forego all others and join yourself in a permanent relationship with another person. Such commitment includes providing legal protections for the other person and any children that could result from the marriage and that requires legalizing it however that might be done.

The marriage laws in all 50 states exist for one reason and one reason only: to protect any children who might choose to enter into marriage and/or any children that result from the marriage. Otherwise there is absolutely no valid reason for age restrictions, a waiting period, the blood tests, limitation on close blood relationships, or the mutual responsibility for each other debts, etc. that are included or inferred in the contract.

But again, the one who resists making a commitent to take on such obligations, is a person who wants freedom more than he or she wants the relationship. And that is not a good prescription for a lasting union.

 

[BDBoop]

I am not sure I agree, Foxfyre. There are many good reasons people have for wishing not to allow the government to mix it up in their relationship.

A couple of days ago, I posted to one of our members that I know a couple in WI that had to get divorced in order to get the help they needed. They promptly jumped the broom, and still celebrate their 'real' wedding anniversary. They are no longer married, but remain just as committed.

 

[BDBoop]

For those in the discussion; does your particular faith or complete lack thereof play into your answer at all?

 

[High_Gravity]

I just read a thread in a galaxy far, far away where a woman had been in a relationship for 3-4 years, living with the guy for one. She wants marriage, he has already been married and is very reluctant to go down that path again.

I don't think ultimatums work, but on the other hand is it an ultimatum to say "Y'know, you said we were on a certain path, but now you say we aren't and you don't know when we will be, SO: if you don't know in a year, I'm moving on."

Also - should she really care? It actually IS "just a piece of paper." They may be together in 20 years, they may not. That would have nothing to do with whether or not they ever got married.

Pressuring a person to marry you isn't going to work, I don't believe in marriage anymore but I do think when someone proposes it should be because they want to, not because they feel obligated or pressured into it.

 

[BDBoop]

No, of course it isn't.

What I'm asking is, is his refusal to marry a logical, valid reason for ending the relationship.

I think a lot of good people get thrown away because they don't want to take that step.

I personally would expect to be informed up front, so I could decide if I wanted this person to be anything more than a friend.

 

[Foxfyre]

I am not sure I agree, Foxfyre. There are many good reasons people have for wishing not to allow the government to mix it up in their relationship.

A couple of days ago, I posted to one of our members that I know a couple in WI that had to get divorced in order to get the help they needed. They promptly jumped the broom, and still celebrate their 'real' wedding anniversary. They are no longer married, but remain just as committed.

I too know people who separate in order to access government benefits that they can't get as a married couple. But surely you see that is not an objection to government involvement in their relationship, but rather a ploy to get other people's money. I fully understand why they do it, but I have no illusions whatsoever what the motives are. They are fully willing to give up one group of protections the marriage contract offers in return for access to other benefits.

Of course for a conservative like me, I HATE such a system that tears families apart rather than provides incentive to stay together.

 

[BDBoop]

Agreed.

Independent of that - can you see why people would just choose NOT to marry? It's happening a lot more these days.

 

[High_Gravity]

No, of course it isn't.

What I'm asking is, is his refusal to marry a logical, valid reason for ending the relationship.

I think a lot of good people get thrown away because they don't want to take that step.

I personally would expect to be informed up front, so I could decide if I wanted this person to be anything more than a friend.

For some people yes, if their partner won't budge on the marriage thing they will leave, I lost an ex girlfriend that way.

 

[High_Gravity]

Agreed.

Independent of that - can you see why people would just choose NOT to marry? It's happening a lot more these days.

Most definently is, I won't do it again because going through a divorce is a hellish lengthy process I want no part of, I had to live with my ex wife for the last year of our marriage basically as room mates because the Military would not let me just throw her out, it was a living hell.

 

[BDBoop]

Have you been in love since then?

The thing about marriage - ... all those peaks and valleys. There has to at least be affection and respect at the base of it. Love is almost secondary, if you're going to make it through the long haul, it takes a lot of different ingredients.

 

[Foxfyre]

Agreed.

Independent of that - can you see why people would just choose NOT to marry? It's happening a lot more these days.

Sure. I can most especailly understand how somebody once burned in a bad marriage would be very reluctant to risk that again. But government policies that reward those who do not marry or who separate and punishes those who do marry are bad for society, bad for the children, bad for the country, and that should be corrected.

 

[High_Gravity]

Have you been in love since then?

The thing about marriage - ... all those peaks and valleys. There has to at least be affection and respect at the base of it. Love is almost secondary, if you're going to make it through the long haul, it takes a lot of different ingredients.

Sure I have. I just have no desire to go through that divorce process again, I don't want to be one of those old guys with 3 or 4 marriages under his belt.